India and the Wars
Mar 20th 2019, 1:23 pm
#856
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
Madam
There’s a whole area along the western coast of India extending from Maharashtra through to Kerala where the Konkani people inhabit - called Konkan; Goa was an enclave carved out of this by the Portuguese who tried and failed doing the same in Kerala earlier. I genuinely don’t think EMR understands how India operates. There is no ethnic group called Goans. There are Konkanis. They are spread across the various, mostly western states of India along the coast. Some of the nicest people I’ve met. If they had a state for their own, like there was a quiet demand a while ago, much of Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka and Kerala would be subsumed under that. I think the existence of Mumbai, within the ambit of such a Konkan state, would put paid to any such ambition.
The “Goans” EMR refers to are most likely Indo-Portuguese who migrated back to Portugal and Europe after Goa (State of India or Estado da India) “returned” to India. The current Portuguese PM actually looks like me! The passport policy you mention is correct, but it is used by those benefiting much like Mexicans use the US border.
The Portuguese were thrown out of Goa, in the spirit of decolonization pervading the era. It seems, from another post of EMR’s on another thread, that not only is he a terror sympathizer, he is also a pro-colonialist. If he is holidaying in India like he says he is, boy does that make him a favorite among the locals!
Just a few points, yes obviously the Konkan coast extends down the West coast but there are minor differences between districts. Including Konkani dialects.
Goans since the Portuguese left have always thought of themselves as 'Goans', they had a referendum after independence regarding joining with Maharashtra they voted against this and voted for a State of Goa. (Mumbai is Marathi speaking.)
Goans absorbed Portuguese culture to some extent (I mean music, poetry, art etc.) This spread to north Kanara district also.
Also Goan Hindus tend to be stricter. More household shrines etc.
(Don't forget the alcohol!!!!)
Mar 20th 2019, 1:25 pm
#857
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: India and the Wars
Morpeth I am not confused------it is actually 'home'.
2) You say India had only existed for 14 years in 1961 ????----------Morpeth--!!!!!--- ??
India has existed for thousands of years!!!! Yes foreign powers have come and gone. We are talking about reality here not signatures on a piece of paper!
According to you the people living in India during British rule were not Indian!!!!!!!!
You dismiss anything that you yourself do not know as 'folk memory' or 'hearsay'. I was there in the 60s, OH visiting all his life. (restricted visits.)
(Do you describe what your wife tells you as "hearsay"?????)
3) I do not know without research the date when visiting family temples became possible.
With respect you do not know what Goa and surrounding districts were like in the 1960s------I do. You call it anecdotal because you were not there isn't that rather arrogant??
(You say you know what "India" was like in the 1960s-----Morpeth ------information for you every area in India was/is different in practically every way!!!)
5) You again try to equate 'invasions' of hundreds of years ago with 1961. India tried negotiation with Salazar-----hardly a democratic ruler.
Morpeth you used the phrase---- "not been part of Indian governed territory for hundreds of years"-------according to your previous remark India had only existed for 14 years!!!!!!
The point is Morpeth that the actual Goan people WERE part of India.
Finally you ask whether Goa would be better off part of the EU!
EU countries are within close proximity to each other.
In some ways Goan people are part of the EU---I told you that one good point of Portuguese rule is that they allowed those Goa residents in 1961 to keep their Portuguese passports and register their subsequent children at birth.
This is an anomaly that India has allowed.
Do they make use of their passports to migrate to Europe????? -Some do----but most settle in the UK not Portugal.
2) You say India had only existed for 14 years in 1961 ????----------Morpeth--!!!!!--- ??
India has existed for thousands of years!!!! Yes foreign powers have come and gone. We are talking about reality here not signatures on a piece of paper!
According to you the people living in India during British rule were not Indian!!!!!!!!
You dismiss anything that you yourself do not know as 'folk memory' or 'hearsay'. I was there in the 60s, OH visiting all his life. (restricted visits.)
(Do you describe what your wife tells you as "hearsay"?????)
3) I do not know without research the date when visiting family temples became possible.
With respect you do not know what Goa and surrounding districts were like in the 1960s------I do. You call it anecdotal because you were not there isn't that rather arrogant??
(You say you know what "India" was like in the 1960s-----Morpeth ------information for you every area in India was/is different in practically every way!!!)
5) You again try to equate 'invasions' of hundreds of years ago with 1961. India tried negotiation with Salazar-----hardly a democratic ruler.
Morpeth you used the phrase---- "not been part of Indian governed territory for hundreds of years"-------according to your previous remark India had only existed for 14 years!!!!!!
The point is Morpeth that the actual Goan people WERE part of India.
Finally you ask whether Goa would be better off part of the EU!
EU countries are within close proximity to each other.
In some ways Goan people are part of the EU---I told you that one good point of Portuguese rule is that they allowed those Goa residents in 1961 to keep their Portuguese passports and register their subsequent children at birth.
This is an anomaly that India has allowed.
Do they make use of their passports to migrate to Europe????? -Some do----but most settle in the UK not Portugal.
n Because someone lives in a place it doesn’t mean they can’t be confused, as you have shown repeatedly.
2) You say India had only existed for 14 years in 1961????----------Morpeth--!!!!!--- ??
India has existed for thousands of years!!!! Yes foreign powers have come and gone. We are talking about reality here not signatures on a piece of paper!
n As you very well know I was referring to the political entity of India today
n Funny when it suits you there has always been an India, when it doesn’t you emphasize it isn’t all the same
According to you the people living in India during British rule were not Indian!!!!!!!!
n See above
You dismiss anything that you yourself do not know as 'folk memory' or 'hearsay'. I was there in the 60s, OH visiting all his life. (restricted visits.)
(Do you describe what your wife tells you as "hearsay"?????)
n The discussion has repeatedly been on comments you have made for which there is either no evidence or actually contrary evidence.
n I may say yes dear, doesn’t make me believe if I am told the moon made of green cheese.
3) I do not know without research the date when visiting family temples became possible.
n Just curious.
With respect you do not know what Goa and surrounding districts were like in the 1960s------I do. You call it anecdotal because you were not there isn't that rather arrogant??
n You have a pattern of making observations based on hearsay or personal observation, or because of weird logic, doesn’t match the evidence or simply doesn’t make sense.
(You say you know what "India" was like in the 1960s-----Morpeth ------information for you every area in India was/is different in practically every way!!!)
n Your main support for your observations is personal observation, but if others make a comment about personal observation it is automatically wrong. Of course I do not have extensive personal experience of India having lived there as a child and visiting only a few parts.
5) You again try to equate 'invasions' of hundreds of years ago with 1961. India tried negotiation with Salazar-----hardly a democratic ruler.
n Again your Mafia approach that Hitler and Stalin would approve of- India negotiates, doesn’t get its way, so uses force.
n Morpeth you used the phrase---- "not been part of Indian governed territory for hundreds of years"-------according to your previous remark India had only existed for 14 years!!!!!!
The point is Morpeth that the actual Goan people WERE part of India.
n De Jure and De Facto Goa was not part of India. They could be considered Indian (the Majority not all) ethnically or culturally Indian (though you deny there is an Indian culture on multiple occasions. Jut simple English Bipat.
n Finally you ask whether Goa would be better off part of the EU!
EU countries are within close proximity to each other.
- You may wish to check a map of overseas dependencies or even overseas departments of the EU.
In some ways Goan people are part of the EU---I told you that one good point of Portuguese rule is that they allowed those Goa residents in 1961 to keep their Portuguese passports and register their subsequent children at birth.
This is an anomaly that India has allowed.
- Yes you have mentioned before.
Do they make use of their passports to migrate to Europe????? -Some do----but most settle in the UK not Portugal.
- - As I said a what-if question. Would a Goan today prefer the opportunities of being an EU citizen or not we can’t say. As you are an ardent Brexiter who wishes to take away from British citizens the benefits your answer might not be objective,
Mar 20th 2019, 1:29 pm
#858
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: India and the Wars
EMR----you are constantly telling others to read some history----perhaps you could do that. Yes there are a multitude of different groups in India. The Hindu philosophy was the uniting force of the entire subcontinent.
I was discussing Goa with Morpeth. The people of the area known as Goa were NOT a different ethnic group to those in the surrounding part of India. They were the SAME, the SAME families and communities. Yes many are Christians (as well as Muslims)-----the ancestors or the former were forcibly converted but their descendants are genuine Christians a large community who fled Portuguese Goa are in our town. (The British were preferable-----that must please you!
)
Goa was not "annexed" it is and always has been 'part of''-- India. Family and communities spread over both. It was just ruled over by a different foreign power.
As I said to Morpeth ---are you saying that those people in British India were not 'Indian'?? It is just as foolish to say those used as a trade port by Portugal, were not Indian.
(You like reading ancient history -----look up Goud Saraswats. (We are not Goud Saraswats by the way.)
I was discussing Goa with Morpeth. The people of the area known as Goa were NOT a different ethnic group to those in the surrounding part of India. They were the SAME, the SAME families and communities. Yes many are Christians (as well as Muslims)-----the ancestors or the former were forcibly converted but their descendants are genuine Christians a large community who fled Portuguese Goa are in our town. (The British were preferable-----that must please you!
)Goa was not "annexed" it is and always has been 'part of''-- India. Family and communities spread over both. It was just ruled over by a different foreign power.
As I said to Morpeth ---are you saying that those people in British India were not 'Indian'?? It is just as foolish to say those used as a trade port by Portugal, were not Indian.
(You like reading ancient history -----look up Goud Saraswats. (We are not Goud Saraswats by the way.)
But the history of the subcontinent did not end 200p years ago, a lot has happened since then.
It is the history books, the one you like to ignore.
You yourself have admitted that your family are desecened form " interlopers, .
Mar 20th 2019, 1:49 pm
#859
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: India and the Wars
Madam
There’s a whole area along the western coast of India extending from Maharashtra through to Kerala where the Konkani people inhabit - called Konkan; Goa was an enclave carved out of this by the Portuguese who tried and failed doing the same in Kerala earlier. I genuinely don’t think EMR understands how India operates. There is no ethnic group called Goans. There are Konkanis. They are spread across the various, mostly western states of India along the coast. Some of the nicest people I’ve met. If they had a state for their own, like there was a quiet demand a while ago, much of Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka and Kerala would be subsumed under that. I think the existence of Mumbai, within the ambit of such a Konkan state, would put paid to any such ambition.
The “Goans” EMR refers to are most likely Indo-Portuguese who migrated back to Portugal and Europe after Goa (State of India or Estado da India) “returned” to India. The current Portuguese PM actually looks like me! The passport policy you mention is correct, but it is used by those benefiting much like Mexicans use the US border.
The Portuguese were thrown out of Goa, in the spirit of decolonization pervading the era. It seems, from another post of EMR’s on another thread, that not only is he a terror sympathizer, he is also a pro-colonialist. If he is holidaying in India like he says he is, boy does that make him a favorite among the locals!
That explains why there is So much conflict in the world..
They are not the Goans I refer to but the ones Bipat frequently refers to ., who probably themselves as Indian and nothing else., yet you do not.
I do not differentiate between people by descent, caste, or religion ..
Last edited by EMR; Mar 20th 2019 at 1:59 pm.
Mar 20th 2019, 2:15 pm
#860
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: India and the Wars
Sir
Just to point out, open defecation is a widespread problem in places like San Fransisco, CA and Portland, OR. Please, just search for it on the web. What part of India are those in? Why isn’t the US asking for international aid since evidently they aren’t able to provide for these folk? And parts of Camden would rank right up with Dhaka or Delhi as one of the filthiest places on God’s Earth; I lived there so I’ve experienced.
I even disagree with you that corruption is the root cause of the problem. Depends really on how you define corruption. There is too much government interference in the Indian domestic economy, granted. Not very unlike Britain herself. A banker’s private presentation I was privileged to attend startled me with a statistic - that Indians outside India on average earn USD 50,000 per annum. These guys aren’t privileged; many a time the conditions are hostile or barely friendly. There is often institutional bias. Yet they do fine.
The spaceships versus toilets argument is getting old now. What, every homeless guy in the US was taken care of by the time the Apollo missions took man to the moon? Was everyone well-fed in the USSR when the the Sputniks took off? Was there no unemployment in Britain when the first British guy went to space? Isn’t it plain bigotry when you chastise Indians for daring to dream, because space is not for poor brown people? Come on, I thought the British love India. Plus, it bears mention that the space program is not just for show. The weather information, the imaging information, all have helped the more vulnerable professions including agriculture in planning their business better. Why, Indians discovered water on the moon. Eat that.
In return, all I could ask is, what the hell was Britain doing fighting wars in Asia and Africa when the likes of kids portrayed in Charles Dicken’s novels were squirming in the gutters of London and Liverpool?
Would it be more gratifying to your senses, if, like in many African countries, you’d have worn-out, diseased Indian kids and adults run to your helicopters while you throw out biscuits? Calling whitey a God, Indian-style perhaps? Thanks, but no thanks.
India does not have a problem with production today; even with varying weather, Indian outputs have never been higher. It is a distribution problem which will be dealt with. Your irking comes off as a slight more than a show of concern; even after the Tsunami, there was outrage in the western press after India refused aid under PM Manmohan Singh. Every self-respecting Indian agreed with him on that. Result: everything was back up in record time. My own quibble was why the Indian Navy did not take a greater role in overseeing relief efforts in Indonesia - missed opportunity that.
You are right; Indians following the socialist path gave them a true socialist condition. I don’t think Britain is that different. The British have been living off of the legacy of her Empire as well as the injections of the US post-War. When was the last time you had a British-owned car company doing good, for example? Jaguar Land Rover, wink-wink?! Shows just how much Britain’s industries have declined. Britain, like India, was afflicted by Harold Lasky’s socialism. Would you really disagree with me if I told you that the British economy today is London and little else?
As a Republic, clearly India began poor. But, so did Hong Kong. So did Malaysia. So did Taiwan. So did Japan. So did Singapore. For heaven’s sake so did China. They all turned a corner didn’t they? The clear divergence was in the 50s and 60s when Indians adopted a near-autarkic economic model.
I’d call myself middle-class, just about. There are no excuses for India’s poverty. There are reasons, yes. Not your usual nationalist nonsense. Or socialist laments. Indians adopted the socialist model. That was it. Indians do not need foreign aid in that they can cough up resources internally. The likes of the Slumdog director and some Spanish idiot making a slum museum in Mumbai would indulge in gratuitous poverty porn to sate the Western appetite, but Indians are impatient.
My guess is you fundamentally mistake the people for the government. The Indian people are a productive bunch; a look at Britain’s own rich list will give you an idea. The environment laid by the state often decides how people are able to exercise their skills. Given a 60 year history of state over-interference, it will be a while before Indians really take off. Please, don’t make the mistake of just writing off India as corrupt; I have worked in several countries, boy oh boy do they give India a run for its money corruption-wise!
I’d personally think the setting up of certain “freetowns” along India’s coasts would do wonders as far as economic growth is concerned. Growing up in an Indian family, I can tell you that the attitude of the previous generation was very much a resignatory one - this is all we are good for - no doubt a result of the debilitating socialist economy. These days it is very much - why can’t we have that too? Too early to call it materialistic, but it certainly speaks of an eagerness and a self-confidence which is not rooted in resentment. It is a joy to watch.
On fora like these, it is surprisingly the British who across as alrernatively unsure, vindictive and nigh-on negative. Once upon a time, they were the most enlightened of souls.
1. Situations outside India
Bipat brings up situations outside India all time and my response is so? If the discussion is about India’s level and scale of poverty, how does poverty somewhere else negate this?
2. Corruption- I agree with you there are a variety of reasons for India’s economic position, and government involvement in the economy and socialist policies are one of them quite right, Indians around the world have done well in business and the professions. Corruption though is an insidious roadblock to economic development as it distorts proper allocation of resources. India is in the bottom tier of countries on every corruption index I have seen.
3. India defense of prestige project also gets a bit old.” Isnât it plain bigotry when you chastise Indians for daring to dream, because space is not for poor brown people?”. “Why, Indians discovered water on the moon. Eat that”. It is amazing Indians use such emotive language and so defensive if one questions such projects as inappropriate for a county with it level of poverty. I am surprised that like Bipat you are throwing out words like ‘bigotry’.
4.”In return, all I could ask is, what the hell was Britain doing fighting wars in Asia and Africa when the likes of kids portrayed in Charles Dickenâs novels were squirming in the gutters of London and Liverpool?”
--Actually similar questions were asked in Parliament in the 19thand 20th century whether such wars (or often particular colonies) were worth it.
5.”Would it be more gratifying to your senses, if, like in many African countries, youâd have worn-out, diseased Indian kids and adults run to your helicopters while you throw out biscuits? Calling whitey a God, Indian-style perhaps? Thanks, but no thanks.” It is amazing such a response- I argue that India had no business on prestige projects when it has such a level and type of poverty it has and I get a response like this. In fact I am saying quite the opposite- I would rather rich resources be devoted to the poor- which contradicts your polemics.
6.”India does not have a problem with production today, your irking comes off as a slight more than a show of concern; even after the Tsunami, and there was outrage in the western press after India refused aid under PM Manmohan Singh. Every self-respecting Indian agreed with him on that.” If the thread is to be about Indian feelings and nationalism with the type of emotive polemics posted usually by Bipat, rather hard to have rational debate. My quibble was with the Indian politician and others who were opposed to general aid for India’s poor. The example you cite is quite positive that India is able to conduct such an operation efficiently.
7.”You are right; Indians following the socialist path gave them a true socialist condition. I donât think Britain is that different. The British have been living off of the legacy of her Empire as well as the injections of the US post-War. When was the last time you had a British-owned car company doing good, for example? Jaguar Land Rover, wink-wink?! Shows just how much Britainâs industries have declined. Britain, like India, was afflicted by Harold Laskyâs socialism. Would you really disagree with me if I told you that the British economy today is London and little else?”
--Coming for the Northeast I would certainly agree about a London-centric political economy and agree wholeheartedly about the effects of socialist thinking. The UK’s industrial failures are well known, but the UK is still one of the top world economies, with a vibrant financial services sector. As far as living off the legacy of the Empire that is extremely questionable, even when it had an Empire- most British investment and trade was not with the Empire even in the 19th century.
8. “As a Republic, clearly India began poor. But, so did Hong Kong. So did Malaysia. So did Taiwan. So did Japan. So did Singapore. For heavenâs sake so did China. They all turned a corner didnât they? The clear divergence was in the 50s and 60s when Indians adopted a near-autarkic economic model”.
-- I completely agree with you , and a point I have tried to make repeatedly to Bipat.
9. “Iâd call myself middle-class, just about. There are no excuses for Indiaâs poverty. There are reasons, yes. Not your usual nationalist nonsense. Or socialist laments. Indians adopted the socialist model. That was it. Indians do not need foreign aid in that they can cough up resources internally. The likes of the Slumdog director and some Spanish idiot making a slum museum in Mumbai would indulge in gratuitous poverty porn to sate the Western appetite, but Indians are impatient.”
--- Nationalist nonsense? Whom are you referring to? How is questioning ill-supported illogic comments of Bypath about Indian economic and political history ‘nationalist’ nonsense? Clearly India does not have the resources internally t deal with its poverty sues at this time.
10. “My guess is you fundamentally mistake the people for the government. The Indian people are a productive bunch; a look at Britains own rich list will give you an idea. The environment laid by the state often decides how people are able to exercise their skills. Given a 60 year history of state over-interference, it will be a while before Indians really take off. Please, donât make the mistake of just writing off India as corrupt; I have worked in several countries, boy oh boy do they give India a run for its money corruption-wise! “
n Quite agree India isn’t alone in it level of corruption-since the thread was about India that is why it was discussed. I agree abutted state interference which continues today though it has improved. I have made the same point that Indians worldwide have shown business acumen, success in the professions, and there is also reason why freed form the shackles of inane government policies that the country can not only continue its current growth path but even increase it.
For example one industry sector I know well ( ad actually recently did a pre-feasibility of project in India) showed clearly showed how billions of dollars in investment avoid India- and person leading the study a top Indian professional in that sector.
11.”On fora like these, it is surprisingly the British who across as alternatively unsure, vindictive and nigh-on negative. Once upon a time, they were the most enlightened of souls.”
If discussing facts and evidence is vindictive no reason to have discussions about India. I haven’t the slightest vindictive feeling toward India or the subcontinent and considering my business and personal friendships they would laugh to hear that.
My own thoughts if India continues on same path continuing to reduce barriers to foreign investment and trade, and implement ore pro-business policies, it has the potential in my opinion to far overtake China in the long run for many reasons.Your comment about free trade zones and tourist development on the coasts is an excellent example of potential- and the model exists for the success of such initiatives.
Mar 20th 2019, 2:16 pm
#861
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 59
Re: India and the Wars
Odd is it not that as soon as you or Bipat have yiur views challenged your only response is to accuse others of being pro terror or pro empire..
That explains why there is So much conflict in the world..
They are not the Goans I refer to but the ones Bipat frequently refers to ., who probably themselves as Indian and nothing else., yet you do not.
I do not differentiate between people by descent, caste, or religion ..
That explains why there is So much conflict in the world..
They are not the Goans I refer to but the ones Bipat frequently refers to ., who probably themselves as Indian and nothing else., yet you do not.
I do not differentiate between people by descent, caste, or religion ..
You are white British. Or are you not? In India, we have all sorts of differences. You are not really all high and mighty by not differentiating, you are being alternately ignorant or stupid.
Mar 20th 2019, 2:29 pm
#862
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: India and the Wars
I have differences with EMR on various subjects and perhaps he comes across a bit strong at times, but equally there is a history on this thread that leads to frustration- equally being accused of being prejudiced and other comments after a while tends to become annoying- or being told only Indian opinions count (which Bipat has made on several occasions) etc. but I am surprized with your usual rational approach to comments you are referring to someone as stupid as opposed to their comments ( which I am not saying they were or weren't)
.
Mar 20th 2019, 2:34 pm
#863
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
Odd is it not that as soon as you or Bipat have yiur views challenged your only response is to accuse others of being pro terror or pro empire..
That explains why there is So much conflict in the world..
They are not the Goans I refer to but the ones Bipat frequently refers to ., who probably themselves as Indian and nothing else., yet you do not.
I do not differentiate between people by descent, caste, or religion ..
That explains why there is So much conflict in the world..
They are not the Goans I refer to but the ones Bipat frequently refers to ., who probably themselves as Indian and nothing else., yet you do not.
I do not differentiate between people by descent, caste, or religion ..
Goans see themselves as Saraswats etc./Goans/Indians. They also differentiate between religions it is not a negative thing just a description.
Norfolk people differentiate themselves from Suffolk people they are all British!!!
Practically every Goan taxi driver has on the dashboard of their taxi a religious symbol. Passengers therefore immediately know their religion-----what does it matter ---it is just one bit of information.
(Well EMR ---you certainly fill your posts with pro-British and Portuguese Empire remarks--- regarding India.)
Mar 20th 2019, 2:57 pm
#864
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
I do appreciate your post which has many points I agree with completely.
2. 1) Corruption- I agree with you there are a variety of reasons for India’s economic position, and government involvement in the economy and socialist policies are one of them quite right, Indians around the world have done well in business and the professions. Corruption though is an insidious roadblock to economic development as it distorts proper allocation of resources. India is in the bottom tier of countries on every corruption index I have seen.
2) My own thoughts if India continues on same path continuing to reduce barriers to foreign investment and trade, and implement ore pro-business policies, it has the potential in my opinion to far overtake China in the long run for many reasons.Your comment about free trade zones and tourist development on the coasts is an excellent example of potential- and the model exists for the success of such initiatives.
2. 1) Corruption- I agree with you there are a variety of reasons for India’s economic position, and government involvement in the economy and socialist policies are one of them quite right, Indians around the world have done well in business and the professions. Corruption though is an insidious roadblock to economic development as it distorts proper allocation of resources. India is in the bottom tier of countries on every corruption index I have seen.
2) My own thoughts if India continues on same path continuing to reduce barriers to foreign investment and trade, and implement ore pro-business policies, it has the potential in my opinion to far overtake China in the long run for many reasons.Your comment about free trade zones and tourist development on the coasts is an excellent example of potential- and the model exists for the success of such initiatives.
Perhaps hopefully to end this debate with you Morpeth.
I have edited your cumbersome post to two points to agree on.
1) Corruption---- was 'top down' with the Congress Governments, with their nepotism and family money making. (I would leave out Manmohan Singh, known as a good economist---but used as a puppet PM to keep the "seat warm for Rahul"----his own words.
The present Government has made a point to end this----demonetisation was for that. It will not happen over night or within years.
My remark above if you read it, to M.K. about good Legal help----Lawyers in our town always get something wrong that needs re-doing etc. at a 'new price'.
Even our desperately poor neighbour three times sent back to get her gas ration book signed when told they couldn't read it. OH and some 'folding green' as our son calls it, got it signed.
(In another town even a 'death' certificate was delayed until extra payment.) This happens everywhere all the time!
Before you say it doesn't count because my personal knowledge is meaningless---ask all those friends you have.
As I said this is top down-----'I paid him so you pay me.'
2) I have previously put links where economists have predicted India will overtake China
Mar 20th 2019, 3:02 pm
#865
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 59
Re: India and the Wars
I do appreciate your post which has many points I agree with completely.
1. Situations outside India
Bipat brings up situations outside India all time and my response is so? If the discussion is about India’s level and scale of poverty, how does poverty somewhere else negate this?
2. Corruption- I agree with you there are a variety of reasons for India’s economic position, and government involvement in the economy and socialist policies are one of them quite right, Indians around the world have done well in business and the professions. Corruption though is an insidious roadblock to economic development as it distorts proper allocation of resources. India is in the bottom tier of countries on every corruption index I have seen.
3. India defense of prestige project also gets a bit old.” Isnât it plain bigotry when you chastise Indians for daring to dream, because space is not for poor brown people?”. “Why, Indians discovered water on the moon. Eat that”. It is amazing Indians use such emotive language and so defensive if one questions such projects as inappropriate for a county with it level of poverty. I am surprised that like Bipat you are throwing out words like ‘bigotry’.
4.”In return, all I could ask is, what the hell was Britain doing fighting wars in Asia and Africa when the likes of kids portrayed in Charles Dickenâs novels were squirming in the gutters of London and Liverpool?”
--Actually similar questions were asked in Parliament in the 19thand 20th century whether such wars (or often particular colonies) were worth it.
5.”Would it be more gratifying to your senses, if, like in many African countries, youâd have worn-out, diseased Indian kids and adults run to your helicopters while you throw out biscuits? Calling whitey a God, Indian-style perhaps? Thanks, but no thanks.” It is amazing such a response- I argue that India had no business on prestige projects when it has such a level and type of poverty it has and I get a response like this. In fact I am saying quite the opposite- I would rather rich resources be devoted to the poor- which contradicts your polemics.
6.”India does not have a problem with production today, your irking comes off as a slight more than a show of concern; even after the Tsunami, and there was outrage in the western press after India refused aid under PM Manmohan Singh. Every self-respecting Indian agreed with him on that.” If the thread is to be about Indian feelings and nationalism with the type of emotive polemics posted usually by Bipat, rather hard to have rational debate. My quibble was with the Indian politician and others who were opposed to general aid for India’s poor. The example you cite is quite positive that India is able to conduct such an operation efficiently.
7.”You are right; Indians following the socialist path gave them a true socialist condition. I donât think Britain is that different. The British have been living off of the legacy of her Empire as well as the injections of the US post-War. When was the last time you had a British-owned car company doing good, for example? Jaguar Land Rover, wink-wink?! Shows just how much Britainâs industries have declined. Britain, like India, was afflicted by Harold Laskyâs socialism. Would you really disagree with me if I told you that the British economy today is London and little else?”
--Coming for the Northeast I would certainly agree about a London-centric political economy and agree wholeheartedly about the effects of socialist thinking. The UK’s industrial failures are well known, but the UK is still one of the top world economies, with a vibrant financial services sector. As far as living off the legacy of the Empire that is extremely questionable, even when it had an Empire- most British investment and trade was not with the Empire even in the 19th century.
8. “As a Republic, clearly India began poor. But, so did Hong Kong. So did Malaysia. So did Taiwan. So did Japan. So did Singapore. For heavenâs sake so did China. They all turned a corner didnât they? The clear divergence was in the 50s and 60s when Indians adopted a near-autarkic economic model”.
-- I completely agree with you , and a point I have tried to make repeatedly to Bipat.
9. “Iâd call myself middle-class, just about. There are no excuses for Indiaâs poverty. There are reasons, yes. Not your usual nationalist nonsense. Or socialist laments. Indians adopted the socialist model. That was it. Indians do not need foreign aid in that they can cough up resources internally. The likes of the Slumdog director and some Spanish idiot making a slum museum in Mumbai would indulge in gratuitous poverty porn to sate the Western appetite, but Indians are impatient.”
--- Nationalist nonsense? Whom are you referring to? How is questioning ill-supported illogic comments of Bypath about Indian economic and political history ‘nationalist’ nonsense? Clearly India does not have the resources internally t deal with its poverty sues at this time.
10. “My guess is you fundamentally mistake the people for the government. The Indian people are a productive bunch; a look at Britains own rich list will give you an idea. The environment laid by the state often decides how people are able to exercise their skills. Given a 60 year history of state over-interference, it will be a while before Indians really take off. Please, donât make the mistake of just writing off India as corrupt; I have worked in several countries, boy oh boy do they give India a run for its money corruption-wise! “
n Quite agree India isn’t alone in it level of corruption-since the thread was about India that is why it was discussed. I agree abutted state interference which continues today though it has improved. I have made the same point that Indians worldwide have shown business acumen, success in the professions, and there is also reason why freed form the shackles of inane government policies that the country can not only continue its current growth path but even increase it.
For example one industry sector I know well ( ad actually recently did a pre-feasibility of project in India) showed clearly showed how billions of dollars in investment avoid India- and person leading the study a top Indian professional in that sector.
11.”On fora like these, it is surprisingly the British who across as alternatively unsure, vindictive and nigh-on negative. Once upon a time, they were the most enlightened of souls.”
If discussing facts and evidence is vindictive no reason to have discussions about India. I haven’t the slightest vindictive feeling toward India or the subcontinent and considering my business and personal friendships they would laugh to hear that.
My own thoughts if India continues on same path continuing to reduce barriers to foreign investment and trade, and implement ore pro-business policies, it has the potential in my opinion to far overtake China in the long run for many reasons.Your comment about free trade zones and tourist development on the coasts is an excellent example of potential- and the model exists for the success of such initiatives.
1. Situations outside India
Bipat brings up situations outside India all time and my response is so? If the discussion is about India’s level and scale of poverty, how does poverty somewhere else negate this?
2. Corruption- I agree with you there are a variety of reasons for India’s economic position, and government involvement in the economy and socialist policies are one of them quite right, Indians around the world have done well in business and the professions. Corruption though is an insidious roadblock to economic development as it distorts proper allocation of resources. India is in the bottom tier of countries on every corruption index I have seen.
3. India defense of prestige project also gets a bit old.” Isnât it plain bigotry when you chastise Indians for daring to dream, because space is not for poor brown people?”. “Why, Indians discovered water on the moon. Eat that”. It is amazing Indians use such emotive language and so defensive if one questions such projects as inappropriate for a county with it level of poverty. I am surprised that like Bipat you are throwing out words like ‘bigotry’.
4.”In return, all I could ask is, what the hell was Britain doing fighting wars in Asia and Africa when the likes of kids portrayed in Charles Dickenâs novels were squirming in the gutters of London and Liverpool?”
--Actually similar questions were asked in Parliament in the 19thand 20th century whether such wars (or often particular colonies) were worth it.
5.”Would it be more gratifying to your senses, if, like in many African countries, youâd have worn-out, diseased Indian kids and adults run to your helicopters while you throw out biscuits? Calling whitey a God, Indian-style perhaps? Thanks, but no thanks.” It is amazing such a response- I argue that India had no business on prestige projects when it has such a level and type of poverty it has and I get a response like this. In fact I am saying quite the opposite- I would rather rich resources be devoted to the poor- which contradicts your polemics.
6.”India does not have a problem with production today, your irking comes off as a slight more than a show of concern; even after the Tsunami, and there was outrage in the western press after India refused aid under PM Manmohan Singh. Every self-respecting Indian agreed with him on that.” If the thread is to be about Indian feelings and nationalism with the type of emotive polemics posted usually by Bipat, rather hard to have rational debate. My quibble was with the Indian politician and others who were opposed to general aid for India’s poor. The example you cite is quite positive that India is able to conduct such an operation efficiently.
7.”You are right; Indians following the socialist path gave them a true socialist condition. I donât think Britain is that different. The British have been living off of the legacy of her Empire as well as the injections of the US post-War. When was the last time you had a British-owned car company doing good, for example? Jaguar Land Rover, wink-wink?! Shows just how much Britainâs industries have declined. Britain, like India, was afflicted by Harold Laskyâs socialism. Would you really disagree with me if I told you that the British economy today is London and little else?”
--Coming for the Northeast I would certainly agree about a London-centric political economy and agree wholeheartedly about the effects of socialist thinking. The UK’s industrial failures are well known, but the UK is still one of the top world economies, with a vibrant financial services sector. As far as living off the legacy of the Empire that is extremely questionable, even when it had an Empire- most British investment and trade was not with the Empire even in the 19th century.
8. “As a Republic, clearly India began poor. But, so did Hong Kong. So did Malaysia. So did Taiwan. So did Japan. So did Singapore. For heavenâs sake so did China. They all turned a corner didnât they? The clear divergence was in the 50s and 60s when Indians adopted a near-autarkic economic model”.
-- I completely agree with you , and a point I have tried to make repeatedly to Bipat.
9. “Iâd call myself middle-class, just about. There are no excuses for Indiaâs poverty. There are reasons, yes. Not your usual nationalist nonsense. Or socialist laments. Indians adopted the socialist model. That was it. Indians do not need foreign aid in that they can cough up resources internally. The likes of the Slumdog director and some Spanish idiot making a slum museum in Mumbai would indulge in gratuitous poverty porn to sate the Western appetite, but Indians are impatient.”
--- Nationalist nonsense? Whom are you referring to? How is questioning ill-supported illogic comments of Bypath about Indian economic and political history ‘nationalist’ nonsense? Clearly India does not have the resources internally t deal with its poverty sues at this time.
10. “My guess is you fundamentally mistake the people for the government. The Indian people are a productive bunch; a look at Britains own rich list will give you an idea. The environment laid by the state often decides how people are able to exercise their skills. Given a 60 year history of state over-interference, it will be a while before Indians really take off. Please, donât make the mistake of just writing off India as corrupt; I have worked in several countries, boy oh boy do they give India a run for its money corruption-wise! “
n Quite agree India isn’t alone in it level of corruption-since the thread was about India that is why it was discussed. I agree abutted state interference which continues today though it has improved. I have made the same point that Indians worldwide have shown business acumen, success in the professions, and there is also reason why freed form the shackles of inane government policies that the country can not only continue its current growth path but even increase it.
For example one industry sector I know well ( ad actually recently did a pre-feasibility of project in India) showed clearly showed how billions of dollars in investment avoid India- and person leading the study a top Indian professional in that sector.
11.”On fora like these, it is surprisingly the British who across as alternatively unsure, vindictive and nigh-on negative. Once upon a time, they were the most enlightened of souls.”
If discussing facts and evidence is vindictive no reason to have discussions about India. I haven’t the slightest vindictive feeling toward India or the subcontinent and considering my business and personal friendships they would laugh to hear that.
My own thoughts if India continues on same path continuing to reduce barriers to foreign investment and trade, and implement ore pro-business policies, it has the potential in my opinion to far overtake China in the long run for many reasons.Your comment about free trade zones and tourist development on the coasts is an excellent example of potential- and the model exists for the success of such initiatives.
Many Indians are poor. So?
I’d argue on the lines of Milton Friedman that you’d always have a segment of society that is materially less well-off than others; given sufficient time and space, they will work their way out of it. To arrest the development of the country in the highest fields before every single Indian is above the poverty line is a recipe for a brain drain. The USD 2 billion going into space research a year is a tiny, tiny percentage (EMR) of the annual budget. I guess I’ll never convince a pessimist. It is the same thinking which would chafe where Indians to come up with a luxury car to rival Ferrari.
I am in two minds about corruption. One tends to give up without further inquiry, which is defeatist. A sense has crept in, no doubt a legacy of the past, that government needs to stick its fingers into everything, that Indians are somehow children in the face of the evil bad world. Best practices from around the world are being seen, by Indian civilians mostly, and relayed back home. For instance, buying and dealing in property in the US is a breeze compared to India. Only now are Indians even talking about REITs and such. It’s a natural part of growing up. But, all told, they do have a point about buccaneer capitalism; if there was a mechanism to secure their obligations in India, maybe the suspicion with which foreign investment is seen would be mitigated. In my view, India is among the most sophisticated modern polities in the world, with legislation to match. You must perhaps compare the experience of an Indian businessmen trying to enter the European market to see how it compares with your experience in India. Isn’t France a nightmare?
I think Indians talk a lot about corruption without understanding what causes it. “The whole system is messed up” is a convenient scapegoat and a conversation stopper. Lower taxes, fee-based government services, clarity in business processes and law, easy convertibility of currency and repatriation of profits, all are ideas doing the rounds. But the incentives surrounding the current system of high taxes and benefits are so strong, it will take a while to dismantle that. Which is why, on an experimental basis, tax-free, 100% foreign access towns could be an idea. There is no way a Bihar can be expected to be open like a Tamil Nadu at the same time.
As for aid, it is precious little making for grandstanding. I have seen British TV where they debate on and on about aid but please, we don’t want it. Indians can afford to divert resources to their own aid. As such I am not fully on with the NGO industry; their actions in India should ideally be subsumed under some government department.
You refer China to which I’d like to respond. I don’t think the Chinese model of development is actually stable or sustainable, given its Communist dictatorship and lack of civil liberties. Also, given the opacity of information from there, I’d take the information with a pinch of salt. Certainly they have improved, but there does seem to be a hollow core. The BRI to my mind is little more than a CCP effort to siphon away funds from China to overseas. The Indian story will take a while but offer everyone a better opportunity to be better off. It is to a degree a fear of losing her sovereignty which keeps India from opening up faster than she could. Maybe a lack of self-confidence. Examples like Union Carbide do little to dent the opinion. It is, in my view, up to the foreign investors partially to convince Indian authorities of their good intentions. This is a developing country, after all. The US is a lodestar in all this. Great currency, great and open (relatively) economy, strong institutions, great environment for entrepreneurs and business.
Mar 20th 2019, 3:07 pm
#866
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
It is interesting that only you and Bipat bring up race of this thread.
I have differences with EMR on various subjects and perhaps he comes across a bit strong at times, but equally there is a history on this thread that leads to frustration- equally being accused of being prejudiced and other comments after a while tends to become annoying- or being told only Indian opinions count (which Bipat has made on several occasions) etc. but I am surprized with your usual rational approach to comments you are referring to someone as stupid as opposed to their comments ( which I am not saying they were or weren't)
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I have differences with EMR on various subjects and perhaps he comes across a bit strong at times, but equally there is a history on this thread that leads to frustration- equally being accused of being prejudiced and other comments after a while tends to become annoying- or being told only Indian opinions count (which Bipat has made on several occasions) etc. but I am surprized with your usual rational approach to comments you are referring to someone as stupid as opposed to their comments ( which I am not saying they were or weren't)
.
I tried anyway I could, in the face of your bizarre notion that Goans of India were Portuguese, to show you that they were NOT by pointing out that their 'looks' were different, so even you ought to be able to distinguish them.
Mar 20th 2019, 3:40 pm
#867
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: India and the Wars
I am British that's it.
Mar 20th 2019, 3:51 pm
#868
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
EMR---just think. You are wandering round a town market in Chennai or Lagos. How will any passer by, looking at you, know without asking that you are not Indian or Nigerian origin?????
Mar 20th 2019, 6:10 pm
#869
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: India and the Wars
Your double standards again Bipat..
Mar 20th 2019, 6:29 pm
#870
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,711
Re: India and the Wars
I would say-----light when winter in the UK----mid--- when has some Indian sun on his face!!
Children and grandchildren all different shades. (They are all beautiful and handsome---my bias!!
) Perhaps to quote yourself EMR-----you should get out more and appreciate people's differences!