How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Jun 15th 2003, 6:32 am
#166
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Go Fig wrote:
>
> In article ,
> "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:
>
> > As with many factors in our "great democracy", America is an ideal place
> > to live IF (a) you have a secure source of income, sick or well, and (b)
> > you have adequate health insurance which does not depend upon your
> > remaining employed. Unfortunately, most of us have never noticed that,
> > from being the envy of the rest of the world (after WW2) we have become
> > the "poor relation" in terms of most of the things that really matter.
> > Maybe the average family has more "modern conveniences" (aka useless
> > gadgets), but in most ways, our "quality of life" is not nearly that of
> > our European counterparts.
>
> I don't think you have the experience to make such a broad statement.
Think again!
>
> jay
> Sat, Jun 14, 2003
> mailto:[email protected]
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > PB
>
> --
>
> Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
> Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
>
> In article ,
> "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:
>
> > As with many factors in our "great democracy", America is an ideal place
> > to live IF (a) you have a secure source of income, sick or well, and (b)
> > you have adequate health insurance which does not depend upon your
> > remaining employed. Unfortunately, most of us have never noticed that,
> > from being the envy of the rest of the world (after WW2) we have become
> > the "poor relation" in terms of most of the things that really matter.
> > Maybe the average family has more "modern conveniences" (aka useless
> > gadgets), but in most ways, our "quality of life" is not nearly that of
> > our European counterparts.
>
> I don't think you have the experience to make such a broad statement.
Think again!
>
> jay
> Sat, Jun 14, 2003
> mailto:[email protected]
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > PB
>
> --
>
> Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
> Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
Jun 15th 2003, 6:35 am
#167
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:
>
> > Probably better informed, if they belong to a union,
> > as most restaurant employees (at least in large cities)
> > are required to do.
>
> Required? What happened to right-to-work laws?
>
> So all McDonald's employees are unionized?
You're probably right - times have changed since I did the bookkeeping
for a couple of upper echelon restaurants here. I guess the "closed
shop" has gone the way of so much legislation intended to protect
workers (which later, having been too much abused, was discarded).
>
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:
>
> > Probably better informed, if they belong to a union,
> > as most restaurant employees (at least in large cities)
> > are required to do.
>
> Required? What happened to right-to-work laws?
>
> So all McDonald's employees are unionized?
You're probably right - times have changed since I did the bookkeeping
for a couple of upper echelon restaurants here. I guess the "closed
shop" has gone the way of so much legislation intended to protect
workers (which later, having been too much abused, was discarded).
Jun 15th 2003, 6:37 am
#168
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:
>
> > In the private sector, if you REALLY object to being
> > sent wherever, you can find another job with another
> > company (without uprooting your family to another city).
> > If you are a school teacher, you work for the school
> > system ...
>
> Only if you want to. There are private schools, too, even in France.
Perhaps those in France pay better than those in the U.S. - regardless
of the tuition fees, the teachers are generally paid even less than
those in public schools.
>
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
>
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:
>
> > In the private sector, if you REALLY object to being
> > sent wherever, you can find another job with another
> > company (without uprooting your family to another city).
> > If you are a school teacher, you work for the school
> > system ...
>
> Only if you want to. There are private schools, too, even in France.
Perhaps those in France pay better than those in the U.S. - regardless
of the tuition fees, the teachers are generally paid even less than
those in public schools.
>
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Jun 15th 2003, 6:39 am
#169
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Marie Lewis wrote:
>
> In article , Mxsmanic
> writes
> >Perhaps you've forgotten that justice in the U.S. costs a minimum of
> >$100 per hour.
> Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
Yes, but that does not include the "working poor", whose income -
although not really enough to support a family - is above the official
"poverty level".
>
> In article , Mxsmanic
> writes
> >Perhaps you've forgotten that justice in the U.S. costs a minimum of
> >$100 per hour.
> Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
Yes, but that does not include the "working poor", whose income -
although not really enough to support a family - is above the official
"poverty level".
Jun 15th 2003, 6:52 am
#170
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Go Fig wrote:
>
> In article ,
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> > Go Fig writes:
> >
> > > I don't think you have the experience to make such
> > > a broad statement.
> >
> > What does this ad hominem argument contribute to the discussion?
>
> Why the heck did you not include the OP text ;
>
> > > Maybe the average family has more "modern conveniences" (aka useless
> > > gadgets), but in most ways, our "quality of life" is not nearly that of
> > > our European counterparts.
>
> The OP experience is not an irrelevant fact to this text you
> deliberately excluded.
>
> Is it your position after a week in Paris as a tourist and another week
> in Austria one can assess "quality of life" experience for 380 million
> Europeans ?
Of course not, but aside from the fact that I've spent considerably more
time than that (and in a few more locations) and actually converse with
the "natives", I have correspondence with people in a number of
countries (thanks to e-mail and the internet). You are (judging from
past posts) one of the fortunate few who are successfully self-employed,
so I think your perspective is somewhat askew. Compare the AVERAGE
American with the AVERAGE European (from Western Europe, of course - I
don't pretend any familiarity with Russia or the Slavic countries), and
I suspect you'll find my assessment is not far wrong. I know, from
published articles, that both Sweden and Japan have much higher
standards of living than we, whatever may have been true fifty years
ago.
>
> In article ,
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> > Go Fig writes:
> >
> > > I don't think you have the experience to make such
> > > a broad statement.
> >
> > What does this ad hominem argument contribute to the discussion?
>
> Why the heck did you not include the OP text ;
>
> > > Maybe the average family has more "modern conveniences" (aka useless
> > > gadgets), but in most ways, our "quality of life" is not nearly that of
> > > our European counterparts.
>
> The OP experience is not an irrelevant fact to this text you
> deliberately excluded.
>
> Is it your position after a week in Paris as a tourist and another week
> in Austria one can assess "quality of life" experience for 380 million
> Europeans ?
Of course not, but aside from the fact that I've spent considerably more
time than that (and in a few more locations) and actually converse with
the "natives", I have correspondence with people in a number of
countries (thanks to e-mail and the internet). You are (judging from
past posts) one of the fortunate few who are successfully self-employed,
so I think your perspective is somewhat askew. Compare the AVERAGE
American with the AVERAGE European (from Western Europe, of course - I
don't pretend any familiarity with Russia or the Slavic countries), and
I suspect you'll find my assessment is not far wrong. I know, from
published articles, that both Sweden and Japan have much higher
standards of living than we, whatever may have been true fifty years
ago.
Jun 15th 2003, 7:02 am
#171
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Jim Ley wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:57:13 +0100, Marie Lewis
> wrote:
>
> >In article , Jim Ley
> > writes
> >>Of course I could, that's my point, the teachers you described in
> >>france are in no different a position than me, they can change
> >>profession to work in another location.
> > yes, but they cannot just find another teaching position in another
> >part of France. Shelf stackers can.
>
> No, but they can find shelf stacking or other jobs... just like other
> people who want to choose where they live, rather than live where they
> have to work. I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
> a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
> employment suddenly changed?
Do you have children? Don't you care about the quality of the education
they receive? I have a number of friends who were very effective
teachers (when allowed to teach) who got so fed up with the "system"
that they sought other lines of work. Teachers who really CARE can only
take so much bureaucracy before they conclude that, if they are not
allowed to be the kind of teacher they were trained to be, perhaps a
nine-to-five job might be preferable.
>
> Jim.
>
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:57:13 +0100, Marie Lewis
> wrote:
>
> >In article , Jim Ley
> > writes
> >>Of course I could, that's my point, the teachers you described in
> >>france are in no different a position than me, they can change
> >>profession to work in another location.
> > yes, but they cannot just find another teaching position in another
> >part of France. Shelf stackers can.
>
> No, but they can find shelf stacking or other jobs... just like other
> people who want to choose where they live, rather than live where they
> have to work. I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
> a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
> employment suddenly changed?
Do you have children? Don't you care about the quality of the education
they receive? I have a number of friends who were very effective
teachers (when allowed to teach) who got so fed up with the "system"
that they sought other lines of work. Teachers who really CARE can only
take so much bureaucracy before they conclude that, if they are not
allowed to be the kind of teacher they were trained to be, perhaps a
nine-to-five job might be preferable.
>
> Jim.
Jun 15th 2003, 7:06 am
#172
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Gordon Forbess wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:11:38 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> wrote:
>
> >Oh, they take the required time to recover - they just do it without
> >pay! (Once they've used up their vacation allowance, that is - some
> >vacation!)
>
> I am surprised that someone who claims to work in accounting in
> California is unaware of SDI (State Disability Insurance) as it is a
> mandatory payroll deduction. You may learn something at:
> http://www.edd.ca.gov/
I wasn't speaking of California, which SFAIK is among the few
exceptions. Also, have you tried to live on what they allow as
"disability income"? Unless you have an employer who is willing to
cough up the difference between SDI benefits and your normal salary?
Quite apart from the fact that there may be expenses associated with
recuperation that your medical insurance will not cover?
>
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:11:38 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> wrote:
>
> >Oh, they take the required time to recover - they just do it without
> >pay! (Once they've used up their vacation allowance, that is - some
> >vacation!)
>
> I am surprised that someone who claims to work in accounting in
> California is unaware of SDI (State Disability Insurance) as it is a
> mandatory payroll deduction. You may learn something at:
> http://www.edd.ca.gov/
I wasn't speaking of California, which SFAIK is among the few
exceptions. Also, have you tried to live on what they allow as
"disability income"? Unless you have an employer who is willing to
cough up the difference between SDI benefits and your normal salary?
Quite apart from the fact that there may be expenses associated with
recuperation that your medical insurance will not cover?
Jun 15th 2003, 7:24 am
#173
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article ,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:
> Marie Lewis wrote:
> >
> > In article , Mxsmanic
> > writes
> > >Perhaps you've forgotten that justice in the U.S. costs a minimum of
> > >$100 per hour.
> > Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
>
> Yes, but that does not include the "working poor", whose income -
> although not really enough to support a family - is above the official
> "poverty level".
Are you suggesting that a litigant in an ADA case is paying their lawyer
by an hourly fee ?
jay
Sun, Jun 15, 2003
mailto:[email protected]
`
--
Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:
> Marie Lewis wrote:
> >
> > In article , Mxsmanic
> > writes
> > >Perhaps you've forgotten that justice in the U.S. costs a minimum of
> > >$100 per hour.
> > Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
>
> Yes, but that does not include the "working poor", whose income -
> although not really enough to support a family - is above the official
> "poverty level".
Are you suggesting that a litigant in an ADA case is paying their lawyer
by an hourly fee ?
jay
Sun, Jun 15, 2003
mailto:[email protected]
`
--
Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
Jun 15th 2003, 7:58 am
#174
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:02:04 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
>> No, but they can find shelf stacking or other jobs... just like other
>> people who want to choose where they live, rather than live where they
>> have to work. I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
>> a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
>> employment suddenly changed?
>Do you have children? Don't you care about the quality of the education
>they receive?
Of course I do, which is why the ability to force good teachers to not
work in the nice areas is quite attractive, if the best teachers get
to take the jobs in the best schools, the poor schools won't improve.
If teaching unions are going to insist on collective bargaining with
every teacher paid broadly the same, then the above method has
attractions to me as a consumer of teachers (given that I can't afford
to live in those nice areas) as money can't be used as incentive to
those good teachers.
> Teachers who really CARE can only
>take so much bureaucracy before they conclude that, if they are not
>allowed to be the kind of teacher they were trained to be, perhaps a
>nine-to-five job might be preferable.
Certainly, why does that mean I should have sympathy for those
teachers who entered a profession with working conditions which said
they worked pretty much where they were told, and then complain.
Jim.
wrote:
>> No, but they can find shelf stacking or other jobs... just like other
>> people who want to choose where they live, rather than live where they
>> have to work. I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
>> a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
>> employment suddenly changed?
>Do you have children? Don't you care about the quality of the education
>they receive?
Of course I do, which is why the ability to force good teachers to not
work in the nice areas is quite attractive, if the best teachers get
to take the jobs in the best schools, the poor schools won't improve.
If teaching unions are going to insist on collective bargaining with
every teacher paid broadly the same, then the above method has
attractions to me as a consumer of teachers (given that I can't afford
to live in those nice areas) as money can't be used as incentive to
those good teachers.
> Teachers who really CARE can only
>take so much bureaucracy before they conclude that, if they are not
>allowed to be the kind of teacher they were trained to be, perhaps a
>nine-to-five job might be preferable.
Certainly, why does that mean I should have sympathy for those
teachers who entered a profession with working conditions which said
they worked pretty much where they were told, and then complain.
Jim.
Jun 15th 2003, 9:23 am
#175
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article , Jim Ley
writes
>I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
>a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
>employment suddenly changed?
I was not asking anyone to be sorry for them: I merely think that it an
unreasonable state of affairs. You evidently do not. That is your
choice.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>I'm sorry I don't have any sympathy for people entering
>a profession with such limitations, or has the conditions of
>employment suddenly changed?
I was not asking anyone to be sorry for them: I merely think that it an
unreasonable state of affairs. You evidently do not. That is your
choice.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 15th 2003, 9:25 am
#176
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article , Jim Ley
writes
>Of course I do, which is why the ability to force good teachers to not
>work in the nice areas is quite attractive, if the best teachers get
>to take the jobs in the best schools, the poor schools won't improve.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "nice" areas. Nor has it anything
to do with good or poor schools. It is merely an administrative thing.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>Of course I do, which is why the ability to force good teachers to not
>work in the nice areas is quite attractive, if the best teachers get
>to take the jobs in the best schools, the poor schools won't improve.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "nice" areas. Nor has it anything
to do with good or poor schools. It is merely an administrative thing.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 15th 2003, 9:26 am
#177
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article , J-Ph
writes
>"Marie Lewis" a écrit dans le message news:
>[email protected]...
>> yes, but they cannot just find another teaching position in another
>> part of France.
>They can ask for a transfer, but it can take years before they get the
>transfer they want.
>JPh
This is true. I knew a young married couple who were posted hundreds of
miles apart. Jim somebody or other thinks this is OK. I do not.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>"Marie Lewis" a écrit dans le message news:
>[email protected]...
>> yes, but they cannot just find another teaching position in another
>> part of France.
>They can ask for a transfer, but it can take years before they get the
>transfer they want.
>JPh
This is true. I knew a young married couple who were posted hundreds of
miles apart. Jim somebody or other thinks this is OK. I do not.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 15th 2003, 9:26 am
#178
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article ,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
>Perhaps those in France pay better than those in the U.S. - regardless
>of the tuition fees, the teachers are generally paid even less than
>those in public schools.
In England they are paid more, believe it or not.
--
Marie Lewis
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
>Perhaps those in France pay better than those in the U.S. - regardless
>of the tuition fees, the teachers are generally paid even less than
>those in public schools.
In England they are paid more, believe it or not.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 15th 2003, 9:28 am
#179
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
In article ,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
>I wasn't speaking of California, which SFAIK is among the few
>exceptions. Also, have you tried to live on what they allow as
>"disability income"? Unless you have an employer who is willing to
>cough up the difference between SDI benefits and your normal salary?
>Quite apart from the fact that there may be expenses associated with
>recuperation that your medical insurance will not cover?
In all my lengthy absences, because of 8 major operations, I was paid my
full salary for periods up to a year.
--
Marie Lewis
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" writes
>I wasn't speaking of California, which SFAIK is among the few
>exceptions. Also, have you tried to live on what they allow as
>"disability income"? Unless you have an employer who is willing to
>cough up the difference between SDI benefits and your normal salary?
>Quite apart from the fact that there may be expenses associated with
>recuperation that your medical insurance will not cover?
In all my lengthy absences, because of 8 major operations, I was paid my
full salary for periods up to a year.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 15th 2003, 9:31 am
#180
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: How can there be so much traffic in this group?
Marie Lewis writes:
> Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
There's a big difference between being poor and not being able to afford
$100 per hour.
The situation is even worse for medical care.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> Don't you have legal aid for the poor?
There's a big difference between being poor and not being able to afford
$100 per hour.
The situation is even worse for medical care.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
