PM Boris

Old Aug 13th 2019, 2:13 pm
  #166  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Perhaps because if history or because some of the 27 are very small countries, Britain believes it calls all the shots. What it has not learned after all these years is that the EU as a group has far more negotiating power and has a huge motive for internal cohesion. It threatens to withhold international funding obligations (pathetic) despite the fact that such action would torpedo its trade interests and are unlikely to be deemed legal. Britain will need to get used to it's diminished influence once it Brexits. It will become a Canada or Australia on the world stage: relevant, smart, but not particularly powerful. The EU on the other hand...
I appreciate that the EU wishes to maintain cohesion amongst its members, at least at this time.

The comments I made above were in response to the suggestion that the EU wanted to deal with all matters at the same time (including discussing a trade agreement), something that the facts show is demonstrably untrue.

I accept that, from a trade perspective, the EU is way more powerful than the UK is, in some ways. One could argue that its size restricts it from being as flexible as the UK on its own.

But, one only has to look at how it has reacted to issues such as Iran breaching its nuclear obligations (which the EU seems to accept that the US is correct about) to see that, like other huge organisations such as the UN, it lacks the will to do anything other than "strongly condemn" Iran's actions. Of course, history shows that states such as Iran always give in to such condemnation.

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Old Aug 14th 2019, 12:05 am
  #167  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Well that'll be good news. No more Iraq invasions or Libyan adventures or a temptation for UK politicians to pledge UK limited resources for questionable affairs. Remember Hague jumping up and down encouraging recognition of the Syrian thuggish opposition still in it's infancy, well that turned out well.
Ahh... I hear you say, the UK will have diminished influence and I say that will be a good thing.
Let the EU form their federal forces and park them where the UK used to park theirs, no doubt they'll cause as much trouble as the UK did.
Mao had it right when he described the UK as a paper tiger, the trouble is that nobody in the UK listened to him.
You're joking right? We'll be America's chief lapdog post Brexit. Already happening the Gulf.
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Old Aug 14th 2019, 12:09 am
  #168  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
I appreciate that the EU wishes to maintain cohesion amongst its members, at least at this time.

The comments I made above were in response to the suggestion that the EU wanted to deal with all matters at the same time (including discussing a trade agreement), something that the facts show is demonstrably untrue.

I accept that, from a trade perspective, the EU is way more powerful than the UK is, in some ways. One could argue that its size restricts it from being as flexible as the UK on its own.

But, one only has to look at how it has reacted to issues such as Iran breaching its nuclear obligations (which the EU seems to accept that the US is correct about) to see that, like other huge organisations such as the UN, it lacks the will to do anything other than "strongly condemn" Iran's actions. Of course, history shows that states such as Iran always give in to such condemnation.
Are you glued to Fox News? Absolute nonsense on Iran. Bolton is forcing Iran into a corner, something that would be far less likely to happen were Britain not nervous about Brexit and fully committed to the EU.

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Old Aug 14th 2019, 1:42 am
  #169  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
You're joking right? We'll be America's chief lapdog post Brexit. Already happening the Gulf.
That remains to be seen, but I remember that the UK said No to the US in a meaningful expression of independence when Harold Wilson refused to send troops to Vietnam.. and the UK wasn't then part of the EU. I suspect that Wilson still remembered how badly the US had treated the UK following WW2 and recognised the US for what it was.
We'll have to see whether backbone is still present in UK political circles these days, they could certainly do with a few lessons on history.



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Old Aug 14th 2019, 2:07 am
  #170  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
We'll have to see whether backbone is still present in UK political circles these days, they could certainly do with a few lessons on history.
Boris, backbone? Not in this context, he's prone before any of Trump's courtiers.
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Old Aug 14th 2019, 4:09 pm
  #171  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Are you glued to Fox News? Absolute nonsense on Iran. Bolton is forcing Iran into a corner, something that would be far less likely to happen were Britain not nervous about Brexit and fully committed to the EU.
Are you suggesting that it is nonsense that Iran has breached its obligations or that the EU has admitted that Iran has?
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Old Aug 14th 2019, 8:42 pm
  #172  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The border issue with Ireland is far more contentious because of the Troubles. The sticking point is that under the backstop, if UK and EU cannot resolve the border issue, then NI is locked in to the Single Market, and the UK is locked in to the Customs Union indefinitely. Boris claims there are myriad technical solutions to preclude any need for a border in which case you would think he would be perfectly ready to accept the backstop. Unless of course he is bluffing. In my view, if Britain insists on Brexit it should agreed to a border in the Irish Sea (as the EU) proposes, and accept that in all likelihood reunification in Ireland.
I have to disagree with this. The vote was for the UK to leave the EU, not parts of it.

I am from NI, and a unionist. I have, however, long been of the opinion that if there was a case for a united Ireland, I would be prepared to listen. No party, Northern or Southern, that desires a united Ireland, has put forth any kind of reason or vision beyond "Brits Out". The SNP at least have a vision and reasons they believe are routed in economic and political reality. They produced that rather large tome, erroneous though some of its assumptions were. No Irish party has done anything like that work. So, long winded way of saying, especially in light of the Brexit shambles, a united Ireland is a very long way off, if ever. Varadkar realises that.

None of which is to say that Boris and co, and our rubbish parliamentarians, don't need to pull the finger out.
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Old Aug 14th 2019, 9:53 pm
  #173  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Tumbling_Dice View Post
a united Ireland is a very long way off, if ever.
As we have seen, the major problem with referenda is that outcomes are frequently uncertain, dependant as they are on a number of factors.
When I was a teenager I shared a few drinks with a pair of catholics from NI. I have to say two things stamped themselves on my memory. The first was the shocking emotional invective that they showed, the second was a description of the discrimination they said was their experience. Thus would have been before the troubles in about 1965 and they may or may not have been telling the truth.
We all know what's happened in the years since then and today we have a system at Stormont that betrays the inability of either side to accommodate the other, something that's now echoed in Brexit.
As with brexit, there comes a point when people say enough is enough and for whatever reason, logical or not, they seek tp follow a way that normalises everyday life and this could say 'yes' to a united Ireland.
But, as you all out there realise, I'm writing from the point of view as a vaguely interested outsider and as such simply can't understand, much as I couldn't understand my two catholics, views that arise from decades of personal experience that are alien to me.
But referenda.... they should carry a health notice... 'Referenda can seriously damage your perception of reality'



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Old Aug 28th 2019, 4:05 pm
  #174  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Like it not, Boris turns the screw....
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632
Move puts Remainers into check threatens checkmate.....
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 4:48 pm
  #175  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Like it not, Boris turns the screw....
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632
Move puts Remainers into check threatens checkmate.....
It's more likely to topple King Boris.
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 5:56 pm
  #176  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Novocastrian View Post
It's more likely to topple King Boris.
VoNC. Pre-Brexit election. Anyone's guess what happens after that. Cameron really has been the ruin of the country.
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 6:45 pm
  #177  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
... Cameron really has been the ruin of the country.
Speaking of which:

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Old Aug 28th 2019, 11:41 pm
  #178  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Ha! Can't argue with any of that.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 12:29 am
  #179  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Yup in a nut shell as they say
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 2:36 am
  #180  
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Default Re: PM Boris

Originally Posted by magnumpi View Post
Yup in a nut shell as they say
Absolutely, but at last the UK has a negotiating position with a clear exit.
Remember, the UK parliament voted to leave on 31st October (after the 6 month extension after the two week extension).
And all of this following three failed votes on an agreed bad deal and umpteen failed votes on alternative arrangements.
As I've often observed, people don't know what they want until they see what they don't want. MP's are no different and have shown themselves, so far, to be unable to make any decision that could conceivably rebound on them personally.
All being well, on 1st November either the EU will have conceded a technological solution to the Irish Border problem or everyone will be coming to terms with a no deal.
All not being well, then Remainers will have thrown a spanner at Boris and we'll be back where we were with MPs who never, in their wildest nightmares, thought that the PEOPLE would vote to leave the EU and still refuse to accept it.
One wonders whether Remainers, having learned their lesson from the referendum, dare open the Pandora's Box that'll be a General Election.
I strongly suspect that they'll bleet 'Undemocratic' but act ineptly so as to allow Boris to get his no deal in order to shout out loud 'I Told You So' if it all goes pear shaped and to make sure it does if at all possible, but then I've always been a cynic.
Either way, it'll all make very interesting TV.

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