PM Boris

Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:19 pm
  #121  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Tumbling_Dice View Post
What should, in my humble estimation, have happened (given it was an advisory vote) is that the government should have used the result to start a national conversation on what the hell it meant. I am no longer sure it was as clear cut as it seemed, but there is no doubt that the ensuing madness and bitter exchanges have caused people to dig in. As an aside, this would likely have also started a much needed conversation on how the UK sees itself, what it wants to be, desperately needed political reform etc. All this should have happened, and a fleshed out vision for the future developed, before triggering A50 (if that would have even been needed). I mean, who goes into negotiations without an agreed negotiating position?
Exactly, right back at you. My heart absolutely sank when that vacuous robot stood on the steps of Number 10 and said "Brexit means Brexit". Her incompetence for the role is now breathtaking. So much could have been achiveved if a national conversation were started. Control freak May did her utmost to force an ill fitting solution on Parliament and the country, and if were not for Gina Miller, the debacle would all have occurred behind closed doors. There has been digging in on both sides. Remainers refusing to compromise an inch on the existing well-crafted position, and Leavers now espousing a No Deal calamity as exactly what they had intended. What I hope for now is an election (prior to the Brexit deadline - which in reality could be postponed further were there will to do so) and a final chance for the country to have the informed debate that is now possible.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:28 pm
  #122  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Parliament is doing it's best to save ill informed voters from themselves. ​​​
Simply an example of how arrogant these people are.
As an MP I find that you don't agree with my position, but I'm in charge so I'm right and it's my duty to convince you otherwise and if I can't do that then I'll ignore you completely.
And this from a group of people who've been shown, time and time again, to exploit their status to rip off the UK with their fraud and expense practices and from time to time, when prompted from overseas, to invade the odd middle eastern country.


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Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:40 pm
  #123  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Exactly, right back at you. My heart absolutely sank when that vacuous robot stood on the steps of Number 10 and said "Brexit means Brexit". Her incompetence for the role is now breathtaking. So much could have been achiveved if a national conversation were started. Control freak May did her utmost to force an ill fitting solution on Parliament and the country, and if were not for Gina Miller, the debacle would all have occurred behind closed doors. There has been digging in on both sides. Remainers refusing to compromise an inch on the existing well-crafted position, and Leavers now espousing a No Deal calamity as exactly what they had intended. What I hope for now is an election (prior to the Brexit deadline - which in reality could be postponed further were there will to do so) and a final chance for the country to have the informed debate that is now possible.
Are you able to explain what is wrong with the agreement negotiated by May (from your perspective alone accepting that Brexit has to happen)?

Last edited by Almost Canadian; Aug 9th 2019 at 6:42 pm.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:42 pm
  #124  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Simply an example of how arrogant these people are.
As an MP I find that you don't agree with my position, but I'm in charge so I'm right and it's my duty to convince you otherwise and if I can't do that then I'll ignore you completely.
And this from a group of people who've been shown, time and time again, to exploit their status to rip off the UK with their fraud and expense practices and from time to time, when prompted from overseas, to invade the odd middle eastern country.
That's a cynical take on things.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:44 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Simply an example of how arrogant these people are.
As an MP I find that you don't agree with my position, but I'm in charge so I'm right and it's my duty to convince you otherwise and if I can't do that then I'll ignore you completely.
Or put another way with a simple reversal of the letters M and P
As PM I find that you don't agree with my position, but I'm in charge so I'm right and it's my duty to convince you otherwise and if I can't do that then I'll ignore you completely.

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Old Aug 9th 2019, 6:46 pm
  #126  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Are you able to explain what is wrong with the agreement negotiated by May (from your perspective alone accepting that Brexit has to happen)?
For the prize of a weaker economy and reduced global influence, no freedom of movement. It's a well meaning compromise to satisfy the ill-informed and the anti-Europeans. Nevertheless, if the country were asked again, and despite the three years of shambles wanted such a future, I would reluctantly accept it as a democratic choice.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 7:15 pm
  #127  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Or put another way with a simple reversal of the letters M and P
Absolutely, you passed a test, I failed one.

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Old Aug 9th 2019, 7:21 pm
  #128  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
For the prize of a weaker economy and reduced global influence, no freedom of movement. It's a well meaning compromise to satisfy the ill-informed and the anti-Europeans. Nevertheless, if the country were asked again, and despite the three years of shambles wanted such a future, I would reluctantly accept it as a democratic choice.
So you wish to remain in the EU, that is obvious but, above, amongst the name calling, you implied that May's deal was not good at all. What you appear to have wanted her to do was to ignore the result of the referendum.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 7:59 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Maybe, but England isn't making noises about breaking up the union and I stand by my position that most in England really won't care.

Having patrolled NI prior to the Good Friday Agreement I know that, in those times, virtually everyone felt one way or the other, as result of events that related to events that occurred prior to Brexit. I have no idea if that has changed, but I doubt it.

The recent independence referendum in Scotland showed what the position was then and, while that may have changed since, polls suggest otherwise. My experience of having to deal with lots of Scots resulted from my time in the Army and, when I first met them, I was taken aback by how their views of the English had been affected by what they had learned in school. My recollection of school history was that there was no mention of anything related to the battles between the two countries. I have never experienced any animosity towards Scots from the English, but I have experienced lots that went the other way. So I accept that Scots may feel very differently towards the English than the English about the Scots.

I would argue that most in Wales really don't care but I accept that residents of rural north Wales hate the English with a passion. Whether that is because of events from centuries ago, or more recent events, is debatable but, again, politicians aside, I have no experience of the Welsh wanting to break away from the UK and go it alone.

One never hears of the Scots having an issue with the Welsh, or those in NI, or the Welsh having an issue with those in NI or Scotland. I accept that those in NI that wish to have a united Ireland always refer to "Brits" rather than the "English." As a result of this, I believe that Scotland has an issue with "England" rather than with NI or Wales, but I accept that I may be wrong.

I believe that most English identify as being "British", most Scots identify as being "Scottish", most in Wales are somewhat ambivalent between being "Welsh" and being "British" and those in NI will identify as either "Irish" or "British" along sectarian grounds.
AC, you're a good man, but I'm I afraid that goes down as an astonishingly patronising post. I honestly expected much better of you. I'm virtually speechless,
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 8:25 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
AC, you're a good man, but I'm I afraid that goes down as an astonishingly patronising post. I honestly expected much better of you. I'm virtually speechless,
I sincerely apologise for any offence caused and that certainly wasn't my intention. I can only speak to my experience.

I shall stop digging now.
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Old Aug 9th 2019, 11:58 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Perhaps the legalistically minded among us could comment on the following.
When Article 50 was triggered it's provisions were governed by EU rules and as such is not subject to whim of the UK parliament.
Although the Commons have voted for the UK default position to be a no-deal come 31st October, presumably this is simply a mechanism that states that come the 31st there will be no effort made by the UK government to request an extension beyond 31st October.
So for the UK to avoid a no-deal one of the following must be in place.
a) A deal agreeable to the EU must have been ratified the commons and if it's different from May's deal agreed to by the 27 to be effective on or before the 31st October.
b) Revocation of Article 50 must have been voted on in the Commons and a request submitted to the EU and agreed to by the 27 on or before the 31st October.
c) An extension beyond the 31st October must have been voted on and passed by the commons and a request submitted to the EU and agreed to by the 27 to be effective on or before the 31st October.
It's clear that the Commons simply deciding to disallow a no-deal isn't good enough since EU law governs the implementation of Article 50 and any change must have the agreement of the 27.
So, given the current stand of Johnson's government, not only must his government fall and a new government be in place but it must have tabled and passed resolutions allowing requests to be made to the EU and if May's deal isn't part of the end agreement then all 27 must be assembled to agree either an extension or revocation of Article 50 or agreement for the revised deal.
Have I got this right?

Last edited by dave_j; Aug 10th 2019 at 12:00 am.
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Old Aug 10th 2019, 2:24 am
  #132  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
So you wish to remain in the EU, that is obvious but, above, amongst the name calling, you implied that May's deal was not good at all. What you appear to have wanted her to do was to ignore the result of the referendum.
Three years on there is still a massive dispute about what leaving the EU actually means. Even within the narrow confines of the Tory Party there is division of what Brexit actually means. How is a binary referendum result to be implemented in such circumstances? The referendum was rash political ploy by Cameron to shut down the anti-Europeans in his party, and it backfired. It was advisory, and if that fact was emphasised post hoc, some sort of compromise or (ideally) reversal could be agreed.
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Old Aug 10th 2019, 8:30 am
  #133  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
I sincerely apologise for any offence caused and that certainly wasn't my intention. I can only speak to my experience.

I shall stop digging now.
For context:

"Scotland has a new Prime Minister, elected by 92,000 Conservative Party members, of whom approximately only 6,000 are based in Scotland. He leads a party that hasn't won a major election in Scotland in 64 years, and is promising to deliver a Brexit that 62% of Scotland's voters rejected."
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Old Aug 12th 2019, 12:39 am
  #134  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Seems to me like Boris&co are betting on having countries/regions line up for trade agreements (including EU) once UK leaves with no deal. I'm not sure it will be that simple though - for one if UK crashes out with no deal, it will have defaulted on it's debts to the EU (the divorce bill is to cover these payments which UK previously agreed to make). Why would the EU want to do a deal after that? Any potential trade deal with the US is dead until at least 2021 because Congress won't pass it. I think the best path for the UK is to pass the withdrawal agreement and then start working on trade deals. I understand the backstop is not popular but it is necessary, imo.
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Old Aug 12th 2019, 12:51 am
  #135  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Crashing out does not necessarily mean the UK renegs on its obligations to the EU, but the fact that the hard Brexiteers are threatening to do just that is a good indication of what a diminished country Britain will become. Trade deals will indeed take time and will alter the fabric of the UK economy. Such a mess, and such a incompetent self serving bunch of politicians at the helm.
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