Horst Prillinger

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Miguel
Cruz) wrote:

    > Which doesn't exactly explain all those votes Haider got.

Which doesn't explain the votes that Berlusconi got. Or Pim Fortuyn was about to get
before he was killed.

-H

--
Things to do in Vienna off the tourist path:
http://www.aardvark.at/vienna/ Die Wiener
U-Bahn - Information on public transport in Vienna:
http://www.aardvark.at/metro/

Hatunen

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:05:25 -0400 (EDT), [email protected] (Paul Ding) wrote:

    >Dave Hatunen writes:
    >> You may not recall the early 1960s when the only Mcdonalds burger was the basic
    >> one they still sell, but tehn it was $0.19.
    >I recall the early 1960s when it was 15c, not 19c. The fries were 12c. (Sandy's
    >reversed the pricing - charging 12c for hamburgers and 15c for fries - and managed
    >to get a lot of customers that way.)
    >But they *don't* sell that sandwich any more. It was a grilled burger on a grilled
    >bun. The sandwich McDonald's sells today is a microwaved burger on a raw bun.
    >They don't sell the same fries either. They've gone from a fresh-cut
    >partially-peeled fry, cooked in animal fat, to a frozen completely-peeled fry cooked
    >in vegetable shortening.

I'll have to check next time I get close to one. But I do seem to recall them at
19 cents at the McDonalds south of Dayton where the Interstate to Cincinnati
began. Perhaps the price vaired regionally, though, this being c. 1961. Or my
memory fails me.

Those original burgers were a godsend to a soldier on a private's pay driving home
for a weekend pass. And the fries were actually pretty good. I believe Julia Child
once expressed a fondness for them. But that was when they were still fried in lard.

************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******

Amp_spamfree

[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]> , amp_spamfree
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Most fishing is a family with a handful of boats selling to canners and
    > >wholesalers - I gave you the data but you insist...fine.
    > Yeah, I insist on something that's patently obvious: a family with a handful of
    > boats *is* large-scale comparing with the kind of fishing we've been talking
    > about in this thread. I don't really know what you are arguing with. That 2 is
    > more than 78? Keep on truckin'.

The kind of fishing you've been talking about is EXACTLY that, a family with a
handful of boats selling to locals, canners, and fishmongers. You live on the
freaking cost - and insist that is where you buy fish - ask them.

    > >> It's better for the variety of fish,
    > >
    > >No it's not - not even close. You missed out on dozens upon dozens of warm water
    > >varieties.
    > ... most of which are available in the US, of course.

But not fresh on the local dock - at least not like I can get in Europe, and wasn't
that the point?

Or was it this? "It's better for the variety of fish..." Or are you going to
backpedal and say that it's better for the variety of IMPORTED fish as opposed to the
local dock-fresh stuff?

How much fresh squid are you getting off those Alaskan trawlers, btw.

    > >> But if you want to have a good meal 3 times a day and are not willing to limit
    > >> yourself to a ``mix of French and Italian influences,'' America is undeniably
    > >> better than Europe.
    > >
    > >Which explains Macoroni Grill, Fudruckers, and all those wonderfully American
    > >innovations.
    > And how does the existence of Macaroni Grill, Fuddrucker's and such contradict
    > the wide availability of excellent food in America? Do you understand that (NOT
    > X exists) does not imply (X does not exist)? Or is this one of those insights
    > limited to junior faculty with a backpack budget?

Maybe the dominance of these large chains makes your premise of "wide availability"
and "excellent food" a bit tenuous?

The widely available American restaurant food consists of these large chains - that's
what wide availability means - or will Vitaly offer up his own definition of "widely
available" to include two men and a boat?

Macaroni Grill - now hows that for Italian influences.

    > >> Maybe you are talking about salmon imported to the US, in which case the
    > >> biggest source is not BC, it's Chile (your numbers seem a few years old).
    > >
    > >And you have NO numbers...or is this too a Vitaly op?
    > Fine. I went to Google and searched for ``salmon imports chile canada'' It gave
    > me this reference: http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories/032501/fis_fish_forecast.shtm-
    > l
    > Quote: ``Chile accounted for 49 percent of all U.S. salmon imports last year
    > [2000], up from 38 percent in 1999. According to Chris McDowell of Salmon Market
    > Information Service, Chile is the leader in salmon imports by a margin of 39
    > percent over its closest competitor, Canada''
    > Which part of it do you not understand?

This part:

"Most of salmon in the US comes from Alaska, not Oregon..."

That's what you said - though now it's Chile? Hardly American Salmon. Norway
outproduces Chile two to one. Until 2000, BC dominated as the source of US eaten
salmon. Still does in terms of whole as opposed to filet.


    > >Do you REALLY think you are eating Alaskan wild salmon when you go to the local
    > >docks for your seafood?
    > No, I don't. *You* brought up salmon in a discussion of what's available when
    > you go to the local docks, and if there is one place in the US where it's salmon,
    > that would be Alaska, not BC and not Oregon.

Yep, sure - if you like it canned.

    > >Wonderbread comes to mind. Processed bleached wheat. [...]
    > >
    > >Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical
    > >american lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's
    > >that? Camembert?
    > I am not a slave-owner, so I don't know who you are talking about when referring
    > to ``my'' typical American. What I do know is what I see when I walk into my
    > grocery store. There is Wonderbread... and then there is the bakery section with
    > 30 kinds of freshly baked bread.

And which gets the most facings and sells the most loaves?

    > There is cheez-wiz... and then there is the cheese section, with 50 or 100 cheeses
    > from all over the world (camembert included).

Where do you shop where there are 50 to 100 different cheeses?

    > There is bud lite... and four dozen microbrews and imported beers stacked up to
    > the ceiling. The ratio of this stuff to wonderbread and bud lite plus fifty
    > excellent restaurants with cuisine from all corners of the world on just about
    > every other suburban street tell more about what the typical American lives on
    > than your hot air.

Look at your top selling brands and then tell me again what is typical. How long
have you been a "typical" Amircan, Vitaly?

    > >> But what they post about Europe is hardly better, even going as far as
    > >> suggesting Hard Rock Cafe as a source of American food in Paris.
    > >
    > >If it isn't American, what is it?
    > Is Macaroni Grill Italian? If it isn't Italian, what is it?

Olive Garden with better wine and higher prices. It is Americanized processed
italian cheese food.

    > >I know, and that's why Im giving up on you - because your ignorance is quite
    > >staggering, exceeded only by your pompous arrogance.
    > It's rather amusing that someone who was ignorant and pompous enough to lecture
    > me on British visa regulations seems annoyed by my ``arrogance.'' So, road
    > warrior, is it possible to enter the UK without a passport or not?

Sure - but no matter - you probably walk on water, too.

So Vitaly - getting the backpack cleaned up and the jeans patched for your next
passport free trip?

Amp_spamfree

[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> I don't know a whole lot about cars, but I thought that Mercedeses have a
    > >> reputation for high quality (correct me if I am wrong). So, lots of
    > >> Mercedeses in the US would show, if anything, that Americans import quality
    > >> stuff from Europe, whereas Europeans seem to go mostly for assorted American
    > >> trash: sitcoms, Planet Hollywood, etc.
    > >
    > >Because Europeans are not, as always, suckers for all things American. OK, blue
    > >jeans perhaps, but not Timex. Maybe Europeans are more discerning about quality
    > >than Americans?
    > ... and this explains why Americans import Mercedeses, while Europeans import
    > Planet Hollywood and McDonalds? Because Europeans are more discerning about
    > quality than Americans? Sure.

There are more billions sold in the US than anywhere else in the world
- and there's no accounting for taste.

    > >In no case has anyone brought forward examples of true American cuisine that
    > >couldn't be traced to a specific location or non-American ethnicity.
    > Of course it can be traced to a specific location. All good food can. Do you
    > think your beloved French cuisine cannot be traced to a specific location? *All*
    > good food is regional (Southwestern, Alsacian, Auvergnat, etc.), even more so in
    > Europe than in the US.

Oh there you go again. Those big generalizations - America has no national food?
Then how can you make these generalizations about American food superiority? It
isn't American food, it must be food in America?

    > And I think TMOliver has done an admirable job rubbing your face into examples of
    > American food that go far beyond your ``plateful of meat and potatoes.''

Regional specialties available in select establishments to varying levels of quality
hardly qualify as a national cuisine or evidence of culinary superiority.

    > >> It's different in different parts of the US, and, for example, in California,
    > >> yes, it would most certainly include poblanos.
    > >
    > >Then it isn't exactly "American" cuisine, it's Californian.
    > California is part of America. America is a big place, you know, it would be
    > really strange if cuisine were the same everywhere. There is California cuisine
    > and New England cuisine and Tex-Mex cuisine just like there is Portuguese cuisine
    > and Greek cuisine and Swedish cuisine in Europe.

In Europe you characterize them by nationality - in the US you used a state level
descriptor, a regional descriptor, and another country as a descriptor. Get it now?
    > >> Same deal for ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe.
    > >
    > >If it isn't American food, what the hell is it?
    > It's a corporate version of American food, from which all spirit has been
    > drained.

It is the national standard cuisine - available in most cities and most states in the
US. It is the face of American food - as seen by others.

    > >No, Olive Garden's characterize AMERICANIZED Italian food. And that's the point -
    > >Hard Rock represents American cuisine - if not, then what?
    > What Olive Garden and Macaroni Grill are to Italian food, Hard Rock Cafe is to
    > American food. Describe it any way you want. Neither is really representative
    > of its ostensible source.

It's source is America - it typifies the broad national concept of food. It's not
Charleston she crab soup or NE clam chouder - it's American food.

    > >What characterizes food is neither ingredients or cooking style but rather tastes
    > >and textures. You've never had professional culinary training, have you.
    > Even without professional culinary training, I know that you cannot get a taste
    > or texture of a truffle out of an avocado. It's all about the ingredients and
    > how they are cooked. If the ingredients are good and cooked properly, taste and
    > texture will follow.

But then why would you. But I can get a variety of tastes and textures out of a
chicken breast using the same ingredients, and similarly, I can get the same taste
and texture using different ingredients and cooking styles. Same chicken breast.
And that's why food is characterized by taste and texture.

    > >Then provide an example or two of typical American cuisine that is readily
    > >available in American restaurants across America.
    > As soon as you provide an example or two of typical European cuisine that is
    > readily available in European restaurants across Europe.

National descriptors are the key. Or is it more convenient to change the rules as
you go along?

    > America is a big place. In some parts, you'd be able to get a clam chowder
    > everywhere. In others, it might be a taco or a top-grade steak. Just like in
    > Europe. Only, unlike Europe, in America there is also excellent cuisine from
    > other places - from Thailand and Burma and Bolivia and just about any country you
    > can think of.

There is no American cuisine then. In consideration that your living experience in
the US is exclusively coastal - seems that if I want Burmese in St. Louis, you
wouldn't be my "go to guy", huh.

    > >Still, you can't come up with a single example what makes Hard Rock, Fudruckers or
    > >Fridays unamerican. Or perhaps for seafood one should try Red Lobster? These
    > >chains are your staples - they are all over and represent what the majority of
    > >Americans know of and associate with American food other than the drive through.
    > I cannot make a judgment about the ``majority'' of Americans. Everywhere I've
    > lived, and I've lived in quite a few places around the US (although most were on
    > the coasts, not in the heartland),

Washington State and the Bay Area of California...yep, now there's diversity.

    >the staples aren't Hard Rock Cafe or Fuddrucker's, but simple burger and taco
    >stands, lobster shacks, Chinese take-outs, Vietnamese noodle joints, etc.

You need to get into the heartland and see what staples you have in places like Des
Moines, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, and Little Rock.

Vitaly, get a grip - look at the huge number of chain restaurants in your own
neighborhood and tell me that this isn't typical American fare. You hate to admit,
but the majority of Americans are not the culinary afficiondos you want to make them
out to be. You are living in a very unique and quite different part of the US. Using
it as your barometer as to what is American has obviously confused you.

    > >> You seem to know as little about good food to Tokyo as in Paris or America.
    > >> You most certainly don't need more than $70 to eat well in Tokyo. You can
    > >> certainly spend $70 and $700, if you wish, but it's hardly necessary.
    > >
    > >And how much was the Kobe beef?
    > If you think that good food in Tokyo is limited to Kobe beef, you really need a
    > decent guidebook. And move this thread to rec.travel.asia. I am sure folks over
    > there will be glad to help you out.

When was the last time you ate in a reasonably nice restaurant in Tokyo?

    > >> You are not thinking that I am a junior faculty with a backpack budget, are
    > >> you? (FYI: I am not junior faculty, nor do I have backpack budgets).
    > >
    > >2 years out of university - what are you, some Russian nobleman?
    > You don't really know what you are talking about, do you? You have no idea what
    > it is I do, how many years out of university I am, what kind of budgets I travel
    > on. You basically know zilch about me. Which doesn't stop you from making one
    > ridiculous assertion about me after another. What gives?

[url="http://www.csl.sri.com/people/shmat/"]http://www.csl.sri.com/people/shmat/[/ur-
l] and
http://www.csl.sri.com/users/shmat/

    > >your brush with culinary greatness doesn't compare to what many of my colleagues
    > >and I do - day in and day out.
    > Whereas *your* brush with culinary greatness convinced you that American food is
    > a plateful of meat and potatoes. Since you seem to be a fan of upscale places
    > and are rather liberal with dispensing dining advice, I'll generously share one
    > more tip with you. When back in Chicago, check out a little American place
    > called Charlie Trotter's. I presume you can afford it.

I've had the priviledge, thank you. I've always liked Shaws Crab House and Grappa on
Chestnut...

And by the way, Charlies is hardly a "little American" place.


    > >You have no concept of what execs know or don't know about food.
    > Possible. I do have a concept of what *you* know about food, which, by the way,
    > is based solely on your postings, not on the kind of ridiculous inferences you
    > attempt to make about me.

You have your own concept...ok, so?

    > >> For all I know, ask them about ethnic food in Paris, and they'll send you to
    > >> Foc Ly for Chinese and Hard Rock Cafe for American.
    > >
    > >Because you can't afford one


    > I cannot afford what? Foc Ly? You just don't get it, do you? You see, for
    > about the price of a dinner at Foc Ly I can have a lunch at Lucas-Carton, and
    > (presumably) just like you, I'd rather eat at Lucas-Carton than Foc Ly. Unlike
    > you, however, I realize that Foc Ly *bad* Chinese food, while Lucas-Carton is
    > *good* French food. My distaste for Foc Ly has nothing to do with the price.

Your opinion of the food at Foc Ly is simply your opinion. Since your tastes seem to
go toward Americanized ethnic food, I can understand why Europeanized ethnic food may
not be to your liking. As far as Lucas Carton - well, you go right ahead and lunch
there - but if you worked for me and enjoyed the cuisine in the manner it is
designed, you'd be pretty much fired.

    > Unlike you, I am not obsessed with the price, because it's a poor indicator of
    > quality. An expensive place may be good or bad, and so can be a cheap place.
    > Depending on my mood and circumstances, I may have a dinner at a 2-star
    > restaurant or buy a crepe from a corner stand. Whereas you, in your pomposity
    > and ignorance, seem to think that because you spend $70 on a dinner, the food
    > must be good.

When I spend $70 on dinner I have expectations that it surpasses American food.
Although, I did manage to spend that for Pizza Hut in Stockholm - now there's another
fine American innovation.

    > >and don't recognize your own cuisine in the other
    > Just like you don't recognize Italian cuisine in Olive Garden. The mere name
    > means nothing. It's all about the ingredients and how they are cooked.

Nope - the ingredients and how they are cooked have little to do with it - it's all
about tastes and textures. You combine the right flavours and incorporate the right
textures, and a simple meal becomes gastronomically inviting, or, American.

Thanks for playing - it's all too much fun. So, you go right ahead and enjoy your 50
San fran restaurants and leave the Eurpean cuisine for the Europeans.

amp

Miguel Cruz

amp_spamfree <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> ... and this explains why Americans import Mercedeses, while Europeans import
    >> Planet Hollywood and McDonalds? Because Europeans are more discerning about
    >> quality than Americans? Sure.
    > There are more billions sold in the US than anywhere else in the world

Doesn't say much - no other rich country has as many people.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in
DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Paul Ding

Dave Hatunen writes:

    > But I do seem to recall them at 19 cents at the McDonalds south of Dayton where the
    > Interstate to Cincinnati began.

I'm trying to figure out which store you're talking about.

Interstate 75 is the one between Dayton and Cincinnati. But it doesn't begin there -
it runs all the way from Michigan to Florida.

There used to be (and presumably still is) a McDonald's in Centerville, near the
Dayton Mall.

    > Perhaps the price vaired regionally, though, this being c. 1961. Or my memory
    > fails me.

That story of Sandy's reversing the prices dates from a little later, I think. That
started in Kokomo, if I remember correctly. That particular Sandy's was owned by
Weise, the Indianapolis auto dealer, and was managed by the guy who ended up starting
Ponderosa in Dayton.

There were some Sandy's in Dayton; I think they were owned by Vic Cassano. They ended
up getting converted by Hardee's; I think the entire chain was converted, but I don't
know. The Ponderosa chain was purchased by Metromedia, and headquarters was moved to
Texas, IIRC.

Someone pointed out to me a year or two ago that you can tell when a cable channel is
successful. That's when they stop doing the things that *made* them successful.
Comedy Channel drops Short Attention Span Theatre. MTV starts running everything
*except* music videos. ESPN stops carrying quirky sports.

It occurs to me that restaurants do the same thing. McDonald's used to have a
short menu, no seating, fast service and tasty food. Ponderosa offered cheap,
fast, hot and fairly tasty steak, baked potato, and lettuce salad, instead of a
buffet. And Cassano's didn't offer peanuts or pineapple on your pizza, last time
I was in Ohio, either.

I have to admire the courage - and the physical stamina - of anyone in their 60s who
adopts a preschooler. Not that I didn't respect you highly before this, Dave; it's
just one more thing. I hope she brings you much joy (and vice versa.)

--
http://paulding.net Many useful utilities

"Do only what only you can do." Rest in peace, Professor Dijkstra

Paul Ding

amp writes:
    > Nope - the ingredients and how they are cooked have little to do with it - it's all
    > about tastes and textures.

As if tastes and textures have nothing to do with ingredients and how they
are cooked.

The chickens sold in Philadelphia are different breeds, raised on different
feed, than the chickens sold in Kokomo. The result is different taste and
different texture.

The cornmeal you buy in Biloxi is made from a different variety of corn, and is
ground differently than the cornmeal offered for sale in Ann Arbor.

Consequently, asserting that there is one american cuisine is like asserting that
there is one european cuisine - or that all white wines taste the same.

And asserting that McDonalds tastes the same in Europe as they do in the US is also
absurd. The beef is the US is different both in breed and the way it is fed. The
potatoes in the US are a different variety of spud, with different taste and
texture. The buns in the US are made from different varieties of wheat, grown in a
different climate.

--
http://paulding.net Many useful utilities

"Do only what only you can do." Rest in peace, Professor Dijkstra

Tim Challenger

    > And asserting that McDonalds tastes the same in Europe as they do in the US is also
    > absurd. .....<snip> ..... The potatoes in the US are a
different variety of spud,
    > with different taste and texture.

That isn't always the case. IIRC there have been a number of bombings in the past
years in India of McD's "restaurants". Apparently they were objecting to a number of
things(hte eating of the holy cow, for example), one of which was the insistence of
McD on using their variety of (naturally imported, expensive and not really suited to
locall growing conditions) potato instead of the local varieties. I remember it being
reported in New Scientist, maybe I can find a link with more accurate info. I wonder
how it really is in other countries with "standardisation" of the products. Tim.

Dick Spargur

Paul Ding ([email protected]) wrote:
    : Dave Hatunen writes:

    : > But I do seem to recall them at 19 cents at the McDonalds south of Dayton where
    : > the Interstate to Cincinnati began.

    : I'm trying to figure out which store you're talking about.

    : Interstate 75 is the one between Dayton and Cincinnati. But it doesn't begin there
    : - it runs all the way from Michigan to Florida.

I live near there too. In the time Dave is referring to, I-75 was not completed
through Dayton; it stopped north of town and resumed just south of it. The
starting point Dave is referring to was near old US 25 (South Dixie Highway) and SR
741 in Moraine, just north of West Carolton. Old US 25 virtually disappeared as
I-75 was completed.

That McDonald's is still there in Moraine, cranking out burgers and fries of the
usual quality... An like Dave implied, when you're a poor student or solder or
airman, it's a God send. When you can afford better, it becomes, ultimately, a
last resort...

--

yours, Richard C. Spargur (Dick)
B5/F4

Hatunen

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:05:47 -0400 (EDT), [email protected] (Paul Ding) wrote:

    >Dave Hatunen writes:
    >> But I do seem to recall them at 19 cents at the McDonalds south of Dayton where
    >> the Interstate to Cincinnati began.
    >I'm trying to figure out which store you're talking about.
    >Interstate 75 is the one between Dayton and Cincinnati. But it doesn't begin there -
    >it runs all the way from Michigan to Florida.

In 1962 the part through Dayton wansn't built and one picked up the freeway
southbound at, um, Kettering, I think it was. The McD was right at the botton of the
end of the freeway.

[...]

    >I have to admire the courage - and the physical stamina - of anyone in their 60s who
    >adopts a preschooler. Not that I didn't respect you highly before this, Dave; it's
    >just one more thing. I hope she brings you much joy (and vice versa.)

(blush)


************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******

Mika

[email protected] (amp_spamfree) wrote in message >
    > Let's take this one step further - Mika, where did chicken fried steak originate?

No idea.

    > Don't ask me, ask Terry Thompson-Anderson, executive chef of Maner Lake Lodge just
    > outside West Columbia, Tx. (Try the Austin Chronicle or Texas Monthly for a review
    > of Texas on a Plate - her new cookbook).

Haven't seen a Texas Monthly in a while. Used to like it. Hey, I still have an issue
with a picture of me somewhere in my parent's basement.

    > So, Wienerschnitzel is German and can be made with pork and then called
    > Scweinschnitzel Wiener Art. Austin Texas is the center of Texas' rich German
    > tradition, and low and behold, the infamous Chicken fried steak is a close relative
    > of the schnitzel...interesting. And not just my opinions - actual facts backed up
    > by easily verifiable evidence. Amazing.

Wienerschnitzel is supposed to be veal when nothing else is specified. If pork or
turkey is involved, it has to be specified on the menu. At least in GER. Never
thought that chicken fried steak had GER/AT roots.

    > When schnitzel is served with brown gravy its called jagerschnitzel, when it is
    > served with not

I don't know if this is universally accepted. Jaegerschnitzel as I know it is an
abomination, simply some sort of meat (usually pork) with some generic onion-based
sauce, usually. If anyone wants to make fun of lousy German cuisine, Jaegerschnitzel
is usually produced as evidence - mostly by German critics. It's some sort of
post-war invention, from the time where not being hungry after a meal came first.

    > Or, if you believe some of the others, that would make Wienerwald a Viennese forest
    > and not a German baked chicken take away?

Friedrich Jahn *was* Austrian - who named his chain after the forest. And Wienerwald
was probably the first German/Austrian fast food chain. And it was very successful
for a while. Wienerwald restaurants still exist, and their take-away chickens aren't
bad and not really good either - but I stop by maybe 3-4 times a year. Jahn greatly
expanded in the 80s, bought several American chains such as IHOP, and went bust as a
consequence. Often cited here as a rags-riches-rags story.

M

Mika

[email protected] (Hatunen) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 16 Aug 2002 16:10:32 -0700, [email protected] (Mika) wrote:
    > >[email protected] (Hatunen) wrote in message
    > >
    > >> That's pure conjecture. I have my doubts; the Austrians have always had a strong
    > >> patriotic streak and considered the Austro-Hungarian Empire far superior to
    > >> Bismarck's Reich.
    > >
    > >Time for a trip to the library. Keywords: 1871, Reichseinheit, grossdeutsche
    > >Loesung, kleindeutsche Loesung.
    > >
    > >>In fact, even Germany was still pretty loosely held together until Hitler forced
    > >>the submission of the laender to Berlin's authority.
    > >
    > >Where did you get this? Even by usenet standards, this isn't even close to an
    > >oversimplification, it is pure bollox. As a native of Luebeck, you'll get an ever
    > >so slight nod from me though, since the GROeFAZ saw it fit to make our city part
    > >of Prussia.
    > Is it your position then that even during the Weimar Republic Bacaria and Prussia
    > had no autonomy whatsoever?

I didn't say that. I said that Weimar wasn't some loose collection of states as the
pre-1871 states were. The union was achieved in 1871. The autonomy of, say, Bavaria
disappeared in the process. Ludwig II accepted the bribe that came with making a
Prussian the Kaiser (Wilhelm I), and went on to build Neuschwanstein and other
tourist attractions. His autonomy after 71 was essentially nil, long before Weimar.

Weimar is a different story altogether, as it was the first republic (if you
disregard the Hanseatic cities).

And the tragedy of the Weimar Repuclic was that it was a democracy that had a
parliament full of anti-democratic forces. The Republic itself wasn't all that bad.

M

Vitaly Shmatikov

In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
<[email protected]> wrote:
    >The kind of fishing you've been talking about is EXACTLY that, a family with a
    >handful of boats selling to locals, canners, and fishmongers. You live on the
    >freaking cost - and insist that is where you buy fish - ask them.

They would be a darn big family if they had anywhere close to 78 persons. But they
don't. They might have a handful of boats, but not a handful of *trawlers*,
contrary to what you claimed. They are very small-scale, comparing to the average
fishing operation in Europe (or the US, for that matter). Which is what I've been
saying all along.

Just like in Spain or Portugal, drive up the coast from Mexico to Canada, and with
the exception of LA and a few wild stretches like Big Sur and Lost Coast, it would
be nothing but small harbors, small boats, plenty of fresh fish and seafood, and
quite picturesque, too. Comparing with this, most fishing anywhere *is*
large-scale, and that includes your average 78-employee UK operation.

    >> And how does the existence of Macaroni Grill, Fuddrucker's and such contradict
    >> the wide availability of excellent food in America? Do you understand that (NOT
    >> X exists) does not imply (X does not exist)? Or is this one of those insights
    >> limited to junior faculty with a backpack budget?
    >Maybe the dominance of these large chains makes your premise of "wide availability"
    >and "excellent food" a bit tenuous?

What makes you think they are dominant? On this coast, I don't recall if I ever
saw a Fuddrucker's, and there is maybe one Macaroni Grill for 50 miles. For each
chain outlet, there are two ethnic restaurants, a BBQ pit, a taqueria, and more
good food than you can eat in a lifetime.

    >The widely available American restaurant food consists of these large chains -
    >that's what wide availability means - or will Vitaly offer up his own definition of
    >"widely available" to include two men and a boat?

Widely available means just that - a Hunan restaurant to the right, a Thai to the
left, a Salvadoran taqueria around the corner, a fish'n'chips down the street, a
hamburger grill across the way, and an Ethiopean restaurant in the next suburb.
That's the way it is in most metro areas in the US, with some regional variations,
of course.

    >> ``Chile accounted for 49 percent of all U.S. salmon imports last year [2000], up
    >> from 38 percent in 1999. According to Chris McDowell of Salmon Market
    >> Information Service, Chile is the leader in salmon imports by a margin of 39
    >> percent over its closest competitor, Canada''
    >> Which part of it do you not understand?
    >This part:
    >"Most of salmon in the US comes from Alaska, not Oregon..."

In the context of the discussion of what's available on the docks, yes, most of
salmon in the US comes from Alaska. *You* (not me) brought up salmon and *you*
(not me) switched the discussion to imported salmon, and then claimed that most of
it comes from BC (it doesn't). Why would you do that? Beats me.

    >> What I do know is what I see when I walk into my grocery store. There is
    >> Wonderbread... and then there is the bakery section with 30 kinds of freshly
    >> baked bread.
    >And which gets the most facings and sells the most loaves?

Around here it would be sourdough and baguettes, which are baked on the premises.
Folks also seem to like ciabattas from Acme and Il Fornaio (at least I think they
do, since they are given the most prominent placement, right in the middle of the
bakery section).

    >> There is cheez-wiz... and then there is the cheese section, with 50 or 100
    >> cheeses from all over the world (camembert included).
    >Where do you shop where there are 50 to 100 different cheeses?

Safeway (you might have heard of them, they own Dominick's) - around 30,
Andronico's - around 50 or 70, and Milk Pail (a small independent grocery story
around here) - over 100. And no, these are not unique to California. Seattle, New
York, Houston, same thing. Probably Chicago, too (haven't shopped in a supermarket
there since 1994, so I can't say for sure).

    >> Is Macaroni Grill Italian? If it isn't Italian, what is it?
    >Olive Garden with better wine and higher prices. It is Americanized processed
    >italian cheese food.

What Macaroni Grill is to Italian food, Hard Rock Cafe is to American food.
I wouldn't want anyone to learn about Italian food from Macaroni Grill or
Olive Garden, and I wouldn't want anyone to learn about American food from
Hard Rock Cafe.

    >So Vitaly - getting the backpack cleaned up and the jeans patched for your next
    >passport free trip?

You betcha. It ain't gonna be passport-free (the passportless interlude in my life
is long past - it was more of an extended misunderstanding with various
citizenships), but off I go, in 10 days. First to New York, then to Paris
(Continental Airlines, BusinessFirst, hope my 777 will be one of those with new
sleeper seats). We backpackers like to travel in style. You look doubtful. Shall
I fax you my boarding passes?

Anyway, it's been a pleasure talkin'.

Vitaly Shmatikov

In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >> ... and this explains why Americans import Mercedeses, while Europeans import
    >> Planet Hollywood and McDonalds? Because Europeans are more discerning about
    >> quality than Americans? Sure.
    >There are more billions sold in the US than anywhere else in the world

Can it have anything to do with the fact that there are close to 300 million people
in the US? There are billions of everything sold in the US, good and bad, and I
don't observe much difference in quality between what the average European eats and
what the average American eats. What I do observe is that Europeans tend to import
the worst of American mass culture, and food is but one example of this.

    >Oh there you go again. Those big generalizations - America has no national food?
    >Then how can you make these generalizations about American food superiority? It
    >isn't American food, it must be food in America?

As I must have said 10 times already, yes, it's food in America - which includes
regional American food, European food, Asian food, African food and food from all
over the world. Spin a globe, pick a country at random, there will be a restaurant
within an easy drive.

    >> California is part of America. America is a big place, you know, it would be
    >> really strange if cuisine were the same everywhere. There is California cuisine
    >> and New England cuisine and Tex-Mex cuisine just like there is Portuguese
    >> cuisine and Greek cuisine and Swedish cuisine in Europe.
    >In Europe you characterize them by nationality - in the US you used a state level
    >descriptor, a regional descriptor, and another country as a descriptor. Get it now?

I get it. There is a wide variety of different cuisines in the US, while in Europe
you are stuck with whatever the local cuisine is, plus maybe some bastardized
version of foreign cuisine (Planet Hollywood for American, Foc Ly for Chinese).

    >> What Olive Garden and Macaroni Grill are to Italian food, Hard Rock Cafe is to
    >> American food. Describe it any way you want. Neither is really representative
    >> of its ostensible source.
    >It's source is America - it typifies the broad national concept of food. It's not
    >Charleston she crab soup or NE clam chouder - it's American food.

For each Hard Rock Cafe, there is a hundred Chinese places, Thai places, southern
(as in south of the US) places, hamburger joints and what not. For each McDonalds,
there are five that are better. Open your eyes next time you drive through an
American suburb. Notice that Mongolian BBQ. Check out that catfish fry. *That*
is American food, not corporate concepts like Hard Rock Cafe and Olive Garden.

    >There is no American cuisine then. In consideration that your living experience in
    >the US is exclusively coastal - seems that if I want Burmese in St. Louis, you
    >wouldn't be my "go to guy", huh.

Is sushi in Iowa good enough for ya? Read this:

http://www.nytimes.com-
/2002/08/14/dining/14SUSH.html

It looks like even in the heartland folks are a bit more sophisticated than you
give them credit for.

    >> Everywhere I've lived, and I've lived in quite a few places around the US
    >> (although most were on the coasts, not in the heartland),
    >Washington State and the Bay Area of California...yep, now there's diversity.

Plus New York (and the suburbs, Westchester and Jersey), Rhode Island, Chicago, St.
Louis and Los Angeles. Not everywhere, but enough to have a vague idea of what the
US gastronomic scene is like.

    >Vitaly, get a grip - look at the huge number of chain restaurants in your own
    >neighborhood and tell me that this isn't typical American fare.

I can count the number of chain restaurants in my own neighborhood on the fingers
of one hand. But even in more typical neighborhoods, they'd be outnumbered by
simple neighborhood places serving perfectly good food, both American and ethnic.

    >When was the last time you ate in a reasonably nice restaurant in Tokyo?

That would be last October. Lessee. I had three ``reasonably nice'' dinners: at
Nanao in Azabu-Juban (this was the best, dream food, faultless omakase), Roppongi
Momiji-Ya and New York Grill (at the top of the Park Hyatt in Shinjuku - not my
choice). Plus I had a perfectly fine fugu dinner at a small place in Asakusa, but
it probably wasn't expensive enough to qualify as ``reasonably nice'' by your
lights. But I also had delicious street food, like takoyaki from a street vendor
next to some shrine, and okonomiyaki at the Shinagawa station, and excellent
noodles, none of which were much more than 600-700 yen.

    >> You don't really know what you are talking about, do you? You have no idea what
    >> it is I do, how many years out of university I am, what kind of budgets I travel
    >> on. You basically know zilch about me. Which doesn't stop you from making one
    >> ridiculous assertion about me after another. What gives?
    >[url="http://www.csl.sri.com/people/shmat/"]http://www.csl.sri.com/people/shmat/[-
    >/url] http://www.csl.sri.com/users/shm-
    >at/

Wow. You learned from these what it is I do, how many years out of university I
am, and what kind of budgets I travel on? Dream on. The only thing you might have
learned is what year my degrees were granted. You probably don't know enough about
the academic world to understand the difference between leaving a university and
receiving a degree, but that's excusable. What's less excusable is your ridiculous
assumptions about my job and my budgets, which you know nothing about. I mean
zero, zilch, bugger-all. Couldn't give even a vague description or guess the
number of digits. Which is Ok, if you hadn't tried to make some ludicrous
inferences about me.

    >I've had the priviledge, thank you. I've always liked Shaws Crab House and Grappa
    >on Chestnut...

I see. That must have been where you discovered that American food is a ``slab of
meat on the grill, a bucket of fries or for the truly refined, a baked potato, and
a bowl of iceberg lettuce all washed down with a Bud Light.'' Oh my. And I
thought Shaw's Crab was this nice seafood place.

    >And by the way, Charlies is hardly a "little American" place.

Thank you, I know. I've been. We backpackers like to eat well.

    >As far as Lucas Carton - well, you go right ahead and lunch there - but if you
    >worked for me and enjoyed the cuisine in the manner it is designed, you'd be pretty
    >much fired.

Guess what? I don't work for you

    >When I spend $70 on dinner I have expectations that it surpasses American food.

That's only because you don't know much about food. When I spend $70 on dinner, I
have expectations that it's *good*, not that it surpasses someone's (mis)conception
of American food. Good food can be American, Japanese, French or Ruritanian. If
it's not good, I won't come back. If it is good, I'll gladly pay $70 for it again.
It's that simple.

    >> Just like you don't recognize Italian cuisine in Olive Garden. The mere name
    >> means nothing. It's all about the ingredients and how they are cooked.
    >Nope - the ingredients and how they are cooked have little to do with it - it's all
    >about tastes and textures.

You can't make a truffle out of an avocado. You can't make a foie gras out of
mahi-mahi. Maybe the places you frequent try to substitute textures for
ingredients. I wouldn't be surprised. All the *good* places, on the other hand,
start with fresh, quality ingredients, cook them properly, and, voila! the result
is a pleasure to eat. An elaborate concoction at Arpege or chopped octopus at a
Tokyo train station, good food is about two things: the ingredients and how they
are cooked.

Keep on truckin', mate, one of these days you'll get it.

Amp_spamfree

[email protected] (Paul Ding) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > amp writes:
    > > Nope - the ingredients and how they are cooked have little to do with it - it's
    > > all about tastes and textures.
    > As if tastes and textures have nothing to do with ingredients and how they
    > are cooked.

I can take the same ingredients from the same store and cook it in the same style
or style (i.e, bake, fry, braise, grill, or whatever) and by varying the texture
and the "taste" (the seasonings is what I mean), can provide you two completely
differnt entres.

Take a chicken, a tomato, and an onion - you get a nice (pan) fried chicken pieces
with a sliced tomato salad served chilled or as a picnic, a formal dinner of chicken
cacciatore, or chicken fingers with a mild tomato salsa appetizer. It's all taste
and texture - same ingredients, different tastes and textures.

Take a cooking class sometime and the first thing the instructure will tell you
is that food is tastes (which really is a combination of smells and seasonings)
and textures.

amp