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dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 1:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13080054)
Is Ontario short of hospital beds?

It doesn't matter. Taking a bed from someone else out of vanity is wrong regardless of how many there are. It's not like someone who smoked and is now taking up a bed with their cancer; the smoker smoked for pleasure, the helmetless motorcyclist got a buzz from riding. The unvaccinated person is just being a dick.

Danny B Dec 10th 2021 2:32 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080141)
It doesn't matter. Taking a bed from someone else out of vanity is wrong regardless of how many there are. It's not like someone who smoked and is now taking up a bed with their cancer; the smoker smoked for pleasure, the helmetless motorcyclist got a buzz from riding. The unvaccinated person is just being a dick.

Where do you stand on a team of hospital doctors treating intoxicated drivers that have crashed and need urgent medical care? Do they come before or after the unvaxxed?

scrubbedexpat099 Dec 10th 2021 2:37 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Obesity seems to be at the root of many medical issues.

Siouxie Dec 10th 2021 3:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080043)
The selfishness is not about contagion but about choosing to increase risk of hospitalization thereby depriving others of a needed bed. If unvaccinated people are willing to shoot themselves upon catching covid then, fair enough, that's reasonable exercise of free will although it's still not the act of a good person to turn oneself into a variant incubator.

Did you read the amount of people in hospital beds that are Vaccinated? Should they be shooting themselves if / when they catch covid as well? Variant incubation can occur in any member of the population, vaccinated or unvaccinated - that's the nature of a virus.. to mutate and vary in order to be able to pass onto another and survive.. :D

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 4:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13080154)
Where do you stand on a team of hospital doctors treating intoxicated drivers that have crashed and need urgent medical care? Do they come before or after the unvaxxed?


Before. I trust the triage person would shove the un-vaxxed out into the snow to accommodate the drunks (or people overdosing on drugs or people with a plastic Santa stuck up their arse).

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 4:14 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13080162)
Did you read the amount of people in hospital beds that are Vaccinated?

I read the post above, yes. There are few of them and one must sympathize with them as they have taken reasonable precautions to avoid that situation.

Almost Canadian Dec 10th 2021 4:41 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
So lovely to see that the intolerance of the so-called tolerant is alive and well.

Danny B Dec 10th 2021 5:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080175)
Before. I trust the triage person would shove the un-vaxxed out into the snow to accommodate the drunks (or people overdosing on drugs or people with a plastic Santa stuck up their arse).

LOL - I shouldn't feed the troll.
Perhaps you can come up with a 2021 equivalent of the 'yellow star of David' to hang above the hospital beds of the unvaxxed.

Almost Canadian Dec 10th 2021 6:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
The trouble that I have with the term "unvaxxed" it that it unfairly classes people together. What about those that have had C19 and recovered and already have protection that is as good as those with the vaccination and which has been shown to last longer (yes, I know that those that have recovered and have been vaxxed are better protected than either of the other groups)? What about those that cannot take the vaccine for other health reasons?

scrubbedexpat099 Dec 10th 2021 6:38 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I take it as meaning those that are not up to date, currently that would be those who have not had the booster, when the 4th jab comes in those who have not had that.

I agree not the nicest term.

JamesM Dec 10th 2021 6:56 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13080154)
Where do you stand on a team of hospital doctors treating intoxicated drivers that have crashed and need urgent medical care? Do they come before or after the unvaxxed?

Did they have winter tyres on or not?

Gozit Dec 10th 2021 7:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13080212)
The trouble that I have with the term "unvaxxed" it that it unfairly classes people together. What about those that have had C19 and recovered and already have protection that is as good as those with the vaccination and which has been shown to last longer (yes, I know that those that have recovered and have been vaxxed are better protected than either of the other groups)? What about those that cannot take the vaccine for other health reasons?

We have someone like this on our forum that has admitted so in a previous post just one or two pages back.

To all those ridiculing people who do not have the vaccination for one reason or another, remember the people you are vilifying could be your own friends, family, or others dear to you.

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 7:32 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13080207)
LOL - I shouldn't feed the troll.
Perhaps you can come up with a 2021 equivalent of the 'yellow star of David' to hang above the hospital beds of the unvaxxed.

On the one hand people who were persecuted and subjected to attempts to wipe them off the face of the earth for no fault of their own. On the other hand we have some self-indulgent twats who, in my view, can reasonably be denied service where there is competition for that service, on the basis of their twattery. The cases are not comparable.

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 7:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13080212)
The trouble that I have with the term "unvaxxed" it that it unfairly classes people together. What about those that have had C19 and recovered and already have protection that is as good as those with the vaccination and which has been shown to last longer (yes, I know that those that have recovered and have been vaxxed are better protected than either of the other groups)? What about those that cannot take the vaccine for other health reasons?

It's too much trouble to type "voluntarily unvaccinated" every time, though I did so above. If I use the term "unvaxxed", or some variant thereof, you may assume it to mean "unvaccinated by choice". Similarly, "free" healthcare should be taken to mean "free at the point of service" and not "gifted from God".

scrubbedexpat099 Dec 10th 2021 7:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080226)
On the one hand people who were persecuted and subjected to attempts to wipe them off the face of the earth for no fault of their own. On the other hand we have some self-indulgent twats who, in my view, can reasonably be denied service where there is competition for that service, on the basis of their twattery. The cases are not comparable.

I have some sympathy for this view, you do have the issue as to where this goes, where do you draw the line, what about the body positive movement for example.

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 7:40 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Gozit (Post 13080221)
We have someone like this on our forum that has admitted so in a previous post just one or two pages back.

To all those ridiculing people who do not have the vaccination for one reason or another, remember the people you are vilifying could be your own friends, family, or others dear to you.

If they were voluntarily un-vaxxed I suppose they'd still be family. One would just stop speaking to them or seeing them, like my aunt who married outside her race They'd still be family even if they voted for Brexit or Trump.

dbd33 Dec 10th 2021 7:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 13080230)
I have some sympathy for this view, you do have the issue as to where this goes, where do you draw the line, what about the body positive movement for example.

Well, I do my hair toss, check my nails. I think people who have bodies in extreme formats likely have a medical reason for that, it's not a simple choice. Vaccination is a different circumstance in that people who don't have the vaccination have no reason not to do so except that some, vaccinated, TV host or politician told them not to do it. They're just being tiresome.

Danny B Dec 10th 2021 9:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 13080156)
Obesity seems to be at the root of many medical issues.

You're hiding the unvaccinated under your floorboards, aren't you?

scrubbedexpat099 Dec 10th 2021 10:11 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13080257)
You're hiding the unvaccinated under your floorboards, aren't you?

I know a couple of people who I am pretty sure have not been vaccinated but most have

printer Dec 11th 2021 1:31 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13080038)
:nod:
And then complaining about its use :lol:


Not so much holes as just recognising practicalities. You can't keep your mask over your mouth while eating and drinking and it's probably not good while exercising in the gym, breathing difficulty and so on, especially as sweat and heavy breathing is going to clog up the mask. There's little comparable issue with a mask at the cinema - unless it's at one of those places where what you're watching makes you sweat and breathe heavily. :rofl:

Yes but that's exactly what we have here though, for months now. Must wear a mask while entering or moving around a pub, restaurant, coffee shop and gym to name a few but basically if its indoors its masks and even things like outdoor markets are seeing mask requirements. Cinemas, theatres and the like have all been part of that general rule and don't forget we still have social distancing here although it's not quite so strictly enforced as it was. The daily rags over there are now coming up with their own suggestion now...WFP which is work from pub, rather than from home. The logic is that you cannot go to the office in case of the virus spread but you can go to the pub and mingle so why not just work from the pub and all is good. :rofl:

Shard Dec 11th 2021 12:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 13080230)
I have some sympathy for this view, you do have the issue as to where this goes, where do you draw the line, what about the body positive movement for example.

You draw the line at a highly transmissable virus.

JamesM Dec 11th 2021 3:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080228)
It's too much trouble to type "voluntarily unvaccinated" every time, though I did so above. If I use the term "unvaxxed", or some variant thereof, you may assume it to mean "unvaccinated by choice". Similarly, "free" healthcare should be taken to mean "free at the point of service" and not "gifted from God".

I think the term anti-vaxx is better then unvaxx.


Siouxie Dec 11th 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by JamesM (Post 13080411)
I think the term anti-vaxx is better then unvaxx.

:goodpost: Exactly... which then separates the 'will nots' from the 'cannots'... a huge difference!

BristolUK Dec 12th 2021 5:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13080212)
...What about those that have had C19 and recovered and already have protection that is as good as those with the vaccination

That was only ever true for some people and completely ignored those who had a bout of Covid but would still suffer from returning bouts or long covid.
However, for Omicron:

Mutations in the virus mean its spike protein now looks quite different from that of the original Wuhan strain that all current vaccines were designed to target. This means that antibodies from both previous infection and vaccination will be less efficient at intercepting Omicron...Studies show that a booster dose increases the levels of antibodies significantly above the level seen after two doses, which some hope means waning immunity will occur more slowly after a third dose (though insufficient time has passed to determine if this is the case). Early studies also suggest that the quality of antibodies is higher following a booster.

BristolUK Dec 12th 2021 6:29 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by JamesM (Post 13080411)
I think the term anti-vaxx is better then unvaxx.


Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13080417)
:goodpost: Exactly... which then separates the 'will nots' from the 'cannots'... a huge difference!

It's a fair point but there exists another group. I don't know if there's a name...the 'not convinced' or 'wait and see' folk. Actually, now I think of it, I have seen the expression 'vaccine hesitant' before.

Bayern Munich and Germany footballer Joshua Kimmich had reservations but insisted he was not a "Covid denier or an anti-vaxxer" and would likely eventually take it.

Quite frankly I've been astonished at the number of footballers reported to have been unvaxxed. Something like 32% in the premier league. Of course they're super fit, young and healthy; constantly monitored in games and out of games for any and every potential health issue.

But in terms of their ability to function at their normal levels the risk is surely greater than the rest of us. A modest bout of Covid for most is likely to involve a few days off work and/or isolating and then back into the swing of things if lucky.

For a footballer, that same modest bout disrupts their peak condition levels and they find themselves out of the team for a few matches. That, in turn, can affect their careers in many ways.

Interestingly, Kimmich tested positive in November but is still unable to return to training as he battles with the side effects of the virus, which has taken its toll on the 26-year-old's body. In a statement released on Bayern's official site, Kimmich had said: 'I'm happy my self-isolation caused by the coronavirus has ended. 'I'm doing very well, but I'm not yet able to train fully due to slight infiltrations in my lungs. 'I'll therefore do some rehabilitative training and can't wait to be fully back in action in January.'


Shard Dec 12th 2021 7:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
It seems the biggest question right now is how virulent is the Omicron strain. It's already known that it's highly transmissible and capable of vaccine evasion (breakthrough). It takes several weeks of widespread transmission to establish virulence. Government's are playing it safe with precautions, which is the right policy. The public is split on those that are prepared to gamble (assuming low virulence) their health and those that are not.

Nand Dec 12th 2021 9:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I just wish all these self righteous completely vaxed people would wear tight fitting masks, take social distancing very seriously and quit spreading all their Covid germs around to everybody that have not had the vaccine.

dbd33 Dec 13th 2021 1:13 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Nand (Post 13080746)
I just wish all these self righteous completely vaxed people would wear tight fitting masks, take social distancing very seriously and quit spreading all their Covid germs around to everybody that have not had the vaccine.

I do do all of the above and so does everyone I work with and everyone I see in public. I hope I don't come into contact with anyone who hasn't been vaccinated as they should not be out and about but, if I do, they'll be six feet away per local custom.

printer Dec 13th 2021 1:14 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13080726)
It seems the biggest question right now is how virulent is the Omicron strain. It's already known that it's highly transmissible and capable of vaccine evasion (breakthrough). It takes several weeks of widespread transmission to establish virulence. Government's are playing it safe with precautions, which is the right policy. The public is split on those that are prepared to gamble (assuming low virulence) their health and those that are not.

Yes some governments are and some maybe not and of course we even have different rules not just around the world but within countries. The US is of course huge but UK not so much yet four different areas all with their own take on what is needed and then there are the hoops one has to jump through to enter or even leave some countries and this of course has caused confusion and cancellations while people get to grips with what is and isn't allowed. Even though we are told this is a worldwide problem and no country is safe from the virus there is no "one world, one rule" What's deemed ok in some places is downright against all regulations in others. If we are told the best way to get through this is for everyone to get a booster against the Omicron what does that say for the poorer countries that cannot even get a decent percentage of their population vaccinated with a first shot let alone 3.

dbd33 Dec 13th 2021 1:17 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13080771)
If we are told the best way to get through this is for everyone to get a booster against the Omicron what does that say for the poorer countries that cannot even get a decent percentage of their population vaccinated with a first shot let alone 3.

Lots of people in poorer countries will go unvaccinated and die as a result, that's tragedy. Choosing not to be vaccinated and then dying as a result is comedy.

Jingsamichty Dec 13th 2021 8:00 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Please don't refer to "UK" measures. Health is a devolved matter and Boris Johnson is only talking about measures in England. In fact, he is simply reintroducing measures in England which are already in place everywhere else in the UK. Measures which he voluntarily relaxed in order to appease the "civil liberties" nutjobs in his party. (As an aside, the same "civil liberties" nutjobs who just voted to criminalise protests...)

I'm in Scotland where the requirement to wear masks in indoor environments (except when sitting at your desk or a pub/restaurant table) has never been relaxed. But I was in London recently and was horrified at the almost-universal lack of mask wearing in shops, pubs and on the Tube.

Shard Dec 13th 2021 9:33 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Nand (Post 13080746)
I just wish all these self righteous completely vaxed people would wear tight fitting masks, take social distancing very seriously and quit spreading all their Covid germs around to everybody that have not had the vaccine.

Presumably you are setting a good example yourself.

Shard Dec 13th 2021 9:38 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 13080812)
Please don't refer to "UK" measures. Health is a devolved matter and Boris Johnson is only talking about measures in England. In fact, he is simply reintroducing measures in England which are already in place everywhere else in the UK. Measures which he voluntarily relaxed in order to appease the "civil liberties" nutjobs in his party. (As an aside, the same "civil liberties" nutjobs who just voted to criminalise protests...)

I'm in Scotland where the requirement to wear masks in indoor environments (except when sitting at your desk or a pub/restaurant table) has never been relaxed. But I was in London recently and was horrified at the almost-universal lack of mask wearing in shops, pubs and on the Tube.

It is bizarre isn't it. I think the media has been in remiss in not reporting the conveyor belt of death. Around 150 per day, each and every day, perhaps if more was made of it more folk would take the risks seriously. One needs only compare Britain to Japan to get a sense of how inadequate our approach has been.

Nand Dec 13th 2021 11:18 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13080841)
Presumably you are setting a good example yourself.

Haven't been out of the apartment in nearly two years now. Thanks for the good advice.

I like living life, no matter how it stacks up.

🐠🌸🕊💛🕊🌸🐠

ChrisBan Dec 13th 2021 1:51 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13080842)
It is bizarre isn't it. I think the media has been in remiss in not reporting the conveyor belt of death. Around 150 per day, each and every day, perhaps if more was made of it more folk would take the risks seriously. One needs only compare Britain to Japan to get a sense of how inadequate our approach has been.

seemingly people in Asia are more open to mask wearing without some belief that it’s some master government plan to hide faces etc. Media in the UK and the western world have got more excitement running stories about the screaming ones at protests who think being forced to wear a mask is an erosion of civil liberties. So this I think then starts causing doubts amongst normally rational minds.

I did a quick google about Japan COVID and there are a couple articles there that suggest it could be genetics that have resulted in lower impacts on Japan. Don’t know the sources, and haven’t looked into it further so have no idea the validity of the study. It’s certainly not the first time I’ve heard this as a potential reason for lower cases and deaths in some Asian countries.

Almost Canadian Dec 13th 2021 1:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13080228)
It's too much trouble to type "voluntarily unvaccinated" every time, though I did so above. If I use the term "unvaxxed", or some variant thereof, you may assume it to mean "unvaccinated by choice". Similarly, "free" healthcare should be taken to mean "free at the point of service" and not "gifted from God".

OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.

Almost Canadian Dec 13th 2021 1:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13080695)
That was only ever true for some people and completely ignored those who had a bout of Covid but would still suffer from returning bouts or long covid.
However, for Omicron:

Until they catch Omicron too. Having recovered from their earlier bout, I'd suggest that they would recover from Omicron too, but I accept you won't accept that. Long covid affects them, it doesn't affect others.

BristolUK Dec 13th 2021 4:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 13080812)
Please don't refer to "UK" measures. Health is a devolved matter and Boris Johnson is only talking about measures in England.

Good point.


Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13080905)
Until they catch Omicron too. Having recovered from their earlier bout, I'd suggest that they would recover from Omicron too, but I accept you won't accept that. Long covid affects them, it doesn't affect others.

It's not that I won't accept that, I'm just pointing out what you said last time - about recovery from earlier strains offering better protection than the vaccine was false information and incomplete according to experts and research and now you are making a similar claim about the latest version.

In many ways you are worse than the anti-vax conspiracy nutters because you sew seeds of doubt under your cloak of respectability.

Nand Dec 13th 2021 4:26 pm

"Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13080903)
OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.

Yes, the need to find a scapegoat is laughable, the only one to blame is SarsCov2.

Danny B Dec 13th 2021 5:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Omicron infecting 200,000 in UK every day and so far only one death. Hopefully a storm in a tea cup.


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