ATM's.......
Aug 15th 2002, 5:03 pm
#1321
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
Now there you've dropped out of reality. Thai restaurants have consistently
excellent cooking. If I had to choose a place within a category at random the
category would be Thai.
Frank Matthews
devil wrote:
> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> But the point that you still miss, I guess, is that you *happen* to be living in
>>> a part of the US which has decent food around. Which can also be true in Europe,
>>> and with similar odds as in the US.
>> This is exactly what I disagree with. Most metro areas in the US have decent
>> food, where decent includes both quality and *variety*. While most of Europe is
>> Ok wrt quality, variety is usually abysmal. Local stuff is good, the rest is
>> close to inedible.
>>> Once again, why limiting the argument to "ethnic" food? Which ultimately will be
>>> "ersatz" anywhere except in the original countries?
>>> You seem to ascribe no value to, for instance, Italian stuff? Or to your regular
>>> nondescript non-ethnic restaurant (typically the result of a mix of French and
>>> Italian influences anyway)?
>> Because they get real boring real quick. Ethnic food is not more valuable than
>> Italian stuff *per se*. But it's nice to have variety: Thai yesterday, Italian
>> today, Fredonian tomorrow. A place where one can get a variety of different
>> foods is clearly superior to a place where it's ``a mix of French and Italian
>> influences'' day after day, even assuming that this mix is good (which it often
>> isn't).
> I rest my case.
> It's clear that you have no idea what top quality cooking is about.
> (And yes, there is top quality stuff. But it is not going to be Thai or Chinese.
> What you are talking about is your regular going on for food thing.)
excellent cooking. If I had to choose a place within a category at random the
category would be Thai.
Frank Matthews
devil wrote:
> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> But the point that you still miss, I guess, is that you *happen* to be living in
>>> a part of the US which has decent food around. Which can also be true in Europe,
>>> and with similar odds as in the US.
>> This is exactly what I disagree with. Most metro areas in the US have decent
>> food, where decent includes both quality and *variety*. While most of Europe is
>> Ok wrt quality, variety is usually abysmal. Local stuff is good, the rest is
>> close to inedible.
>>> Once again, why limiting the argument to "ethnic" food? Which ultimately will be
>>> "ersatz" anywhere except in the original countries?
>>> You seem to ascribe no value to, for instance, Italian stuff? Or to your regular
>>> nondescript non-ethnic restaurant (typically the result of a mix of French and
>>> Italian influences anyway)?
>> Because they get real boring real quick. Ethnic food is not more valuable than
>> Italian stuff *per se*. But it's nice to have variety: Thai yesterday, Italian
>> today, Fredonian tomorrow. A place where one can get a variety of different
>> foods is clearly superior to a place where it's ``a mix of French and Italian
>> influences'' day after day, even assuming that this mix is good (which it often
>> isn't).
> I rest my case.
> It's clear that you have no idea what top quality cooking is about.
> (And yes, there is top quality stuff. But it is not going to be Thai or Chinese.
> What you are talking about is your regular going on for food thing.)
Aug 15th 2002, 5:09 pm
#1322
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Presidential qualifications? OT
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>.. .
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Frank Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Gee what happens if you have two US citizen parents but are not yourself
> >> eligible for citizenship because they haven't lived for long enough in the US
> >> and you weren't born here. Could you run as a non-citizen?
> >
> > What are you talking about? If, a baby is born to two US citizens the baby him
> > or herself is a US citizen. E.G. George Romney's parents were US citizens
> > residing in Mexico when he was born, ergo he was a US citizen at the time of his
> > birth. How the parents got US citizenship is irrelevant.
> Not necessarily.
> If I was a US citizen living outside the US, and I'd never been to the US, and I
> had a child with another person in the same situation, I don't think the child
> would be eligible for citizenship.
Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born Abroad
Birth Abroad to Two U.S. Citizen Parents in Wedlock: A child born abroad to two U.S.
citizen parents acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the
Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). One of the parents MUST have resided in the
U.S. prior to the child's birth. No specific period of time for such prior residence
is required.
news:<[email protected]>.. .
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Frank Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Gee what happens if you have two US citizen parents but are not yourself
> >> eligible for citizenship because they haven't lived for long enough in the US
> >> and you weren't born here. Could you run as a non-citizen?
> >
> > What are you talking about? If, a baby is born to two US citizens the baby him
> > or herself is a US citizen. E.G. George Romney's parents were US citizens
> > residing in Mexico when he was born, ergo he was a US citizen at the time of his
> > birth. How the parents got US citizenship is irrelevant.
> Not necessarily.
> If I was a US citizen living outside the US, and I'd never been to the US, and I
> had a child with another person in the same situation, I don't think the child
> would be eligible for citizenship.
Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born Abroad
Birth Abroad to Two U.S. Citizen Parents in Wedlock: A child born abroad to two U.S.
citizen parents acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the
Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). One of the parents MUST have resided in the
U.S. prior to the child's birth. No specific period of time for such prior residence
is required.
Aug 15th 2002, 5:15 pm
#1323
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Presidential qualifications? OT
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>.. .
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Frank Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Gee what happens if you have two US citizen parents but are not yourself
> >> eligible for citizenship because they haven't lived for long enough in the US
> >> and you weren't born here. Could you run as a non-citizen?
> >
> > What are you talking about? If, a baby is born to two US citizens the baby him
> > or herself is a US citizen. E.G. George Romney's parents were US citizens
> > residing in Mexico when he was born, ergo he was a US citizen at the time of his
> > birth. How the parents got US citizenship is irrelevant.
> Not necessarily.
> If I was a US citizen living outside the US, and I'd never been to the US, and I
> had a child with another person in the same situation, I don't think the child
> would be eligible for citizenship.
There are so many ambiguities in the law (not least of which is the issue of
statutory versus constitutional) that it would take a gaggle of lawyers (gaggle is
the proper term, isn't it, or is it herd?) to come up with a black and white answer.
For anyone so inclined to read a lot of lawyerspeak, here's the link:
http://foia.state.gov/mast-
erdocs/07fam/07m1130.pdf
amp
news:<[email protected]>.. .
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Frank Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Gee what happens if you have two US citizen parents but are not yourself
> >> eligible for citizenship because they haven't lived for long enough in the US
> >> and you weren't born here. Could you run as a non-citizen?
> >
> > What are you talking about? If, a baby is born to two US citizens the baby him
> > or herself is a US citizen. E.G. George Romney's parents were US citizens
> > residing in Mexico when he was born, ergo he was a US citizen at the time of his
> > birth. How the parents got US citizenship is irrelevant.
> Not necessarily.
> If I was a US citizen living outside the US, and I'd never been to the US, and I
> had a child with another person in the same situation, I don't think the child
> would be eligible for citizenship.
There are so many ambiguities in the law (not least of which is the issue of
statutory versus constitutional) that it would take a gaggle of lawyers (gaggle is
the proper term, isn't it, or is it herd?) to come up with a black and white answer.
For anyone so inclined to read a lot of lawyerspeak, here's the link:
http://foia.state.gov/mast-
erdocs/07fam/07m1130.pdf
amp
Aug 15th 2002, 5:17 pm
#1324
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:58:38 GMT, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>>> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> "Ken Blake" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> German wienerschnitzel? (note the spelling, by the way.) Do you know what the
>>>>> "wiener" in "wienerschnitzel" means?
>>>> I do. Is there a prize?
>>> I'll give you a prize if you can tell me what the "erschnit" is for.
>> What's the prize (I don't come cheap)?
>Du kamst zu spaet an. DAL hat schon den Preis gewonnen.
Ach. Schade.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******
>Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>>> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> "Ken Blake" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> German wienerschnitzel? (note the spelling, by the way.) Do you know what the
>>>>> "wiener" in "wienerschnitzel" means?
>>>> I do. Is there a prize?
>>> I'll give you a prize if you can tell me what the "erschnit" is for.
>> What's the prize (I don't come cheap)?
>Du kamst zu spaet an. DAL hat schon den Preis gewonnen.
Ach. Schade.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******
Aug 15th 2002, 7:51 pm
#1325
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re:
Surreyman wrote:
>> Taft served as president *long* before Ohio became a state in 1953. But that
>> was an error - nobody realized at the time that Ohio had never been admitted to
>> the union.
> Er ... 1803?
Great year. Louisiana purchase and all that.
But Ohio was admitted to the union on August 7, 1953, and not before.
--
http://paulding.net Many useful utilities
"Do only what only you can do." Rest in peace, Professor Dijkstra
>> Taft served as president *long* before Ohio became a state in 1953. But that
>> was an error - nobody realized at the time that Ohio had never been admitted to
>> the union.
> Er ... 1803?
Great year. Louisiana purchase and all that.
But Ohio was admitted to the union on August 7, 1953, and not before.
--
http://paulding.net Many useful utilities
"Do only what only you can do." Rest in peace, Professor Dijkstra
Aug 15th 2002, 8:23 pm
#1326
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
> Weiner art, not von Wein.
I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before. It's NOT a cutlet in the
Viennese style, it is a Viennese cutlet. Not quite the same thing.
I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before. It's NOT a cutlet in the
Viennese style, it is a Viennese cutlet. Not quite the same thing.
Aug 15th 2002, 11:35 pm
#1327
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
Frank Matthews wrote:
> Now there you've dropped out of reality. Thai restaurants have consistently
> excellent cooking. If I had to choose a place within a category at random the
> category would be Thai.
There are nice Thai restaurants. But the point remains that you won't typically put
them in the same category as, to use an example in Europe, restaurants with a couple
of stars in the michelin guide.
> devil wrote:
>> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> But the point that you still miss, I guess, is that you *happen* to be living in
>>>> a part of the US which has decent food around. Which can also be true in
>>>> Europe, and with similar odds as in the US.
>>> This is exactly what I disagree with. Most metro areas in the US have decent
>>> food, where decent includes both quality and *variety*. While most of Europe is
>>> Ok wrt quality, variety is usually abysmal. Local stuff is good, the rest is
>>> close to inedible.
>>>> Once again, why limiting the argument to "ethnic" food? Which ultimately will
>>>> be "ersatz" anywhere except in the original countries?
>>>> You seem to ascribe no value to, for instance, Italian stuff? Or to your
>>>> regular nondescript non-ethnic restaurant (typically the result of a mix of
>>>> French and Italian influences anyway)?
>>> Because they get real boring real quick. Ethnic food is not more valuable than
>>> Italian stuff *per se*. But it's nice to have variety: Thai yesterday,
>>> Italian today, Fredonian tomorrow. A place where one can get a variety of
>>> different foods is clearly superior to a place where it's ``a mix of French and
>>> Italian influences'' day after day, even assuming that this mix is good (which
>>> it often isn't).
>> I rest my case.
>> It's clear that you have no idea what top quality cooking is about.
>> (And yes, there is top quality stuff. But it is not going to be Thai or Chinese.
>> What you are talking about is your regular going on for food thing.)
> Now there you've dropped out of reality. Thai restaurants have consistently
> excellent cooking. If I had to choose a place within a category at random the
> category would be Thai.
There are nice Thai restaurants. But the point remains that you won't typically put
them in the same category as, to use an example in Europe, restaurants with a couple
of stars in the michelin guide.
> devil wrote:
>> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> But the point that you still miss, I guess, is that you *happen* to be living in
>>>> a part of the US which has decent food around. Which can also be true in
>>>> Europe, and with similar odds as in the US.
>>> This is exactly what I disagree with. Most metro areas in the US have decent
>>> food, where decent includes both quality and *variety*. While most of Europe is
>>> Ok wrt quality, variety is usually abysmal. Local stuff is good, the rest is
>>> close to inedible.
>>>> Once again, why limiting the argument to "ethnic" food? Which ultimately will
>>>> be "ersatz" anywhere except in the original countries?
>>>> You seem to ascribe no value to, for instance, Italian stuff? Or to your
>>>> regular nondescript non-ethnic restaurant (typically the result of a mix of
>>>> French and Italian influences anyway)?
>>> Because they get real boring real quick. Ethnic food is not more valuable than
>>> Italian stuff *per se*. But it's nice to have variety: Thai yesterday,
>>> Italian today, Fredonian tomorrow. A place where one can get a variety of
>>> different foods is clearly superior to a place where it's ``a mix of French and
>>> Italian influences'' day after day, even assuming that this mix is good (which
>>> it often isn't).
>> I rest my case.
>> It's clear that you have no idea what top quality cooking is about.
>> (And yes, there is top quality stuff. But it is not going to be Thai or Chinese.
>> What you are talking about is your regular going on for food thing.)
Aug 16th 2002, 8:57 am
#1328
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
[email protected] (Mika) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (amp_spamfree) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > "Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected] ay.telekom.at>...
> > > > And you still can't get an authentic German weinerschnitzel.
> > > Since when was Wienerschnitzel german ?
> >
> > And moreover, Weiner schnitzel is not named for its origin but rather for it's
> > preparation style - but I have had very good Weinerschnitzel in both Vienna and
> > Salzburg, in case you were wondering.
> >
> > thanks for playing.
> If you know so much about it, how come you cannot spell it correctly? Hell, why not
> just call it cotoletta milanese?
> M
Well, Mika - if we want to play the grammar and spelling game - we can.
And cotoletta milanese isn't wienerschnitzel - it may be breaded veal, but it's fried
in butter as opposed to lard and isn't dredged in flour first. I'd say that makes
for a serious distinction.
Similar, sure - but then again, there's not much distance between the two countries.
amp
news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (amp_spamfree) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > "Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected] ay.telekom.at>...
> > > > And you still can't get an authentic German weinerschnitzel.
> > > Since when was Wienerschnitzel german ?
> >
> > And moreover, Weiner schnitzel is not named for its origin but rather for it's
> > preparation style - but I have had very good Weinerschnitzel in both Vienna and
> > Salzburg, in case you were wondering.
> >
> > thanks for playing.
> If you know so much about it, how come you cannot spell it correctly? Hell, why not
> just call it cotoletta milanese?
> M
Well, Mika - if we want to play the grammar and spelling game - we can.
And cotoletta milanese isn't wienerschnitzel - it may be breaded veal, but it's fried
in butter as opposed to lard and isn't dredged in flour first. I'd say that makes
for a serious distinction.
Similar, sure - but then again, there's not much distance between the two countries.
amp
Aug 16th 2002, 9:15 am
#1329
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Weiner art, not von Wein.
> I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before. It's NOT a cutlet in the
> Viennese style, it is a Viennese cutlet. Not quite the same thing.
I gave you some the links to bonafide German restaurants in German where it is
described EXACTLY like that. If you haven't heard of it before, well, consider it
new knowledge. Schnitzel, be it Wiener Art, Jager, Zigeuner, or whatever, is an
authentic German dish - and in my opinion is an excellent barometer of the quality of
a German restaurant. The descriptor refers to a style of preparation, not a
geographic origin.
Wienerschnitzel is a boneless cutlet (veal or pork) in a Viennese style.
Look, we can argue about this till the cows come home but after growing up in a
household that at one time included three generations of authentic German chefs
(German nationals who made their money from cooking German food in both Germany and
the US), I think I have enough experience to know the difference.
For your personal edification - Wiener Art - here's what it is - Requires a THIN cut
or one that is pounded thin. Then the cut is dredged in egg (optional), flour, and
bread crumbs. It is fried on high heat in lard. Wiener Art can be used with veal,
pork, chicken, and even fish (pounding is not recommended). I have seen it used with
beef - maybe that's where chicken fried steak came from?
A wienerschitzel is usually served with potato salad, Salatteller, a wedge of
lemon and "ein grosses Heffeweissen" - at least in authentic German restaurants
and in my kitchen.
All this is making me hungry. I'm done.
amp
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Weiner art, not von Wein.
> I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before. It's NOT a cutlet in the
> Viennese style, it is a Viennese cutlet. Not quite the same thing.
I gave you some the links to bonafide German restaurants in German where it is
described EXACTLY like that. If you haven't heard of it before, well, consider it
new knowledge. Schnitzel, be it Wiener Art, Jager, Zigeuner, or whatever, is an
authentic German dish - and in my opinion is an excellent barometer of the quality of
a German restaurant. The descriptor refers to a style of preparation, not a
geographic origin.
Wienerschnitzel is a boneless cutlet (veal or pork) in a Viennese style.
Look, we can argue about this till the cows come home but after growing up in a
household that at one time included three generations of authentic German chefs
(German nationals who made their money from cooking German food in both Germany and
the US), I think I have enough experience to know the difference.
For your personal edification - Wiener Art - here's what it is - Requires a THIN cut
or one that is pounded thin. Then the cut is dredged in egg (optional), flour, and
bread crumbs. It is fried on high heat in lard. Wiener Art can be used with veal,
pork, chicken, and even fish (pounding is not recommended). I have seen it used with
beef - maybe that's where chicken fried steak came from?
A wienerschitzel is usually served with potato salad, Salatteller, a wedge of
lemon and "ein grosses Heffeweissen" - at least in authentic German restaurants
and in my kitchen.
All this is making me hungry. I'm done.
amp
Aug 16th 2002, 9:22 am
#1330
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
> For your personal edification - Wiener Art - here's what it is - Requires a THIN
> cut or one that is pounded thin
So the Altwienerbrathendl is beaten thin? News to me. I never noticed the splintered
bones. I suppose that then isn't "Wiener Art"?
> cut or one that is pounded thin
So the Altwienerbrathendl is beaten thin? News to me. I never noticed the splintered
bones. I suppose that then isn't "Wiener Art"?
Aug 16th 2002, 9:44 am
#1331
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
>> I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before
>I gave you some the links to bonafide German restaurants in German where it is
>described EXACTLY like that
Perhaps I should have added "...in Austria, except when it's made of pork".
And thanks anyway, but I do know how to make a Wienerschnitzel.
As I see it I think the argument rests on the which came first principle.
1)In Vienna they were making this dish, then it became popular in Germany. Then it is
an authentic Viennese dish, and not a german one. (read: A Schnitzel cooked in the
way the Viennese actually do it);
2) In Vienna other dishes were cooked in flour, crumbs etc....but not a veal cutlet.
Then the Germans started cooking veal in bread and we have an authentic German
dish (read: a cutlet cooked in the way the Viennese cook lots of other foods but
not this one)
To be honest, I haven't really heard of a typical Viennese style of cooking. The
Schnitzel and Backhendl, are the only thinks I have come across cooked like that and
named Viennese. So, at least nowadays it's not too typical.
Which was it ? I obviously tip for the first, you for the second. And the twain
shall never meet....unless, of course, there's a third alternative..... I have heard
that it may actually have originated in France, but have no hard evidence of that.
The "well-known fact" that it originated in Milan and was brought to Austria by
Raditzsky after a visit by the Kaiser has been refuted and now believed to have been
a hoax. Tim.
>I gave you some the links to bonafide German restaurants in German where it is
>described EXACTLY like that
Perhaps I should have added "...in Austria, except when it's made of pork".
And thanks anyway, but I do know how to make a Wienerschnitzel.
As I see it I think the argument rests on the which came first principle.
1)In Vienna they were making this dish, then it became popular in Germany. Then it is
an authentic Viennese dish, and not a german one. (read: A Schnitzel cooked in the
way the Viennese actually do it);
2) In Vienna other dishes were cooked in flour, crumbs etc....but not a veal cutlet.
Then the Germans started cooking veal in bread and we have an authentic German
dish (read: a cutlet cooked in the way the Viennese cook lots of other foods but
not this one)
To be honest, I haven't really heard of a typical Viennese style of cooking. The
Schnitzel and Backhendl, are the only thinks I have come across cooked like that and
named Viennese. So, at least nowadays it's not too typical.
Which was it ? I obviously tip for the first, you for the second. And the twain
shall never meet....unless, of course, there's a third alternative..... I have heard
that it may actually have originated in France, but have no hard evidence of that.
The "well-known fact" that it originated in Milan and was brought to Austria by
Raditzsky after a visit by the Kaiser has been refuted and now believed to have been
a hoax. Tim.
Aug 16th 2002, 9:49 am
#1332
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I haven't had problems on either account. In fact, Planet Hollywood, TGIF, and
> >Hard Rock...all "typical" American restaurants are readily available, with almost
> >identical menus, in most major and many minor European cities. As for authentic
> >American food, what is more authentic than your major chains. If it wasn't
> >authentic American, why so many and so much?
> Because Europeans, as always, are suckers for all things American, or, rather,
> things that are sold to them as American?
Another backhanded slap at Europeans? I see a lot more Mercedes in the US than I do
Chryslers in Germany. How many of these edifices to American culture and food are
there in the US?
> But at some level you are right. What Planet Hollywood, TGIF and Hard Rock are
> to American food, Asian restaurants in Europe are to Asian food. Which is kinda
> what I've been saying all along...
Your insistence that Planet Hollywood is not typical American fare is an interesting
one. If not the large "American" chains and not McDonalds, what is American food?
Pablonos? Not according to my Mexican colleagues.
Asian food in Europe runs hot and cold - just like in the US. I've had wonderful
Chinese in Manhattan and lousy Chinese in Hong Kong. I've also had lousy French in
San Francisco and wonderful french in Tokyo.
> >> It's a little bit hard for me to say, since I don't know what's available in
> >> your local Chicago area Dominicks, but my local supermarket has tortillas,
> >> poblanos/pasillas, Mexican linguica and chorizo (different from Portuguese and
> >> Spanish versions, respectively), etc. Never saw anything like that in
> >> Sainsbury's.
> >
> >At Sainsbury's I can get, without a problem, everything but linguica - in part
> >because I'm not quite sure what that is and I've never looked.
> You can get poblanos and tortillas at Sainsbury's only in the same sense that you
> can get ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe. In which case I have to admit
> the question indeed becomes ``Why would you?''
Maybe I'm not the food snob you pretend to be? Or perhaps I can take fairly routine
and common ingredients and make them tast exotic...? Or maybe you're struggling to
back pedal from the "no you can't"?
> >What exactly is "good American food"? Try this place.
> >
> >14 Boulevard Montmartre Paris 75009, France
> That wouldn't be Hard Rock Cafe by any chance, would it? My range of experiences
> is so limited that you are the first person I encountered who seems to take Hard
> Rock Cafe seriously as a source of good food.
Who ever said it was good food? I simply pointed out that with hundreds of these
around, they characterize American food. Do you honestly believe that true American
cooking (not the regional ethnic stuff) is a cusine of merit or note - or even
"style"? A slab of meat on the grill, a bucket of fries or for the truly refined, a
baked potato, and a bowl of iceberg lettuce all washed down with a Bud Light.
> I mean, I know plenty of people who go there, but they are not... how shall I say
> it... very particular about their food.
I find that MOST Americans are not too particular about their food, so that becomes
part of the whole American Food thing. Big plate full of greasy bland tasting meat
and potatoes with a light beer.
> >> Your other examples are *really* strange. Wild guess out of the left field:
> >> you are some kind of corporate executive and eat out on an expense account.
> >
> >Yep, you bet. Which explains the limited range of experiences you've had, as, let
> >me guess, a graduate student?
> You guessed wrong, but that's excusable (what with me posting from an academic
> account and all). But let me ask you, a widely experienced traveler, how come
> the best example of Chinese food in Paris that you came up with is not even in
> Paris proper, and you don't seem to know the name of your chosen Latin American
> restaurant?
You wanted examples of ethnic restaurants in Paris - I gave them to you. When I'm in
Paris I tend to eat French.
> >> Because Le Foc Ly (I hope I am thinking of the right place, it's out in Les
> >> Sablons, right?) is so overpriced and mediocre that whenever I try to think of
> >> people eating there, I always have this image in my mind of rich widows from
> >> Neuilly who wouldn't know good Chinese food if it jumped up and bit them in
> >> the ass and traveling corporate types whose employers rent them apartments in
> >> the vicinity.
> >
> >And since you haven't eaten there.....and since when is your personal preference
> >an indicator of what authentic is?
> Le Foc Ly is, more or less, the Hard Rock Cafe of Chinese food, which might very
> well make it authentic in your eyes.
Considering it is in Paris, there's a rift already in the fabric of authentim.
> And you are right that there is no reason for you to take my personal preference
> is an indicator of anything. I don't really know how you folks choose
> restaurants, but I am told that Zagat is very popular among corporate types. Why
> don't you check what Zagat Paris has to say about Le Foc Ly?
I let my French colleagues select the restaurants. To be honest, I've never been
impressed by the oppulence but always impressed by the food. Zagat puts it in the
acceptable range - slightly less favorable than Berghofs in Chicago. So?
> >> Same for Suntory: expensive, extremely corporate, full of Japanese
> >> businessmen.
> >
> >A Japanese restaurant in Paris full of Japanese business men...intersting thought.
> >If it weren't "authentic" why are they there?
> Japanese businessmen, for all their virtues, are not exactly famous for their
> spirit of adventure and/or discernment as far as food is concerned. I'd much
> rather go to a place frequented by regular, working-class Japanese (if in Japan)
> or Americans (if in Europe), since at least Americans may know what good Japanese
> tastes like. And no, you don't have to shell out $70 to get good Japanese food.
Americans know what good sushi is? Maybe in San fran, but hardly in Ames Iowa. But
for truely authentic Japanese food, you need a bit more than $70 - been there, done
that - Tokyo comes to mind.
When in doubt as to the quality of a restaurant, the road warrior is ALWAYS the best
person to ask - and if money isn't a barrier, the road warrior suit is your best bet
- not the junior faculty on a backpack budget.
> >In my experience, your best dining experience is eating locally - so when in
> >France, eat French, when in Germany, eat German
> This works... if you are traveling through. If you happen to live there, or at
> least stay for long stretches at a time, it gets a bit monotonous, if you know
> what I mean. There is only so much French food one can eat without mayonnaise
> coming up your nose.
> And speaking of food in France... I don't know if you really care to eat well
> (probably not - Le Foc Ly, McDonalds, Hard Rock Cafe, brrr), but let me give you
> a bit of friendly advice from my limited range of experiences. You seem to be
> hanging out in all the wrong places. 8th, 9th, Neuilly... Even though the choices
> in Paris *are* severely limited, you can do better than that. Go south and east.
> You might even stretch your expense account a bit.
Thanks - like I said, I don't pick, my French colleagues do. And let me offer a bit
of advice - you're much too young to have such a bad attitude about Europeans. I've
had the pleasure of 25 years as an international road warrior and lived in a handful
of countries around the world off and on in my career - when it comes to food...I
really don't need your advice - though you have provided a bit of humour for which I
am greatful.
done? I am.
amp
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I haven't had problems on either account. In fact, Planet Hollywood, TGIF, and
> >Hard Rock...all "typical" American restaurants are readily available, with almost
> >identical menus, in most major and many minor European cities. As for authentic
> >American food, what is more authentic than your major chains. If it wasn't
> >authentic American, why so many and so much?
> Because Europeans, as always, are suckers for all things American, or, rather,
> things that are sold to them as American?
Another backhanded slap at Europeans? I see a lot more Mercedes in the US than I do
Chryslers in Germany. How many of these edifices to American culture and food are
there in the US?
> But at some level you are right. What Planet Hollywood, TGIF and Hard Rock are
> to American food, Asian restaurants in Europe are to Asian food. Which is kinda
> what I've been saying all along...
Your insistence that Planet Hollywood is not typical American fare is an interesting
one. If not the large "American" chains and not McDonalds, what is American food?
Pablonos? Not according to my Mexican colleagues.
Asian food in Europe runs hot and cold - just like in the US. I've had wonderful
Chinese in Manhattan and lousy Chinese in Hong Kong. I've also had lousy French in
San Francisco and wonderful french in Tokyo.
> >> It's a little bit hard for me to say, since I don't know what's available in
> >> your local Chicago area Dominicks, but my local supermarket has tortillas,
> >> poblanos/pasillas, Mexican linguica and chorizo (different from Portuguese and
> >> Spanish versions, respectively), etc. Never saw anything like that in
> >> Sainsbury's.
> >
> >At Sainsbury's I can get, without a problem, everything but linguica - in part
> >because I'm not quite sure what that is and I've never looked.
> You can get poblanos and tortillas at Sainsbury's only in the same sense that you
> can get ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe. In which case I have to admit
> the question indeed becomes ``Why would you?''
Maybe I'm not the food snob you pretend to be? Or perhaps I can take fairly routine
and common ingredients and make them tast exotic...? Or maybe you're struggling to
back pedal from the "no you can't"?
> >What exactly is "good American food"? Try this place.
> >
> >14 Boulevard Montmartre Paris 75009, France
> That wouldn't be Hard Rock Cafe by any chance, would it? My range of experiences
> is so limited that you are the first person I encountered who seems to take Hard
> Rock Cafe seriously as a source of good food.
Who ever said it was good food? I simply pointed out that with hundreds of these
around, they characterize American food. Do you honestly believe that true American
cooking (not the regional ethnic stuff) is a cusine of merit or note - or even
"style"? A slab of meat on the grill, a bucket of fries or for the truly refined, a
baked potato, and a bowl of iceberg lettuce all washed down with a Bud Light.
> I mean, I know plenty of people who go there, but they are not... how shall I say
> it... very particular about their food.
I find that MOST Americans are not too particular about their food, so that becomes
part of the whole American Food thing. Big plate full of greasy bland tasting meat
and potatoes with a light beer.
> >> Your other examples are *really* strange. Wild guess out of the left field:
> >> you are some kind of corporate executive and eat out on an expense account.
> >
> >Yep, you bet. Which explains the limited range of experiences you've had, as, let
> >me guess, a graduate student?
> You guessed wrong, but that's excusable (what with me posting from an academic
> account and all). But let me ask you, a widely experienced traveler, how come
> the best example of Chinese food in Paris that you came up with is not even in
> Paris proper, and you don't seem to know the name of your chosen Latin American
> restaurant?
You wanted examples of ethnic restaurants in Paris - I gave them to you. When I'm in
Paris I tend to eat French.
> >> Because Le Foc Ly (I hope I am thinking of the right place, it's out in Les
> >> Sablons, right?) is so overpriced and mediocre that whenever I try to think of
> >> people eating there, I always have this image in my mind of rich widows from
> >> Neuilly who wouldn't know good Chinese food if it jumped up and bit them in
> >> the ass and traveling corporate types whose employers rent them apartments in
> >> the vicinity.
> >
> >And since you haven't eaten there.....and since when is your personal preference
> >an indicator of what authentic is?
> Le Foc Ly is, more or less, the Hard Rock Cafe of Chinese food, which might very
> well make it authentic in your eyes.
Considering it is in Paris, there's a rift already in the fabric of authentim.
> And you are right that there is no reason for you to take my personal preference
> is an indicator of anything. I don't really know how you folks choose
> restaurants, but I am told that Zagat is very popular among corporate types. Why
> don't you check what Zagat Paris has to say about Le Foc Ly?
I let my French colleagues select the restaurants. To be honest, I've never been
impressed by the oppulence but always impressed by the food. Zagat puts it in the
acceptable range - slightly less favorable than Berghofs in Chicago. So?
> >> Same for Suntory: expensive, extremely corporate, full of Japanese
> >> businessmen.
> >
> >A Japanese restaurant in Paris full of Japanese business men...intersting thought.
> >If it weren't "authentic" why are they there?
> Japanese businessmen, for all their virtues, are not exactly famous for their
> spirit of adventure and/or discernment as far as food is concerned. I'd much
> rather go to a place frequented by regular, working-class Japanese (if in Japan)
> or Americans (if in Europe), since at least Americans may know what good Japanese
> tastes like. And no, you don't have to shell out $70 to get good Japanese food.
Americans know what good sushi is? Maybe in San fran, but hardly in Ames Iowa. But
for truely authentic Japanese food, you need a bit more than $70 - been there, done
that - Tokyo comes to mind.
When in doubt as to the quality of a restaurant, the road warrior is ALWAYS the best
person to ask - and if money isn't a barrier, the road warrior suit is your best bet
- not the junior faculty on a backpack budget.
> >In my experience, your best dining experience is eating locally - so when in
> >France, eat French, when in Germany, eat German
> This works... if you are traveling through. If you happen to live there, or at
> least stay for long stretches at a time, it gets a bit monotonous, if you know
> what I mean. There is only so much French food one can eat without mayonnaise
> coming up your nose.
> And speaking of food in France... I don't know if you really care to eat well
> (probably not - Le Foc Ly, McDonalds, Hard Rock Cafe, brrr), but let me give you
> a bit of friendly advice from my limited range of experiences. You seem to be
> hanging out in all the wrong places. 8th, 9th, Neuilly... Even though the choices
> in Paris *are* severely limited, you can do better than that. Go south and east.
> You might even stretch your expense account a bit.
Thanks - like I said, I don't pick, my French colleagues do. And let me offer a bit
of advice - you're much too young to have such a bad attitude about Europeans. I've
had the pleasure of 25 years as an international road warrior and lived in a handful
of countries around the world off and on in my career - when it comes to food...I
really don't need your advice - though you have provided a bit of humour for which I
am greatful.
done? I am.
amp
Aug 16th 2002, 3:07 pm
#1333
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re:Der Wienerschnitzel
I hadn't paid any attention to these folks. Then they are on the internet, then the
late night US TV, and now my local paper.
It appears that they have a new product. A large burger with a split polish sausage
on top. Guaranteed to really clog your arteries.
Frank Matthews
late night US TV, and now my local paper.
It appears that they have a new product. A large burger with a split polish sausage
on top. Guaranteed to really clog your arteries.
Frank Matthews
Aug 16th 2002, 3:33 pm
#1334
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Most fishing anywhere is large scale commercial fishing.
> >
> >Where do you come up with these tidbits of misinformation? UK fisheries industry
> >employees 22,000 in 581 concerns - that is an average of 78 employees per. Not
> >exactly Large Scale.
> 78 employees *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. You are talking
> trawlers, I am talking a guy with twenty lobster traps.
78 employees is far from large scale. 10 trawlers and a cannery is not large scale
commercial fishing. $5-10 million a year in turnover is NOT a big business - 1-2
billion, now your talking. Most fishing is small, family run - not large industrial
and corporate - with the exception of Japan.
> >> It's hard to find only because the fish/seafood species are different
> >> (probably my most favorite seafood is something called ``percepes'' which I
> >> only saw in Spain and Portugal, never in the US). Otherwise, there are plenty
> >> of little harbors on both coasts of the US where you can drive up to the pier
> >> and buy fish from a small boat, or have it cooked right there and then.
> >> Places like Princeton-by-the-Sea and Moss Landing near where I live, or
> >> similar places in New England. I've seen plenty. Much prettier than Europe,
> >> too.
> >
> >Defeats the whole argument that it's big and commercial - now it's small and
> >quaint?
> All I am saying that small and quaint *exists* in America, and it's not hard, if
> you live near the coast, to drive up to a harbor and get your fish fresh in the
> same manner you would in Spain and Portugal. Are you actually reading the thread?
First it's big and commercial and now it's small and quaint - are you just contrarian
or do you think no one will notice.
"...is better than in coastal Europe." "...Much prettier than Europe, too." "...most
of the west coast and New England are cold water." [in reference to cold water fish
being better]
So it really isn't "in the same manner", it's bigger, better, and American. What a
bunch of crap. What you are saying is that no matter what, America is better than
Europe for any kind of food - this time using seafood as an example.
> >> This is true, but most of the west coast and New England are cold water.
> >
> >As is the Baltic.
> Yes. So?
> >But then again, you don't get much mahi mahi in cold water, now do you.
> No. So?
> >Grouper doesn't do so well in cold water, nor does tuna. Red snapper
> >- now there's a taste favorite.
> All true. So?
So this massive dominance based on cold water geography is what, hot air?
> >If you want salmon, Scotland and Sweden beat anything Oregon has to offer.
> Most of salmon in the US comes from Alaska, not Oregon, but I'll even grant you
> that Scotland and Sweden beat anything Oregon has to offer. So?
There you go again. Most of the salmon in the US doesn't come from Alaska at all.
It comes from BC and it comes from farms.
Most wild salmon are caught off the coast of British Columbia, actually, and together
with farm raised in BC, BC accounts for about 500 million dollars worth or about 625
thousand metric tons annually. This represents 1/4 the worlds production.
The wild salmon industry in Alaska is a reported dismal 130 million dollars in size.
Hardly dominant - certainly not anywhere near the "most" you propose. Alaska still
bans salmon farming - so basically, that's it - 130 million dollars at about $0.40
per pound - makes about 325 million pounds (about 162,000 tonnes) - total. This is
less than 10% of the world's output annually.
But then farmed salmon production (1.2 million tonnes annually) exceeds wild salmon
globally anyway (750,000 tonnes). Farmed salmon is BCs largest agricultural export
crop. Alaska isn't getting into the farmed area because the small commercial
fisherman can't face the price competition and they've mad it illegal.
Farmed Maine salmon production is now past 30 million pounds annually.
The major competitors to US production are Chile and Canada.
So, do most salmon in the US come from Alaska? No. Obviously not.
> >So, where does that leave this?
> Yeah, that's the question.
If you want to make statements of fact - try and verify the data.
> >I'm all for opinion entitlements, but Vitaly, at least get the basic facts
> >straight before you go to the Europe bashing.
> How 'bout this: I'll get the basic facts straight, and you'll make an attempt to
> read what I wrote (not what you imagined I wrote, but what I actually did write).
You have yet to get a fact to support your opinion of culinary domination. Every
time you spout a fact, it turns to factoid and then to mush.
If you're so careless with the facts, what credibility the opinions?
Play again?
amp
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Most fishing anywhere is large scale commercial fishing.
> >
> >Where do you come up with these tidbits of misinformation? UK fisheries industry
> >employees 22,000 in 581 concerns - that is an average of 78 employees per. Not
> >exactly Large Scale.
> 78 employees *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. You are talking
> trawlers, I am talking a guy with twenty lobster traps.
78 employees is far from large scale. 10 trawlers and a cannery is not large scale
commercial fishing. $5-10 million a year in turnover is NOT a big business - 1-2
billion, now your talking. Most fishing is small, family run - not large industrial
and corporate - with the exception of Japan.
> >> It's hard to find only because the fish/seafood species are different
> >> (probably my most favorite seafood is something called ``percepes'' which I
> >> only saw in Spain and Portugal, never in the US). Otherwise, there are plenty
> >> of little harbors on both coasts of the US where you can drive up to the pier
> >> and buy fish from a small boat, or have it cooked right there and then.
> >> Places like Princeton-by-the-Sea and Moss Landing near where I live, or
> >> similar places in New England. I've seen plenty. Much prettier than Europe,
> >> too.
> >
> >Defeats the whole argument that it's big and commercial - now it's small and
> >quaint?
> All I am saying that small and quaint *exists* in America, and it's not hard, if
> you live near the coast, to drive up to a harbor and get your fish fresh in the
> same manner you would in Spain and Portugal. Are you actually reading the thread?
First it's big and commercial and now it's small and quaint - are you just contrarian
or do you think no one will notice.
"...is better than in coastal Europe." "...Much prettier than Europe, too." "...most
of the west coast and New England are cold water." [in reference to cold water fish
being better]
So it really isn't "in the same manner", it's bigger, better, and American. What a
bunch of crap. What you are saying is that no matter what, America is better than
Europe for any kind of food - this time using seafood as an example.
> >> This is true, but most of the west coast and New England are cold water.
> >
> >As is the Baltic.
> Yes. So?
> >But then again, you don't get much mahi mahi in cold water, now do you.
> No. So?
> >Grouper doesn't do so well in cold water, nor does tuna. Red snapper
> >- now there's a taste favorite.
> All true. So?
So this massive dominance based on cold water geography is what, hot air?
> >If you want salmon, Scotland and Sweden beat anything Oregon has to offer.
> Most of salmon in the US comes from Alaska, not Oregon, but I'll even grant you
> that Scotland and Sweden beat anything Oregon has to offer. So?
There you go again. Most of the salmon in the US doesn't come from Alaska at all.
It comes from BC and it comes from farms.
Most wild salmon are caught off the coast of British Columbia, actually, and together
with farm raised in BC, BC accounts for about 500 million dollars worth or about 625
thousand metric tons annually. This represents 1/4 the worlds production.
The wild salmon industry in Alaska is a reported dismal 130 million dollars in size.
Hardly dominant - certainly not anywhere near the "most" you propose. Alaska still
bans salmon farming - so basically, that's it - 130 million dollars at about $0.40
per pound - makes about 325 million pounds (about 162,000 tonnes) - total. This is
less than 10% of the world's output annually.
But then farmed salmon production (1.2 million tonnes annually) exceeds wild salmon
globally anyway (750,000 tonnes). Farmed salmon is BCs largest agricultural export
crop. Alaska isn't getting into the farmed area because the small commercial
fisherman can't face the price competition and they've mad it illegal.
Farmed Maine salmon production is now past 30 million pounds annually.
The major competitors to US production are Chile and Canada.
So, do most salmon in the US come from Alaska? No. Obviously not.
> >So, where does that leave this?
> Yeah, that's the question.
If you want to make statements of fact - try and verify the data.
> >I'm all for opinion entitlements, but Vitaly, at least get the basic facts
> >straight before you go to the Europe bashing.
> How 'bout this: I'll get the basic facts straight, and you'll make an attempt to
> read what I wrote (not what you imagined I wrote, but what I actually did write).
You have yet to get a fact to support your opinion of culinary domination. Every
time you spout a fact, it turns to factoid and then to mush.
If you're so careless with the facts, what credibility the opinions?
Play again?
amp
Aug 16th 2002, 4:12 pm
#1335
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ATM's.......
Frank Matthews <[email protected]> iterated.....
> Of course if you managed some History with the Latin you would understand that it
> applies to the whole Peninsula. Even Gibraltar.
We schooled in the Latin and in Uropeen History are a Hell of a lot more comfortable
with Iberian Peninsula, Iberia and Iberians as the name for the place and the folks.
It makes what to do with Portugal and the 'guesers a lot simpler, while covering
assorted Basques and Catalonians into Separatism with a common mantle.
"Hispanic" is a late comer as a generic and common USEnglish term, applied throughout
multileveled social and governmental bureaucratese newspeak to include all sorts and
conditions originating SotB(1)or long resident in the US but bearing "Spanish"
surnames. Obviously, Hondurans and folks from belize w/"English" backgrounds/names
would be unlikely to be considered "Hispanic", while Native Americans (from Mexico
South) are in US parlance and practice Hispanic, as are for classification and
federal program purposes, those of Portuguese descent (and IIRC, Cape Verdeans, sacks
of Canarians, & Azoreans resident in the US) and Brazilians if they want to be (and
some don't). Folks in the European dependancies (present and former) may claim
Hispanic affiliation more as a matter of surname than as of blood. In Cuba, there
are countless descendants of slaves, absent any Spanish genetic transfusions, who
carry surnames inherited from ownership or self-adoption, who are "Hispanic" in a
sense of language, probably to optimal determinate.
Then along came came in the US Southwest "Mexican American" of greater specificity,
but potentially a problem for many residents of New Mexico who bear Hispanic
surnames, but either of Native American, mixed Spanish/Native American, mixed
Anglo/Spanish/NA, and, legemndarily, maybe even some almost gachupines, "puros" with
no Native Americam admixture. They may be uncomfortable with the inaccurate Mexican
American appellation, considering that their Spanish ancestors settled what is now
New Mexico for Spain, and they lived only 25 years under loose and ineffective,
almost invisible government by Mexico.
The permutations of Hispanicism are subject to cynicism in some quarters, almost to
the extent that USAians race about pinning down a 32nd here or there of tribal
affiliation (often in tribes with existences somewhat fictional) to sell cigarets or
start a casino. Then among Hispanics, often far more conscious of caste, as a matter
of origin/skin color (Lighter is brighter!) or status/length of residence (That
mojado -"wet"!), are all sorts of grades and levels - the gachupine/criollo/mestizo
sort of thing.
TM "Majorcan Canaanite" Oliver
(1)SotB - "South of the Border...."
> Of course if you managed some History with the Latin you would understand that it
> applies to the whole Peninsula. Even Gibraltar.
We schooled in the Latin and in Uropeen History are a Hell of a lot more comfortable
with Iberian Peninsula, Iberia and Iberians as the name for the place and the folks.
It makes what to do with Portugal and the 'guesers a lot simpler, while covering
assorted Basques and Catalonians into Separatism with a common mantle.
"Hispanic" is a late comer as a generic and common USEnglish term, applied throughout
multileveled social and governmental bureaucratese newspeak to include all sorts and
conditions originating SotB(1)or long resident in the US but bearing "Spanish"
surnames. Obviously, Hondurans and folks from belize w/"English" backgrounds/names
would be unlikely to be considered "Hispanic", while Native Americans (from Mexico
South) are in US parlance and practice Hispanic, as are for classification and
federal program purposes, those of Portuguese descent (and IIRC, Cape Verdeans, sacks
of Canarians, & Azoreans resident in the US) and Brazilians if they want to be (and
some don't). Folks in the European dependancies (present and former) may claim
Hispanic affiliation more as a matter of surname than as of blood. In Cuba, there
are countless descendants of slaves, absent any Spanish genetic transfusions, who
carry surnames inherited from ownership or self-adoption, who are "Hispanic" in a
sense of language, probably to optimal determinate.
Then along came came in the US Southwest "Mexican American" of greater specificity,
but potentially a problem for many residents of New Mexico who bear Hispanic
surnames, but either of Native American, mixed Spanish/Native American, mixed
Anglo/Spanish/NA, and, legemndarily, maybe even some almost gachupines, "puros" with
no Native Americam admixture. They may be uncomfortable with the inaccurate Mexican
American appellation, considering that their Spanish ancestors settled what is now
New Mexico for Spain, and they lived only 25 years under loose and ineffective,
almost invisible government by Mexico.
The permutations of Hispanicism are subject to cynicism in some quarters, almost to
the extent that USAians race about pinning down a 32nd here or there of tribal
affiliation (often in tribes with existences somewhat fictional) to sell cigarets or
start a casino. Then among Hispanics, often far more conscious of caste, as a matter
of origin/skin color (Lighter is brighter!) or status/length of residence (That
mojado -"wet"!), are all sorts of grades and levels - the gachupine/criollo/mestizo
sort of thing.
TM "Majorcan Canaanite" Oliver
(1)SotB - "South of the Border...."