Re: Coronavirus
 

Except it isn't. There is lots of peer reviewed papers that show that the protection of those that have recovered lasts longer than those with the vaccines alone.

The latest version was not mentioned by me until my last post. Do you have any evidence that a survivor of a non Omicron version of C-19 has suffered ill effects from the Omicron version?

Worse in what way? I haven't attempted to sow any seeds. I have simply reported the facts that have been stated in peer review journals that have been published all over the world. I am happy with the decisions that I have made. I am happy for others to make theirs. I simply object to people accusing a huge swathe of people by using language and groups that are way too wide.

What cloak of respectability?

I seek to make an argument without name calling and by asking questions, rather than misrepresenting what others have clearly stated. I appreciate that, online, that is quite rare. You don't seem to have learned that I always take the contrary position when making such comments. That may not necessarily reflect my position, I am simply debating issues.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Okay, here we go again.
Perhaps you plain forgot or maybe you're just being disingenuous again but a couple of days ago you said:
That part in parenthesis was because you remembered the previous discussion about natural immunity and a vax being better than just one, but where it was also shown that - as I said just above - only some may have good immunity (if surviving a potential killer virus) but may still have problems with long covid and their natural immunity is still going to wane, more quickly for some than others.
No I don't since it hasn't existed long enough for that to be known. Obviously that also means you have no evidence to back your suggestion that they would recover from Omicron too. I would, however, think it reasonable that what is known to be true of the earlier variants is likely to be true of the latest one.
What you've actually been doing is giving little snippets of what's been found and reported. Like your original claim that natural immunity was better than the vax, as if it were a universal truth rather than the dangerously incomplete information it was.

Just to refresh a memory, some have died so we never get to know what antibodies they may have gotten to 'protect' themselves and in a third of those recovered antibodies dropped to undetectable levels. It's just not good advice to make the claims you have made without mentioning the other inconveniences.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It depends the evolution of the virus. If it starts to become relatively benign then the a combination of gained immunity and vaccine immunity may lead to a herd immunity. Conversely, if a more virulent strain emerges, then the naysayers will impair herd immunity and be deserving scapegoats.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's been with us a week. Boris sounded a bit rattled yesterday. Precaution seems a sensible strategy given the exponential growth rate.

Re: Coronavirus
 

And some would describe Nicola Sturgeon as the opposite of Boris but has there been a noticeably much smaller number of hospitalizations, deaths and overall cases in Scotland because of the never ending mask mandate? Boris promised (rightly or wrongly) they would go back to some normality and set a date and a target which they did in summer. I don't remember mass hospitalizations or huge death numbers because of this. Yes there were mass cases coming out of some events but it still didn't really lead to much and vaccinations were working. Some would have us wearing masks forever because, well just in case and our Asian friends really don't mind it so why should we. Why should you be horrified at the lack of mask wearing recently in London, it was not mandated so therefore personal choice and clearly despite what we are led to believe the majority do not want to wear them.

Re: "Re: Coronavirus
 

I don't know that anyone considers the unvaccinated a scapegoat. They're not helping for reasons noted above but, even if everyone was vaccinated, the coronavirus would continue.

Re: "Re: Coronavirus
 

True

Re: Coronavirus
 

Where is this data?

Most people I know who got covid pre-vaccine still went and got the vaccine after. Especially as two of them went to hospital.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Boris is rattled by a lot of things at the moment.

He's probably worried about what the plan is for this years Christmas Party.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Good question.

Japan: population 126 million (approx double Britain) deaths 18,737
Britain: population 68 million deaths 146,477

If Britain had the same population as Japan, Britain's deaths would be 271,000 (approx) compared to Japan's deaths of 19,000 (approx). Something our Asian friends are doing is saving hundreds of thousands of lives. If you're wondering why should we? this is good place to focus, because it will save many many lives.

Re: Coronavirus
 

this Israeli study says that natural immunity is superior to the 2 shot vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

Re: Coronavirus
 

This may well be true, and there may be multiple studies that confirm it. The problem with such findings is that some members of the public will assume that a natural immune response is sufficient/superior to fight an infection, when in fact the infection will kill many more of those unvaccinated than vaccinated.

Re: "Re: Coronavirus
 

Read some of your posts recently? You frequently blame everything on the 'unvaxxed' - (not including those that are unvaccinated for genuine reasons... remember? - this for just one.. https://britishexpats.com/forum/mapl.../ )
:hysterical:

(**Unvaxxed = anti vax - according to your posts, theoretically, but you appear to mean anyone unvaccinated.. :p )

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well that would be a good point IF hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved by simply wearing a mask, but i don't buy it. Are we saying that Japan is as good as it is because of masks alone? There is i'm sure many other factors involved. Their culture is totally different to that of the UK for example and therefore impossible to compare. In most instances around the world when masks have been introduced or reintroduced we don't see the curve flattening much and most always we see more restrictions added to compliment the masks.

Re: "Re: Coronavirus
 

My position is:

- the unvaxxed, for any reason, should not go out in public as they are a hazard to themselves and to others
- the unvaxxed place an unfair burden on society by choosing to put themselves at risk and then dying in hospital in beds that could be used by people who are in need through no fault of their own

I do not scapegoat the unvaxxed. That is, I do not hold them to be solely responsible for the pandemic.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Although obesity in the UK is 27% and in Japan it is only 4%.

The average Jap is much fitter.

There is a high correlation between Covid and obesity.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The trouble is that Boris Johnson places his personal popularity as an additional factor in his decision making. If he hadn't relaxed mask-wearing, and promised that relaxations would be irrevocable, then he wouldn't now be facing hostility at the potential reintroduction of distancing measures. He's a typical profit-taker, declaring profits before the contract is actually delivered. So while there may or may not be significant differences in the cases, hospitalisations and deaths between Scotland and England (I don't know), there is a world of difference in the attitude towards tackling the virus. Sturgeon has been consistent. Johnson has flipped and flapped about like a prize salmon. It's not helpful, and the cynic in me wonders if his latest Omicron announcements are just to get rid of the Downing Street party headlines.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's not the only reason, but there's such a wide gap that it has to be part of the reason. And of course it's not just Japan, most Korea, Thailand, Taiwan and others have surpressed infection and therefore deaths. Nobody likes wearing a mask or social distancing, but are they that onerous if lives are saved?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well the timing of that was spot on... professional idiot Dominic Raab gets the numbers wrong twice as he admits there are just TEN people in hospital in the UK with Omicron.

The vaccination rollout is the key thing Johnson thinks he won political capital out of this year... so in the middle of sleaze&corruption&cheese&wine headlines, why not have another crack at a big vaccination boris-boost to get the folks back on side and deflect all the negative press?

Re: Coronavirus
 

That would account for some of the fourteen fold difference.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think the obesity correlation is very, very significant. Look at the US deaths for further corroboration of that.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's certainly significant and we'll established. However, there's a level of denial going on when Western nations attribute lower mortality in Asia to lack of obesity, different culture or different DNA. There is a massive disparity in mortality, and part of that is due to less rigorous mask wearing. That's not to say masks are infallible, the type most of us wear (and the way we wear them) have limited efficacy. But when 99% of the population wear masks that's a significant barrier to transmission compared to say 90% wearing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I thought Asians have been wearing masks for a long time because of SMOG. So prolly they will continue to wear them, uncomfortable or not.
Soon westerners will wear them for SMOG too.
SMOG causes so many bronchial and lung diseases, and its just painful to breath in all that dirty air.
Well, of course that is my just my own experience when I have to walk in smoggy areas, not scientifically verified.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I agree and I don't believe I have stated otherwise.

Re: Coronavirus
 

A google search will turn them up easily. Alternatively, have a look at Dr. John Campbell's videos on YouTube. He usually presents both sides of the debate and provides links to all of the sources he refers to.

I have never suggested that they did anything wrong.

Re: Coronavirus
 

My understanding is that is more the cultural and societal norm to think of others and not wish to spread your cold/flu/C19 to them. Contrast is with the Western individualist approach of "my freedom and liberty is being eroded because I have to wear a mask and I don't care about the impact on others.". c.f America, United States of.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I actually posted that myself previously. It still says "not peer reviewed."

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...6bc32664ed.png
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1




One also had to consider that this was only found in the people who survived. Those who had died while achieving natural immunity didn't do so well.

Note that even in that conclusion a mix of delta and the vax is better again, so while some may argue natural immunity is better, being vaxxed is still better.
As well as those points above better immunity was only in some people. Obviously it wasn't better in the dead ones but older people, those with health conditions - unsurprisingly - didn't fare so well and also as I said earlier, a third of them had undetectable levels of antibodies.

Then there's the fact that Delta didn't really take a hold until this year while the vaccines were based on what went before. Had it emerged earlier, the vaccines may well have been adapted.

Honestly, I don't know why some are so keen at promoting natural immunity. Even the research that has positive news about it is carrying plenty of 'buts' and 'howevers' and then there's Natural News (a far-right, anti-vaccination conspiracy theory and fake news website known for promoting alternative medicine, pseudoscience, and far-right extremism) promoting natural immunity INSTEAD of vaccine immunity among its other claims of the vaccines killing almost a quarter as many of the death by covid figure and how Vitamin D could end Covid.

If a bunch of nutters who believe lizards are controlling the world and bleach is good for you are promoting a particular view about anything, we should all be double checking it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, at least we're not in Norway. LINK :(

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well that really is ridiculous!! that's the final straw! :thumbdown:

Re: Coronavirus
 

If you (the antivaxer, not you Bristol) want to place your faith in sticking horse dewormer up your jacksie then fill your boots. I'll be over here with the vaccines...

The antixvax crowd continue to stoop to new lows. A former colleague of mine and his wife were found dead in their home last week. No cause of death reported, police investigating. Amid the "thoughts and prayers" facebook posts, one particular supporter of Maxime Bernier, found time to suggest that they'd been killed by the vaccine. What a !tiwkcuF

Re: Coronavirus
 

Maybe they were killed by someone who had a hate on Antivaxers?

Re: Coronavirus
 

What did your response have to do with my comment that Asia has more smog and Asians wear more masks, have worn more masks and will continue to do so, as we will even of Covid clears up, we will do so because smog is getting worse. ?

What has that got to do with Americans cultural differences from Asians?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's not just smog, it's collectivism (not wishing to infect others) vs. individualism (with USA being the preeminent example of).

And thanks for joking about my friend who died last week. You're quite the wit.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well wat did they die from?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Interesting, I did not know that Americans were the preeminent example of selfish people in the whole world.

Collectivism vs Individualism. That is also quite a grand polarization, you know?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Where have you been? :lol:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Rand Paul is selfish enough on his own to balance out 1,000,000 citizens of anywhere else, and then there's Donald Trump ...

Re: Coronavirus
 

44 confirmed Omicron cases in BC. Out of those 44, only seven of the identified cases, including two in children under the age of 11, involved people who were not vaccinated. :eek:

Did the vaccination help to spread the virus?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Your understanding is correct.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Scientist on C4 News tonight sounding fairly worried about Omicron. He noted that Omicron may not push out Delta (which seems to be the theme since it's emergence) but co-exist with Delta and provide further opportunity for mutation.