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-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

JamesM Jan 28th 2022 5:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...73f30db23c.png
Here is the death rate.

Shard Jan 28th 2022 7:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Well the cases are still fairly high. Deaths down to 277 today, after being in the 300s for a while. At that rate it's about 100,000 deaths per year, so it does seem an odd time to relax all restrictions (so called Plan B) in England. Flu (& pneumonia) seem to account for 30,000 deaths per year (UK) and that seems to be a level at which the government could justify "living with it". Perhaps there projections for later in the year suggest that, who knows. They are too busy worrying about who is having a piece of birthday cake or holding a glass of wine in 2020.

BristolUK Jan 29th 2022 1:00 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13091035)
Well the cases are still fairly high. Deaths down to 277 today, after being in the 300s for a while. At that rate it's about 100,000 deaths per year, so it does seem an odd time to relax all restrictions (so called Plan B) in England. Flu (& pneumonia) seem to account for 30,000 deaths per year (UK) and that seems to be a level at which the government could justify "living with it".

Yes down to 277 in today's Guardian Bar. With almost 90,000 cases.
Obviously there's a delay and the 277 are not from the 90k, but it's still a guide. Perhaps you could say 277 future deaths from today's 90,000. Or one for every 324 cases.

Just looking for some old bars. May last year 2829 cases, 9 deaths. One in every 314.

I can't find any others - I'm sure I posted 3 or 4 but it is a nice illustration of the lopsided nature of "like a cold" Omicron in that there's a similar relationship when comparing the number of new cases of previous variants with those about to die and the numbers of Omicron new cases and those dying.

Every 300 or so new cases seem to result in one death. In terms of Death, getting Omicron seems to be just as bad as other variants. :sneaky:


BristolUK Jan 29th 2022 11:57 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
I heard CBC News last night reporting more covid deaths in Ontario for January than any other month.


Mordko Jan 29th 2022 12:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Triple vaxxed have very low chances of having to be hospitalized and even less of ending up in ICUs. A fourth dose of the vaccine reduces probability of severe illness by another factor of 2.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/...cid=mm7104e3_x
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ab-adults.html

At this point we are having lockdowns and other restrictions purely to protect the unvaxxed and reduce the excessive burden on ICUs.

Shard Jan 29th 2022 12:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091157)
Triple vaxxed have very low chances of having to be hospitalized and even less of ending up in ICUs. A fourth dose of the vaccine reduces probability of severe illness by another factor of 2.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/...cid=mm7104e3_x
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ab-adults.html

At this point we are having lockdowns and other restrictions purely to protect the unvaxxed and reduce the excessive burden on ICUs.

Lockdowns, what lockdowns ?!

BristolUK Jan 29th 2022 4:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13091163)
Lockdowns, what lockdowns ?!

Measures.
In hindsight we made a huge mistake calling it lockdown. Or, rather, it was okay when it really was a lockdown right at the beginning - out for exercise, groceries, medical/pharmacy only, for example

Governments all over had phases, stages, levels or whatever they were calling the variations but unfortunately 'lockdown' seems to have stuck even if it meant everything open but proof of vax required or everything open but contact details needed. Any kind of measure and it stayed as lockdown phase/stage 3 etc

Along the way, we (NB) had specific area lockdowns while most of the rest of province was fully open.


Danny B Jan 29th 2022 5:28 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I have a good feeling regarding the future of COVID.
Provided no one escapes North Korea and brings a heavily mutated variant with them, I think this pandemic will officially end in 2022 and we can get back to a new normal.

Seems like Denmark is one of the 1st countries to scrap all the restrictions, I'm sure many more will follow suit in the coming weeks / months.

Roll on Summer of '22 :thumbsup:

Shard Jan 29th 2022 11:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13091234)
Measures.
In hindsight we made a huge mistake calling it lockdown. Or, rather, it was okay when it really was a lockdown right at the beginning - out for exercise, groceries, medical/pharmacy only, for example

Governments all over had phases, stages, levels or whatever they were calling the variations but unfortunately 'lockdown' seems to have stuck even if it meant everything open but proof of vax required or everything open but contact details needed. Any kind of measure and it stayed as lockdown phase/stage 3 etc

Along the way, we (NB) had specific area lockdowns while most of the rest of province was fully open.

Measures is a good word. Lockdown does have a bit of a menacing ring.

Shard Jan 29th 2022 11:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Clonker (Post 13091254)
It's frustrating to me that many of the restrictions (as someone else mentioned) are to protect the people who aren't vaccinated. And in turn they get sick and stretch the resources of hospitals, causing people with other afflictions to have delayed health care or none at all.

A bit frustrating, but then there are those medically unable to be vaccinated, and those that are poorly informed. In addition, protecting the unvaxed benefits everyone as they are less likely to become incubators for a new strain.

printer Jan 29th 2022 11:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Clonker (Post 13091254)
It's frustrating to me that many of the restrictions (as someone else mentioned) are to protect the people who aren't vaccinated. And in turn they get sick and stretch the resources of hospitals, causing people with other afflictions to have delayed health care or none at all.

This argument will run and run but who wants to face up to the fact that at no time will we ever see 100% vaccination rate in any province. Therefore we will always have unvaccinated regardless of whether its personal choice or medically unable. In the meantime England has removed pretty much ALL restrictions and has never made any move towards vaccinating kids under 12 alongside an extremely limited vax passport scheme and as yet no mandated vaccination for NHS staff. Yet in BC we have one of the best vax rates, we are getting kids 5 and up vaccinated and it seems that if you are not vaccinated you are unable to partake in many things and possibly have no job. But of course we are all following the same science right? Are we to assume that in England for example there is no issue with delayed health care because i bet my right arm that the NHS is under pressure as much now as in any winter season. Whatever your stance on vaccination it doesn't appear that every country agrees with the division that has been created over here, in fact in today's "woke" society i am surprised we are allowed to call the unvaccinated names and make suggestions that they should stay home, lose their jobs or not get the healthcare they may need, good god we are chastised for making jokes about people, we can't make things gender specific in case we offend, we are forever being told that we should be kind and cyber bullying is not on yet here we are still chastising the unvaccinated.
Talking about scientific data it has been discussed before that wearing an N95 mask is the best protection you can get and some groups have even suggested that these should be mandated. Of course this is perhaps going a bit far BUT when you turn up at our local hospital the first thing they do is make you remove whatever mask you are wearing and put on a medical surgical type mask, there are no buts. A guy recently complained as he was wearing a far better mask (N95) yet they refused to allow him in with it on, he had to change it for one of theirs. On the other hand when you go out in general its a free for all including those ridiculous small face shields that don't do anything yet they are perfectly acceptable inside stores and malls.

BristolUK Jan 30th 2022 12:44 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13091344)
... In the meantime England has removed pretty much ALL restrictions and has never made any move towards vaccinating kids under 12 alongside an extremely limited vax passport scheme and as yet no mandated vaccination for NHS staff.

Just looking at Worldometer. Total deaths in the UK 155,613. In close to two years. An average 213 deaths per day. About half this period, no vaccine available. So there were "measures" to curtail spread instead.

A couple of posts above, daily deaths "down" to 277. Today's Guardian stats bar updates daily deaths to 296.

Daily deaths appear to be at least as high currently as at any time when there were more severe variants and no vaccine. Indeed New Scientist magazine reports that on the 18th Jan 2022, the daily total of covid deaths was the most since February 2021.

Someone needs to explain why it's acceptable to have more people dying daily than was previously the case.

Shard Jan 30th 2022 1:00 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13091355)
Just looking at Worldometer. Total deaths in the UK 155,613. In close to two years. An average 213 deaths per day. About half this period, no vaccine available. So there were "measures" to curtail spread instead.

A couple of posts above, daily deaths "down" to 277. Today's Guardian stats bar updates daily deaths to 296.

Daily deaths appear to be at least as high currently as at any time when there were more severe variants and no vaccine. Indeed New Scientist magazine reports that on the 18th Jan 2022, the daily total of covid deaths was the most since February 2021.

Someone needs to explain why it's acceptable to have more people dying daily than was previously the case.

It is surprising that there is so little focus on the high death numbers. At the start of the pandemic, Chris Witty made a commend that deaths peaking at 20,000 would be a "good result" and everyone was appalled that it could be that many. Now it's running about 2000 deaths per week and the media and government could not seem to care less. In a sense we have been habituated to these kind of numbers. It's probably the media more than the government that is at fault here.




BristolUK Jan 30th 2022 3:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13091423)
It is surprising that there is so little focus on the high death numbers. At the start of the pandemic, Chris Witty made a commend that deaths peaking at 20,000 would be a "good result" and everyone was appalled that it could be that many. Now it's running about 2000 deaths per week and the media and government could not seem to care less. In a sense we have been habituated to these kind of numbers. It's probably the media more than the government that is at fault here.

I think that's going to draw the same answers I've given previously - it depends on your media source. But you're obviously aware of this issue and you likely have more media access than government access.

I recall past discussions - post vaccines - where the topic was all about increasing case numbers but that deaths were not rising in the same way. The world and his wife were able to look at the figures quoted in the media and draw that simple and logical conclusion.

The same media has the same categories of figures from the same sources. Why can't a similarly logical and simple conclusion be made?

That fact I mentioned - the UK deaths figure was higher on Jan 18th than any day since Feb 2021. That was actually reported on Sky News apparently. It didn't even need calculating. A quick google shows standard UK media outlets, Mail, Mirror, Metro, BBC, Guardian etc all covered it.

Perhaps people just aren't paying attention.

Shard Jan 30th 2022 3:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
My criticism of the media is that they are not making much of a case. They report the statistics and may highlight noteworthy comparisons, but they don't emphasise the numbers of deaths in any meaningful way. They pin the government down on what would be a acceptable level of deaths or criticize the current high levels. It's all very passive, as this is the pandemic, and that there's not much we can do about it, and by the way France and Germany are just as bad, and how possibly can we compare ourselves the Japanese? The media doesn't even break down who is dying and why? In the first few months, the first year even, a reactive "hope for the best approach" might have been adequate, but at this stage they ought to be mounting a more vigorous campaign of accountability. People aren't paying attention because it's the same dry abstract statistics day after day, no real narrative or drama.

Mordko Jan 30th 2022 9:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
We might not see 100% vaccination but there is more to be done and we can get to 99.99999%:

1. Require vaccine passport for entry to any business establishment including grocery stores. The most ardent unvaxxed could still obtain food by ordering online for delivery or curbside pickup, bearing the added cost in money or time.
2. Require proof of vaccination to renew a driver's licence and/or motor vehicle sticker. Driving is, after all, a privilege. The same goes for other licensed activities such as hunting and fishing.

I suspect those two steps would almost eliminate the problem of the unvaxxed. Then add on a meaningful tax, perhaps the greater of $2,500 or a 25% surcharge on provincial income tax due. And an extra surcharge for the unvaxxed who end up in hospitals, say to cover 50% of the actual costs.

dbd33 Jan 30th 2022 9:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091529)
We might not see 100% vaccination but there is more to be done and we can get to 99.99999%:

1. Require vaccine passport for entry to any business establishment including grocery stores. The most ardent unvaxxed could still obtain food by ordering online for delivery or curbside pickup, bearing the added cost in money or time.
2. Require proof of vaccination to renew a driver's licence and/or motor vehicle sticker. Driving is, after all, a privilege. The same goes for other licensed activities such as hunting and fishing.

I suspect those two steps would almost eliminate the problem of the unvaxxed. Then add on a meaningful tax, perhaps the greater of $2,500 or a 25% surcharge on provincial income tax due. And an extra surcharge for the unvaxxed who end up in hospitals, say to cover 50% of the actual costs.

This all made sense until the final sentence, charging at the hospital is difficult to administer and arguably unjust. If an un-vaxxed person turns up with a broken leg and has no money, what is the hospital to do? It's not the US, the hospital can't pack the patient off to the county hospital, they have to treat the patient or leave him or her to deal with the injury in the street. (Note that, being a TERF, I would not be troubled by turning away someone who wanted to use some weird shit pronoun).

BristolUK Jan 30th 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13091451)
My criticism of the media is that they are not making much of a case. They report the statistics and may highlight noteworthy comparisons, but they don't emphasise the numbers of deaths in any meaningful way.

But they did for the 18th January figures. You can't get much more stark than the highest in nearly a year and it's not as if it was an absolute freak of a number just for that day.

Shard Jan 31st 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091529)
We might not see 100% vaccination but there is more to be done and we can get to 99.99999%:

1. Require vaccine passport for entry to any business establishment including grocery stores. The most ardent unvaxxed could still obtain food by ordering online for delivery or curbside pickup, bearing the added cost in money or time.
2. Require proof of vaccination to renew a driver's licence and/or motor vehicle sticker. Driving is, after all, a privilege. The same goes for other licensed activities such as hunting and fishing.

I suspect those two steps would almost eliminate the problem of the unvaxxed. Then add on a meaningful tax, perhaps the greater of $2,500 or a 25% surcharge on provincial income tax due. And an extra surcharge for the unvaxxed who end up in hospitals, say to cover 50% of the actual costs.

Can we conclude that you're a pro-vaxxer ?! :lol:

Danny B Jan 31st 2022 5:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I found this gem from 11 months ago. Oh how I wish it were true...



printer Jan 31st 2022 9:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091529)
We might not see 100% vaccination but there is more to be done and we can get to 99.99999%:

1. Require vaccine passport for entry to any business establishment including grocery stores. The most ardent unvaxxed could still obtain food by ordering online for delivery or curbside pickup, bearing the added cost in money or time.
2. Require proof of vaccination to renew a driver's licence and/or motor vehicle sticker. Driving is, after all, a privilege. The same goes for other licensed activities such as hunting and fishing.

I suspect those two steps would almost eliminate the problem of the unvaxxed. Then add on a meaningful tax, perhaps the greater of $2,500 or a 25% surcharge on provincial income tax due. And an extra surcharge for the unvaxxed who end up in hospitals, say to cover 50% of the actual costs.

Of course this is a suggestion that would be unlikely to do anything about the hard line anti vaxers and would drive a greater wedge between those on both sides of the argument and would no doubt lead to many more demonstrations and anger out on the streets yet at the same time doing little to seriously affect the numbers.
Our great leader who is sheltering from the crowds because he apparently now has COVID said this according to a local news source, and i quote: Trudeau says every Canadian is sick of the pandemic but it will not end because protesters demand it, but by people getting vaccinated.
So this will end when we all get vaccinated according to him except if we can still contract it and spread it even after being vaccinated how is this so? I could accept the fact that if only unvaccinated were getting ill and only unvaccinated were requiring hospital treatment then we should be looking at vaccination rates as an absolute but while we still have vaccinated people in hospital and ICU it's not the case.

BristolUK Jan 31st 2022 10:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13091844)
So this will end when we all get vaccinated according to him except if we can still contract it and spread it even after being vaccinated how is this so?

It depends what you expect by End. If you mean no virus then it probably won't end. If you mean the kind of measures that have been in place the last couple of years coming to an end then, yes, maybe because those who are vaccinated spread lower levels of the virus to the next person.


I could accept the fact that if only unvaccinated were getting ill and only unvaccinated were requiring hospital treatment then we should be looking at vaccination rates as an absolute but while we still have vaccinated people in hospital and ICU it's not the case.
Typically most covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated. That on it's own indicates where the problem lies and when you factor in that typically the majority of populations are vaccinated - close to 80% double jabbed in Canada - you can see that something like two-thirds of covid patients are drawn from only a fifth of the population. That's quite a difference.

The aim from the beginning has been to limit the strain on hospitals, particularly ICU, with hospitals reporting they are at or near to capacity it's not difficult to see that 100% vaccinated would lead to most of the unvaccinated currently hospitalised not getting that far - because fewer people would be passing on high enough infection levels to hospitalise and with even more vaccinated than currently this would also reduce the vaccinated numbers too, for the same reason.

Of course some bright spark would come along then and say all the patients in hospital are vaccinated and hold this up as proof it doesn't work. :rolleyes:

Gozit Feb 1st 2022 2:46 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13091765)
I found this gem from 11 months ago. Oh how I wish it were true...

https://twitter.com/aginnt/status/14...hu3JOZuhQ4UX1g

Just proof of why people really are losing trust in the "experts"...

Mordko Feb 1st 2022 2:56 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Gozit (Post 13091882)
Just proof of why people really are losing trust in the "experts"...

Why? Because of talk show hosts?

Mordko Feb 1st 2022 3:07 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

So this will end when we all get vaccinated according to him except if we can still contract it and spread it even after being vaccinated how is this so? I could accept the fact that if only unvaccinated were getting ill and only unvaccinated were requiring hospital treatment then we should be looking at vaccination rates as an absolute but while we still have vaccinated people in hospital and ICU it's not the case.
That’s because you don’t understand basic concepts, such as “probability”. School system’s fault. Neither does Trudeau but his handlers told him what to say.

Its not really complicated though:

1. Lockdowns are bad. Kids don’t get to study, businesses go bust, etc.
2. Lockdowns happen when ICUs are at risk of being overwhelmed.
3. Probability of ending in ICU is much, much, much less if your vaccination status is up to date.
4. Keeping vaccination status up to date is good for kids, businesses, budget, anyone who is tired of lockdowns.
5. If you love lockdowns, hate kids, high unemployment and want to pay lots of taxes in the future than vaxxing is bad for you.

printer Feb 1st 2022 3:52 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091884)
That’s because you don’t understand basic concepts, such as “probability”. School system’s fault. Neither does Trudeau but his handlers told him what to say.

Its not really complicated though:

1. Lockdowns are bad. Kids don’t get to study, businesses go bust, etc.
2. Lockdowns happen when ICUs are at risk of being overwhelmed.
3. Probability of ending in ICU is much, much, much less if your vaccination status is up to date.
4. Keeping vaccination status up to date is good for kids, businesses, budget, anyone who is tired of lockdowns.
5. If you love lockdowns, hate kids, high unemployment and want to pay lots of taxes in the future than vaxxing is bad for you.

So what are you saying? Any country that has a poor vaccination rate (ours apparently for you isn't even enough) is looking at lockdowns, high taxes, high unemployment and the rest. Sorry but you seem to be deluded here because i am pretty sure we are amongst the top in vaccination stats and still it's not considered good enough. This strategy you are looking at is not achievable and is not even being considered in other countries. UK has just announced it will NOT mandate NHS staff to get vaccinated and risk losing their jobs particularly as they need all the staff they can get yet here we are on some crusade to send anyone who isn't vaccinated to some place far away from society because they are outcasts.

Mordko Feb 1st 2022 4:28 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13091889)
So what are you saying? Any country that has a poor vaccination rate (ours apparently for you isn't even enough) is looking at lockdowns, high taxes, high unemployment and the rest. Sorry but you seem to be deluded here because i am pretty sure we are amongst the top in vaccination stats and still it's not considered good enough. This strategy you are looking at is not achievable and is not even being considered in other countries. UK has just announced it will NOT mandate NHS staff to get vaccinated and risk losing their jobs particularly as they need all the staff they can get yet here we are on some crusade to send anyone who isn't vaccinated to some place far away from society because they are outcasts.

Contrary to rumours, UK isn’t the only “other country”. Austria is making Covid vaccination mandatory as of today. Italy made it mandatory for over 50s. Numerous countries are “considering” and will. Non-covid vaccination is already mandatory in Ontario for kids to go to school. What we have now is a public health emergency, so justification is stronger.

Yes, we are looking at lockdowns. Just had one.

Yes, we are going to have even higher taxes. And fewer services. Our debt has grown astronomically and payments will form a large chunk of the budget as the interest rate begins to rise. The more Covid, closures and handouts, the higher future taxes.

Yes, the longer closures and restrictions go on for, the higher the number of bankruptcies (we’ve had hundreds of thousands so far).

Encouraging vaccination should be designed to get people to vaccinate. Its up to them if they choose to be “outcasts” and chip in more to cover the extra costs they would be imposing on others.

BristolUK Feb 1st 2022 11:17 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
I'm a bit late with this but...


BristolUK Feb 1st 2022 11:19 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13091765)
I found this gem from 11 months ago. Oh how I wish it were true...

https://twitter.com/aginnt/status/14...hu3JOZuhQ4UX1g


Originally Posted by Gozit (Post 13091882)
Just proof of why people really are losing trust in the "experts"...

I was unable to get the video to play but having googled, from all appearances the quote seems to be that of a MSNBC presenter rather than an expert.

Rete Feb 1st 2022 12:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13091844)
Of course this is a suggestion that would be unlikely to do anything about the hard line anti vaxers and would drive a greater wedge between those on both sides of the argument and would no doubt lead to many more demonstrations and anger out on the streets yet at the same time doing little to seriously affect the numbers.
Our great leader who is sheltering from the crowds because he apparently now has COVID said this according to a local news source, and i quote: Trudeau says every Canadian is sick of the pandemic but it will not end because protesters demand it, but by people getting vaccinated.
So this will end when we all get vaccinated according to him except if we can still contract it and spread it even after being vaccinated how is this so? I could accept the fact that if only unvaccinated were getting ill and only unvaccinated were requiring hospital treatment then we should be looking at vaccination rates as an absolute but while we still have vaccinated people in hospital and ICU it's not the case.

I've been fully vaccinated and boostered. Recently I was tested for Covid and found positive. So yes, myself and thousands of others still can get the virus. In my case, it was the variant Omicron and it was a very mild case but I could have passed it to others and did ... my brother-in-law.


Danny B Feb 1st 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
This new variant is going to piss off the anti-vaxxers even more...

https://globalnews.ca/news/8582784/o...ectious-study/


The BA.2 subvariant of the Omicron coronavirus variant, which has quickly taken over in Denmark, is more transmissible than the more common BA.1 and more able to infect vaccinated people, a Danish study has found.

Danny B Feb 1st 2022 2:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13091951)
I was unable to get the video to play but having googled, from all appearances the quote seems to be that of a MSNBC presenter rather than an expert.

Exactly, a lot of what was said in the media as fact last year can now be classified as misinformation.

Vaccines stopping the virus spread, and cloth masks helping to prevent the spread have both been found not to be accurate anymore. If you said this on TV 12 months ago you'd be cancelled.

Shard Feb 1st 2022 3:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
My understanding is that although vaccination does not perfectly contain the virus, it does lead to a lower viral load (due to increased immune response) and therfore reduces transmission. In other words, someone is more likely to get Omicron from some without vaccination than with vaccination. Not sure of the extent of this difference.

BristolUK Feb 1st 2022 4:16 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13092001)
This new variant is going to piss off the anti-vaxxers even more...
"The BA.2 subvariant of the Omicron coronavirus variant, which has quickly taken over in Denmark, is more transmissible than the more common BA.1 and more able to infect vaccinated people, a Danish study has found."

On the other hand, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townsend the WHO says Vaccines are equally effective against BA.2. :lol:


Mordko Feb 1st 2022 9:00 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13092015)
My understanding is that although vaccination does not perfectly contain the virus, it does lead to a lower viral load (due to increased immune response) and therfore reduces transmission. In other words, someone is more likely to get Omicron from some without vaccination than with vaccination. Not sure of the extent of this difference.

Yep.

printer Feb 1st 2022 10:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091893)
Contrary to rumours, UK isn’t the only “other country”. Austria is making Covid vaccination mandatory as of today. Italy made it mandatory for over 50s. Numerous countries are “considering” and will. Non-covid vaccination is already mandatory in Ontario for kids to go to school. What we have now is a public health emergency, so justification is stronger.

Yes, we are looking at lockdowns. Just had one.

Yes, we are going to have even higher taxes. And fewer services. Our debt has grown astronomically and payments will form a large chunk of the budget as the interest rate begins to rise. The more Covid, closures and handouts, the higher future taxes.

Yes, the longer closures and restrictions go on for, the higher the number of bankruptcies (we’ve had hundreds of thousands so far).

Encouraging vaccination should be designed to get people to vaccinate. Its up to them if they choose to be “outcasts” and chip in more to cover the extra costs they would be imposing on others.

All the above has already occurred across many continents due the the original strain and then Delta and much has been learned since those days including vaccination yet now we are at a stage where 2 years in, lock downs and other severe costly methods are being pushed to one side as it was clear that these are crippling to just about every sector of society. What's already happened has cost governments millions and of course we are all on the hook for this via taxes or loss of services. We cannot continue on this path anymore and cannot expect to just because a small percentage are not fully vaccinated.
US are now looking at the prospect together with Pfizer of vaccinating under 5's, is this age group even affected to the extent a vaccination is considered? I am sure the WHO will reiterate their stance that poorer countries need to get vaccinated before rich ones start their next rollout. What about the massive cost to our government due to their extreme measures in some areas, why aren't they looking at spending this money on our health service, you know, the one that we are all protecting by getting 3 shots.

Mordko Feb 2nd 2022 3:34 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13092079)
All the above has already occurred across many continents due the the original strain and then Delta and much has been learned since those days including vaccination yet now we are at a stage where 2 years in, lock downs and other severe costly methods are being pushed to one side as it was clear that these are crippling to just about every sector of society. What's already happened has cost governments millions and of course we are all on the hook for this via taxes or loss of services. We cannot continue on this path anymore and cannot expect to just because a small percentage are not fully vaccinated.
US are now looking at the prospect together with Pfizer of vaccinating under 5's, is this age group even affected to the extent a vaccination is considered? I am sure the WHO will reiterate their stance that poorer countries need to get vaccinated before rich ones start their next rollout. What about the massive cost to our government due to their extreme measures in some areas, why aren't they looking at spending this money on our health service, you know, the one that we are all protecting by getting 3 shots.

Yes, it already happened.

The bit you seem to be missing is that while reducing the infection rate is laudable that's a secondary priority. The top priority is easing the strain on hospitals and their personnel and allowing care facilities to run at an acceptable level. And if that isn’t achieved then there will be a lot more shutdowns and bankruptcies and debt. And that mandating vaccination is a painless way of reducing the burden on healthcare. Much better than shutting schools, killing the vulnerable and bankrupting businesses and escalating debt even further.

We’ve just opened a bit in Ontario. Numbers will start going up and the burden on hospitals will increase. The system is fragile. We have very clear findings such as the CDC's that vaccination can substantially reduce one's risk of needing hospitalization, especially intensive care. Authorities would be remiss if they didn’t mandate further measures to expand vaccination. And, frankly, they are not doing enough in this respect.

Spending more money on health services won’t do a thing in the short term. Buildings, equipment, trained nurses and doctors - it all takes time. So, the only 2 options in the short term are:

1. measures to expand vaccination
2. more shutdowns

Take your pick.

printer Feb 2nd 2022 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13092095)
Yes, it already happened.

The bit you seem to be missing is that while reducing the infection rate is laudable that's a secondary priority. The top priority is easing the strain on hospitals and their personnel and allowing care facilities to run at an acceptable level. And if that isn’t achieved then there will be a lot more shutdowns and bankruptcies and debt. And that mandating vaccination is a painless way of reducing the burden on healthcare. Much better than shutting schools, killing the vulnerable and bankrupting businesses and escalating debt even further.

We’ve just opened a bit in Ontario. Numbers will start going up and the burden on hospitals will increase. The system is fragile. We have very clear findings such as the CDC's that vaccination can substantially reduce one's risk of needing hospitalization, especially intensive care. Authorities would be remiss if they didn’t mandate further measures to expand vaccination. And, frankly, they are not doing enough in this respect.

Spending more money on health services won’t do a thing in the short term. Buildings, equipment, trained nurses and doctors - it all takes time. So, the only 2 options in the short term are:

1. measures to expand vaccination
2. more shutdowns

Take your pick.

You keep insisting that more shutdowns are the only way versus vaccination. Yet this is not the way to go and like i said even the WHO have come out and said as much. England pretty much stated after their last one that it would never do it again. BC never really did have any forced lockdowns and lots of stores that closed up during first wave did so voluntarily under some pressure from social media. This talk of forced 100% vax status or closing everything up is not going to happen. In your ideal Canada ALL the people must be vaccinated to save the health service from overload or else we will all be locked down and lose our livelihoods and we only have ourselves to blame, its not the governments fault of course. Cases are dropping off and hospitalizations will also fall as we have seen in other areas without increasing our vaccination numbers further.
Of interest tonight on local news after a study of over 500 patients in hospitals in BC and i quote:
The review also found that Omicron is more likely to lead to hospitalizations for vaccinated individuals than Delta, with many breakthrough cases in the elderly. The data reveals that 60 per cent of the Omicron cases in hospital tested positive after being admitted for another health concern. They did of course acknowledge that the hospital stay is much shorter with Omicron.

Mordko Feb 2nd 2022 12:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

The review also found that Omicron is more likely to lead to hospitalizations for vaccinated individuals than Delta, with many breakthrough cases in the elderly. The data reveals that 60 per cent of the Omicron cases in hospital tested positive after being admitted for another health concern. They did of course acknowledge that the hospital stay is much shorter with Omicron.
Missing the point. Again. The above is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the probability of ending up in ICU is more than an order of mag less for triple vaccinated than unvaxxed.

Your view that everything will be fine without any measures is hopefully true but happens to be contrary to that of people who actually know something about the subject. Theresa Tam was on TV yesterday saying that more vaxxing is how we get back to normality. Comparison with other jurisdictions would be valid if we had the same number of ICUs, doctors and nurses. We have one of the lowest. Right now waiting times in hospitals are abdominal.

Your info on BC is false. Quote from the current rules: “Places that do not offer full meal service must close. This includes places like bars, nightclubs and lounges that do not serve meals.” Its not voluntary at all. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/c...o/restrictions

dbd33 Feb 2nd 2022 12:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13091884)
That’s because you don’t understand basic concepts, such as “probability”. School system’s fault. Neither does Trudeau but his handlers told him what to say.

Its not really complicated though:

1. Lockdowns are bad. Kids don’t get to study, businesses go bust, etc.
2. Lockdowns happen when ICUs are at risk of being overwhelmed.
3. Probability of ending in ICU is much, much, much less if your vaccination status is up to date.
4. Keeping vaccination status up to date is good for kids, businesses, budget, anyone who is tired of lockdowns.
5. If you love lockdowns, hate kids, high unemployment and want to pay lots of taxes in the future than vaxxing is bad for you.


He's right, you know. Mordko in compellingly accurate argument shocker!


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