India and the Wars

Old Mar 21st 2019, 10:45 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Ums.

We seems to be having a bit of a problemo with quoting in here. Can we all just be a bit more mindful with that as it makes it all very hard to read and know who says what.

If you wish to quote and comment, you can highlight the text to quote and then use the " icon to have that surrounded as a quote.

Whilst I am sitting down with a cup of morning tea, may I also request that the somewhat personal jibes and insults I have been seeing stop. Debate the topic . Do not attack the person.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 7:52 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
I think M.K is using the word "bum" differently than you as a British person would use it.
He has a point about 'fake concern', the concern of a foreigner who sees "the poor", as a homogenous mass of 'clones'.
They are individuals. From the majority desperately underprivileged to those in all 'shades' of difference up to the those who are criminals. Even among the latter some doing what they have to do to survive and those who just exploit others in poverty.
The men as opposed to the women and children.

I could give you so many examples of cities/rural differences but that would be inadmissible personal knowledge.
Hi Bipat, it seems quite obvious to me this and your continued defensive comments about the scale and type of poverty in India are quite indicative of the attitude of middle and upper class Indians towards the poor- though his attitude reminds me of not a few conservative Americans. Note he says the poor 'while away their time'. However if in Indian English the word has a different connotation then of course I misunderstood his use of the word. Just for curiosity I will ask a few Indians this week how the word 'bum' is understood, and whether a majority of the poor just 'while away their time' with support from benefits- this seems a more apt description of many who are poor in the UK than India.

No one is considering the poor of India as 'clones' as with the poor anywhere else.

Personal observation is fine, lack of logic or observations clearly in contradiction to all evidence isn't helpful.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:06 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by BEVS
Ums.

We seems to be having a bit of a problemo with quoting in here. Can we all just be a bit more mindful with that as it makes it all very hard to read and know who says what.

If you wish to quote and comment, you can highlight the text to quote and then use the " icon to have that surrounded as a quote.

Whilst I am sitting down with a cup of morning tea, may I also request that the somewhat personal jibes and insults I have been seeing stop. Debate the topic . Do not attack the person.
Yes I have had a problem with quoting, thanks for the tip.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 9:57 pm
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Originally Posted by morpeth

Hi Bipat, it seems quite obvious to me this and your continued defensive comments about the scale and type of poverty in India are quite indicative of the attitude of middle and upper class Indians towards the poor- though his attitude reminds me of not a few conservative Americans. Note he says the poor 'while away their time'. However if in Indian English the word has a different connotation then of course I misunderstood his use of the word. Just for curiosity I will ask a few Indians this week how the word 'bum' is understood, and whether a majority of the poor just 'while away their time' with support from benefits- this seems a more apt description of many who are poor in the UK than India.

No one is considering the poor of India as 'clones' as with the poor anywhere else.

Personal observation is fine, lack of logic or observations clearly in contradiction to all evidence isn't helpful.
Morpeth, I do not know how many times I have to tell you, I am not defensive about the scale and 'type' of poverty.
You keep repeating the same things over and over and I have to reply with the same answer.
We live daily with the poor we see and do what we can. It is with us all the time. You are not there.
Some we know for most of their lives. Relatives who have worked in Government hospitals in poorest areas. Do you have any idea what it is like in a poor district Mumbai malaria hospital?
No point in describing individual experiences to you as you refuse to accept my information.
You are just pontificating from a distance.

I am trying to convince you they are not all the SAME. There are so many different reasons for the poverty of different peoples. Different degrees of poverty.
Not an excuse, reasons.

The other poster I think was wrong in saying that "the majority just while away their time".
However for the city poor, if no job or on the street, what can they do? The women probably are more able to have some work/activity.
Many if theyq had the means would go back to the villages they left with the idea of better life.

As I said the Mumbai major slum is known to harbour a black economy and crime, the women and children major sufferers.
Where do you think all that electric wiring is connected to and the TVs?? Legal??
(I have made the point before that the Government should make far more use of TV for education purposes).
The local council rehoused some in appartments--some sold the flats and moved back to the slum.

Not your 'obsession' about Indian english', I was just reminding you that the word 'bum' can be used as 'bad'---as in 'bum' idea.
Perhaps you can ask the OP what he meant.

Your idea of curing all by doing away with scientific research etc.
Don't you think it encourages the young poor who need ambition to go to college and move up in life??

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:07 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 11:42 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat

Morpeth, I do not know how many times I have to tell you, I am not defensive about the scale and 'type' of poverty.
You keep repeating the same things over and over and I have to reply with the same answer.
We live daily with the poor we see and do what we can. It is with us all the time. You are not there.
Some we know for most of their lives. Relatives who have worked in Government hospitals in poorest areas. Do you have any idea what it is like in a poor district Mumbai malaria hospital?
No point in describing individual experiences to you as you refuse to accept my information.
You are just pontificating from a distance.

I am trying to convince you they are not all the SAME. There are so many different reasons for the poverty of different peoples. Different degrees of poverty.
Not an excuse, reasons.

The other poster I think was wrong in saying that "the majority just while away their time".
However for the city poor, if no job or on the street, what can they do? The women probably are more able to have some work/activity.
Many if theyq had the means would go back to the villages they left with the idea of better life.

As I said the Mumbai major slum is known to harbour a black economy and crime, the women and children major sufferers.
Where do you think all that electric wiring is connected to and the TVs?? Legal??
(I have made the point before that the Government should make far more use of TV for education purposes).
The local council rehoused some in appartments--some sold the flats and moved back to the slum.

Not your 'obsession' about Indian english', I was just reminding you that the word 'bum' can be used as 'bad'---as in 'bum' idea.
Perhaps you can ask the OP what he meant.

Your idea of curing all by doing away with scientific research etc.
Don't you think it encourages the young poor who need ambition to go to college and move up in life??
​​​​​​.Bipat , in my opinion you exhibit the same defensive qualifications of poverty in India the other poster and many Indians I have encountered over the years-.This opinion is formed y (a) when actual evidence ,reports, etc. presented on the scale and depth of poverty you deny the accuracy or even thrust from such reports whether Indian or foreign (b) then seek to blame everyone , whether the British or the Congress party- when the discussion originally based on where India is at today ( c) and for some odd reason bring up not all the poor are clones, which would apply anywhere and I am not sure addresses the key point, That strikes me as defensive, just the other poster calling poor people bums who while away the time- I would assume an impartial reader would come to the same opinion about defensiveness. Admittedly anecdotal, I was very struck by the Indian family locally returning to visit India and the teenage children – who live in a poor English town- said they were appalled at the level of poverty they encountered in India. The parents emphasized the amazing growth the economy and living standards, but also how dire poverty remains widespread. One family’s observations don’t prove anything- but strikes me I might not be too far off in my opinion. In any case perhaps we simply have a different definition of defensive.

2. You describe all sorts of reasons for the level and scale of poverty, if you hadn’t started by trying to deny evidence perhaps one would have a different impression of your comments. I know you mean well, and do a good job at promoting a sanitized image of India, but the primary issue of the size and potential of the Indian market waste original source I believe of this particular discussion.

3. I was just being polite granting perhaps the word ‘bum” means something else there.



4. There are reasonable debates about the expenditures of a space program vs alternate uses for the funds that should be absent emotive nationalist polemics. One can have the same debate about other space programs. A country that can’t provide sufficient toilets or reasonable sanitation to tens and tens of millions of people who have to defecate in the open in my opinion has no business having a space program absent overwhelming proof the scientific advance of its particular program provides for better economic growth or scientific advances of such importance to make up for the negatives of such expenditures. The overall impression I receive it is a feel-good enterprise for the upper and middle classes nationalist sentiments. The other poster made the excellent point wasteful prestige project exist everywhere, and perhaps emotionally Indians need such projects for the Indian pride to make up for defensiveness or other reasons- I would think the richness of the ancient culture of India, the success of Indians worldwide, and the quite remarkable recent growth rates would be enough for a reduction of emotive nationalism. I read an article this morning by an MP who claims 5,000 people a night sleep rough in the UK, quite outrageous as well in my opinion, perhaps even worse in one of the top world economies- but this thread was about India.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:07 am.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 12:39 am
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Originally Posted by morpeth

1) ​​​​​​.Bipat , in my opinion you exhibit the same defensive qualifications of poverty in India the other poster and many Indians I have encountered over the years-.This opinion is formed y (a) when actual evidence ,reports, etc. presented on the scale and depth of poverty you deny the accuracy or even thrust from such reports whether Indian or foreign (b) then seek to blame everyone , whether the British or the Congress party- when the discussion originally based on where India is at today ( c) and for some odd reason bring up not all the poor are clones, which would apply anywhere and I am not sure addresses the key point, That strikes me as defensive, just the other poster calling poor people bums who while away the time- I would assume an impartial reader would come to the same opinion about defensiveness. Admittedly anecdotal, I was very struck by the Indian family locally returning to visit India and the teenage children – who live in a poor English town- said they were appalled at the level of poverty they encountered in India. The parents emphasized the amazing growth the economy and living standards, but also how dire poverty remains widespread. One family’s observations don’t prove anything- but strikes me I might not be too far off in my opinion. In any case perhaps we simply have a different definition of defensive.

2. You describe all sorts of reasons for the level and scale of poverty, if you hadn’t started by trying to deny evidence perhaps one would have a different impression of your comments. I know you mean well, and do a good job at promoting a sanitized image of India, but the primary issue of the size and potential of the Indian market waste original source I believe of this particular discussion.

3. I was just being polite granting perhaps the word ‘bum” means something else there.



4. There are reasonable debates about the expenditures of a space program vs alternate uses for the funds that should be absent emotive nationalist polemics. One can have the same debate about other space programs. A country that can’t provide sufficient toilets or reasonable sanitation to tens and tens of millions of people who have to defecate in the open in my opinion has no business having a space program absent overwhelming proof the scientific advance of its particular program provides for better economic growth or scientific advances of such importance to make up for the negatives of such expenditures. The overall impression I receive it is a feel-good enterprise for the upper and middle classes nationalist sentiments. The other poster made the excellent point wasteful prestige project exist everywhere, and perhaps emotionally Indians need such projects for the Indian pride to make up for defensiveness or other reasons- I would think the richness of the ancient culture of India, the success of Indians worldwide, and the quite remarkable recent growth rates would be enough for a reduction of emotive nationalism. I read an article this morning by an MP who claims 5,000 people a night sleep rough in the UK, quite outrageous as well in my opinion, perhaps even worse in one of the top world economies- but this thread was about India.
1) Morpeth ---how to get through to you? I KNOW the scale and depth of poverty.
I bl***y* see it every day when there. We do our best to help people 'every' day.

That does not mean agreeing with every report and statistic which sometimes show just broad views without important detail.
How to get through to you that there are different reasons for poverty. Differences within families.
You again go on about defecation in the open it is not so straightforward as you insist--Many have to, because they have no home, some prefer to, others such as tribal and some in some very rural areas in a few States have more traditional habits. They all add to statistics.

Think about the new health scheme; to get it you have to sign up at a bank. (Accounts can be done without a deposit.) Explain how street people can do this? Explain how those villagers remote from a bank can do this.
These difficulties apply sometimes for other benefits also.
Those in contact with the more literate are more able can get help.
You forget the poverty of the very elderly abandoned by their families.
The village young expecting to get jobs when they go to big cities. No money to go back home when they fail.
The slum dwellers not allowing their children to go to schools.
Other children too ashamed of their clothes to go. Morpeth I am crying --I know these people.

I am trying to show that there are many different reasons and degrees of poverty, and many different solutions are needed. Not abandoning scientific research which aids ambition.

* Apologies BEVS for the language. Also unable to highlight parts of the post as on a train using a tablet!

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:07 am.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 1:05 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

1) Morpeth ---how to get through to you? I KNOW the scale and depth of poverty.
I bl***y* see it every day when there. We do our best to help people 'every' day.

That does not mean agreeing with every report and statistic which sometimes show just broad views without important detail.
How to get through to you that there are different reasons for poverty. Differences within families.
You again go on about defecation in the open it is not so straightforward as you insist--Many have to, because they have no home, some prefer to, others such as tribal and some in some very rural areas in a few States have more traditional habits. They all add to statistics.

Think about the new health scheme; to get it you have to sign up at a bank. (Accounts can be done without a deposit.) Explain how street people can do this? Explain how those villagers remote from a bank can do this.
These difficulties apply sometimes for other benefits also.
Those in contact with the more literate are more able can get help.
You forget the poverty of the very elderly abandoned by their families.
The village young expecting to get jobs when they go to big cities. No money to go back home when they fail.
The slum dwellers not allowing their children to go to schools.
Other children too ashamed of their clothes to go. Morpeth I am crying --I know these people.

I am trying to show that there are many different reasons and degrees of poverty, and many different solutions are needed. Not abandoning scientific research which aids ambition.

* Apologies BEVS for the language. Also unable to highlight parts of the post as on a train using a tablet!

India's space program $ 1.4 billion dollars cost to put a man in space...
Nothing like a nation getting its priorities in order.
Just like the UK and it's vanity aircraft carriers.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:07 am.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 4:41 am
  #893  
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[QUOTE=Bipat;12658285][QUOTE=morpeth;12658257]
Originally Posted by Bipat

1) Morpeth ---how to get through to you? I KNOW the scale and depth of poverty.
I bl***y* see it every day when there. We do our best to help people 'every' day.

That does not mean agreeing with every report and statistic which sometimes show just broad views without important detail.
How to get through to you that there are different reasons for poverty. Differences within families.
You again go on about defecation in the open it is not so straightforward as you insist--Many have to, because they have no home, some prefer to, others such as tribal and some in some very rural areas in a few States have more traditional habits. They all add to statistics.

Think about the new health scheme; to get it you have to sign up at a bank. (Accounts can be done without a deposit.) Explain how street people can do this? Explain how those villagers remote from a bank can do this.
These difficulties apply sometimes for other benefits also.
Those in contact with the more literate are more able can get help.
You forget the poverty of the very elderly abandoned by their families.
The village young expecting to get jobs when they go to big cities. No money to go back home when they fail.
The slum dwellers not allowing their children to go to schools.
Other children too ashamed of their clothes to go. Morpeth I am crying --I know these people.

I am trying to show that there are many different reasons and degrees of poverty, and many different solutions are needed. Not abandoning scientific research which aids ambition.

* Apologies BEVS for the language. Also unable to highlight parts of the post as on a train using a tablet!
This illustrates the difficulty in the discussions which is frustrating- you keep posting information that is irrelevant to the topic,. We all know, as in most countries there will be regional differences, and differences in particular individuals why they are poor or not. Nor was I suggesting any particular solutions though the main one would be for India to open up its economy further. Nor do I deny ( in fact have actually made the same point) that habits and customs can result in practices that we in the West find objectionable.

As far as evidence and statistics there is abundant evidence in past posts that you reject any and all evidence form any source if contradicts the image of India you like to portray- on issue after issue this was discussed.

If there is any serious study on the costs of the space program and benefits that it has given to the economy in excess of what alternate uses could provide to economic growth and to help the poor by all means I would be interested in reading. Short of that simply in a country as poor as India a space program in my opinion is an indulgence to make middle and upper class Indian nationalists feel better. World Bank and IMF economists over the years have pointed out throughout the Third World this type of project is often adopted rarely for economic reasons. You even previously posted within India itself there have been some who brought up the same issues- so hardly is this an anti-Indian diatribe. Would using the same money t support lending to start-ups or village based businesses deliver more ?

There is also the same discussion periodically in more advanced countries about space programs- but since the scale and depth of poverty much lower to a certain agree less of an issue.

The defense of the space program in a country with such poverty I simply find symptomatic of emotional pride issues,
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Old Mar 27th 2019, 6:00 am
  #894  
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[QUOTE=morpeth;12657861][QUOTE=madathil.krishnanunni;12657486]
Originally Posted by morpeth

You seem to be constructing a straw man that doesn’t exist ! I would be the last person someone would classify as a socialist !

“So you’d like those thousands of engineers grafting their way through college to careers to leave all of that and grow cabbage. OK. Good luck selling that lemon.”

The issue as you very well know is if resources are to be in the hands of the government how best to allocate. Whether there may be some potential benefits for the program vs a better allocation of funds is a reasonable issue that can be debated- and is applicable not only to India for prestige type projects.

“By that logic, you’d also object to any Indian buying any luxury car until every person BPL was raised to a minimum income. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is Grade-A socialism which we’ve suffered for 60 years.”

Not at all- I was discussing government funds being used for prestige projects, or projects that had less bang for the buck.

“I think you draw a vague connection between socialism, corruption and the space program.”

I haven’t a clue how you would come to such a conclusion

“If anything, the space program is one of the few places without leakages and corruption, thank heavens, because most politicians don’t get what goes on there!”

---I doubt any government procurement project in India doesn't have some level of corruption involved whether in the Space program or elsewhere. In fact some the most high-profile corruption cases in Asia and Latin America have been related to areas of higher technological complexity.
.
“If you don’t give opportunities to people, and people while away time as a result, a bum is a bum regardless of geographic location.”

Your pejorative use of the word bum to describe millions of India’s poor speaks volumes on how you view poor people. They “while away their time”, you can’t be serious. In the UK maybe, but in India ?

“Please. Stop with this fake concern. It is nauseating.”

---I quite agree with you promoting opportunities better than welfare. As far as nauseating it more so the lack of empathy for those who you call bums that is nauseating I would think. You don’t know me so why would you say I have a fake concern?. Funny I argue with Bipat why socialist type restrictions on investments and business are counter -productive, now being described as a socialist because I question the Indian government allocating resources to what I consider prestige projects.

Corruption thrives in an environment where trust levels are low. Socialist states are such environments. If you had a million pounds, you’d do far more to help Indians by investing in and running a business than by giving it to Oxfam. You may get a good return here on earth too!

--I quite agree.
Sir

The best remedy for government to stop spending on fanciful projects would be to stop paying taxes. The best way for government to allocate funds which it did not make but collected from the people is to give it back to them. Poverty is a convenient ruse used by government know-nothings to extort money from efficient private businesses. That is the corruption you keep talking about and enough Indians have faced that for sufficient time to want to rid of the entire thing.

Again you miss the point. Why does it matter what money is spent on? It matters, in my view, where it comes from, and the best way to keep making more of it. It is not by higher taxes. As for space programs, it could be privatized for all I care. But given there are military dimensions to airspace, it is understandable that governments like to keep a tab on these things. Even Elon Musk gets his space company shepherded by NASA, even if covertly.

If you wish to take the line of argument of prestige, then most of what governments do and takes up government budgets - construct grand government buildings (you think “the people” funded the grand monstrosities in New Delhi?), pay civil servants for doing nothing, keep inefficient businesses running by giving them ‘national importance’ status, construction of statues, monuments and museums, airports, belt and road for crying out loud are all prestige projects. All that cost money, much more than the space program.

What government project in your opinion has an ROI sufficient enough that a private party would consider putting in their hard-earned money into? The results of the space program are at least visible. It is a thorough exercise of the skills of the scientists and engineers concerned. Not your concern, but yes, the country by and large appreciates that. And, much more, much more is spent fattening up civil servants than is spent on the space program. I thought you were from Britain; Margaret Thatcher did a whole thing about privatizing state enterprises there in the 1980s. Apparently, coal was a prestige industry.

What lack of empathy do you keep talking about? It is fine for visitors like you to be empathetic about India; it is a picture you’d like us to fit in. I call it racism and nothing else. I recognize the extreme levels of poverty in India and look for the quickest ways to get as many of them out of the trap as possible. Your recipe to cure it is to, judging from your views, to have a massive welfare state to support the moochers rather than getting people to work. You agree with me that India needs cleaning up? And there is no shortage of people. So why the unemployment?

In all honesty, except that many are thin, dark and poorly clothed, what do you know about India’s poor? Honestly? What do you know about their motivations, their aspirations, and their idea of climbing up the economic ladder? What these people lack most of all is confidence. India is USD 3 trillion economy. A space program is a trickle. An affordable trickle hell yes. Just like the Republic Day parade - an expensive boondoggle. But they all serve a purpose.

I don’t like the politician’s approach to poverty at all - they’ve cried about it since 1947 and what has happened? Why is it still a problem today? This is how I see it, as a potential Indian voter - come election time, you will invariably get a bunch of paid-to-be-poor, otherwise useless layabouts to feign the wrath of the apocalypse at the incumbent, come up with demands on the public purse (the taxpayer’s money) that cannot conceivably be met, find some identitarian basis on which to gather votes (not on policy merits) and then demand booze and girls in payment. This is how it usually works. The question is very pertinent - why is India still poor after 70 years of peacetime? The amorphous term “poor” has been used as a readymade votebank by politicians for election cycle after election cycle. Is it wrong to ask - when will they go away?

I fear I will enter a loop repeating the same point so I will stop on that.

On a more general note, it is worthwhile to observe that in India, there is really no such thing as a right-wing conservative political conversation, at least not in the public sphere. All the cacophony you hear are a number of socialisms fighting each other, playing off on divisions. These days it is the fate of the UK as well. The only real classic liberal - conservative right-wing - conversations I have seen taking place are in the US.

In India, the sad part is that everyone is into the socialism nonsense. Even pro-business is pro-crony capitalism. The country is in such a stranglehold of socialism and people have been so thoroughly indoctrinated they don’t even realize it. There is simply no public conversation about a pro-free enterprise, pro-market, low-government, classic liberal, culturally conservative method of operating society. None. The right-wing you hear of in Indian media are cultural identitarians - they aren’t right wing at all. I prefer not to make much of the fact that I am Indian in the interest of an objective conversation, so I try and stay away from “As an Indian...” statements. The deep resentment of free enterprise and open markets among the general Indian population, and the wild propaganda that exists about political events, mixed with the typical petty Indian biases means that it is just hard to get them to think any other way.

Until a time comes when people in Britain say “Look, the Indians are dealing with this problem this way; maybe we should do that” I simply cannot stop you from your poverty snores. More than anything, Indians should realize that. They are far from that point now.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 1:35 am
  #895  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=madathil.krishnanunni;12661667]
[QUOTE=morpeth;12657861]
Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni


Sir

The best remedy for government to stop spending on fanciful projects would be to stop paying taxes. The best way for government to allocate funds which it did not make but collected from the people is to give it back to them. Poverty is a convenient ruse used by government know-nothings to extort money from efficient private businesses. That is the corruption you keep talking about and enough Indians have faced that for sufficient time to want to rid of the entire thing.

Again you miss the point. Why does it matter what money is spent on? It matters, in my view, where it comes from, and the best way to keep making more of it. It is not by higher taxes. As for space programs, it could be privatized for all I care. But given there are military dimensions to airspace, it is understandable that governments like to keep a tab on these things. Even Elon Musk gets his space company shepherded by NASA, even if covertly.

If you wish to take the line of argument of prestige, then most of what governments do and takes up government budgets - construct grand government buildings (you think “the people” funded the grand monstrosities in New Delhi?), pay civil servants for doing nothing, keep inefficient businesses running by giving them ‘national importance’ status, construction of statues, monuments and museums, airports, belt and road for crying out loud are all prestige projects. All that cost money, much more than the space program.

What government project in your opinion has an ROI sufficient enough that a private party would consider putting in their hard-earned money into? The results of the space program are at least visible. It is a thorough exercise of the skills of the scientists and engineers concerned. Not your concern, but yes, the country by and large appreciates that. And, much more, much more is spent fattening up civil servants than is spent on the space program. I thought you were from Britain; Margaret Thatcher did a whole thing about privatizing state enterprises there in the 1980s. Apparently, coal was a prestige industry.

What lack of empathy do you keep talking about? It is fine for visitors like you to be empathetic about India; it is a picture you’d like us to fit in. I call it racism and nothing else. I recognize the extreme levels of poverty in India and look for the quickest ways to get as many of them out of the trap as possible. Your recipe to cure it is to, judging from your views, to have a massive welfare state to support the moochers rather than getting people to work. You agree with me that India needs cleaning up? And there is no shortage of people. So why the unemployment?

In all honesty, except that many are thin, dark and poorly clothed, what do you know about India’s poor? Honestly? What do you know about their motivations, their aspirations, and their idea of climbing up the economic ladder? What these people lack most of all is confidence. India is USD 3 trillion economy. A space program is a trickle. An affordable trickle hell yes. Just like the Republic Day parade - an expensive boondoggle. But they all serve a purpose.

I don’t like the politician’s approach to poverty at all - they’ve cried about it since 1947 and what has happened? Why is it still a problem today? This is how I see it, as a potential Indian voter - come election time, you will invariably get a bunch of paid-to-be-poor, otherwise useless layabouts to feign the wrath of the apocalypse at the incumbent, come up with demands on the public purse (the taxpayer’s money) that cannot conceivably be met, find some identitarian basis on which to gather votes (not on policy merits) and then demand booze and girls in payment. This is how it usually works. The question is very pertinent - why is India still poor after 70 years of peacetime? The amorphous term “poor” has been used as a readymade votebank by politicians for election cycle after election cycle. Is it wrong to ask - when will they go away?

I fear I will enter a loop repeating the same point so I will stop on that.

On a more general note, it is worthwhile to observe that in India, there is really no such thing as a right-wing conservative political conversation, at least not in the public sphere. All the cacophony you hear are a number of socialisms fighting each other, playing off on divisions. These days it is the fate of the UK as well. The only real classic liberal - conservative right-wing - conversations I have seen taking place are in the US.

In India, the sad part is that everyone is into the socialism nonsense. Even pro-business is pro-crony capitalism. The country is in such a stranglehold of socialism and people have been so thoroughly indoctrinated they don’t even realize it. There is simply no public conversation about a pro-free enterprise, pro-market, low-government, classic liberal, culturally conservative method of operating society. None. The right-wing you hear of in Indian media are cultural identitarians - they aren’t right wing at all. I prefer not to make much of the fact that I am Indian in the interest of an objective conversation, so I try and stay away from “As an Indian...” statements. The deep resentment of free enterprise and open markets among the general Indian population, and the wild propaganda that exists about political events, mixed with the typical petty Indian biases means that it is just hard to get them to think any other way.

Until a time comes when people in Britain say “Look, the Indians are dealing with this problem this way; maybe we should do that” I simply cannot stop you from your poverty snores. More than anything, Indians should realize that. They are far from that point now.
We are in agreement certainly about much the value of free enterprise, the negatives of crony capitalism, etc.

Simply put my opinion size,scale and depth of poverty it is unacceptable prestige projects or as you point out excessive expenses by government, of which the Space program is just on example, just a misallocation of resources. Supporter of welfare state ? I am unaware where you derive such ideas. Racist to be against such projects in countries like India with such poverty ? Even Bipat has admitted within India itself there have been criticisms of such programs.

India has tremendous potential especially if the government would step out of the way, and as you well point out not much of a constituency

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Old Mar 28th 2019, 1:59 am
  #896  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=morpeth;12662253][QUOTE=madathil.krishnanunni;12661667]
Originally Posted by morpeth
We are in agreement certainly about much the value of free enterprise, the negatives of crony capitalism, etc.

Simply put my opinion size,scale and depth of poverty it is unacceptable prestige projects or as you point out excessive expenses by government, of which the Space program is just on example, just a misallocation of resources. Supporter of welfare state ? I am unaware where you derive such ideas. Racist to be against such projects in countries like India with such poverty ? Even Bipat has admitted within India itself there have been criticisms of such programs.

India has tremendous potential especially if the government would step out of the way, and as you well point out not much of a constituency
Sir

The bit we disagree on is where I think the space program is one of the few things we get right. Of all the money pilfered away via the welfare state, in terms of return on investment, whether measured in dollars or pride, the space program and the workers involved there can hold there income statements and balance sheets up high. Much more is spent on farm subsidiaries, has been for the past forever years, and there is barely any improvement in their condition. Your outrage, and of those who think similarly, is misplaced.

I don’t there are enough wealthy private citizens in India yet with deep enough pockets to fund such projects on their own.

The drift in your argument is - Indians are too poor, so no space. There is a segment of them that are poor, and they are not poor because of the space program. The prescription is for the wrong symptom. I can repeat my whole argument again and come to the same conclusion.

The problem is one of definitions. What is a prestige project? If you define it as something with little to no return, and lump the Indian space program into that, then clearly you are ignoring the utility of the space programs - please refer to my previous posts. Now whether it is your innate bias or just ignorance; I will leave that to you. Olympics are a prestige project; Brazil did it; China did it; for heavens sake Greece did it. I suppose Indians have learnt a lesson there; still couldn’t resist splurging on the Commonwealth Games. Zero returns there.

I could argue that the Indian space program has aided the active management of crops which has led to continuous surpluses in India for decades on end now, helping millions escape the poverty and hunger trap. Are you suggesting you’d rather have many more millions wallow in poverty rather than gallop along away from it? The INSAT telecom satellites too have helped revolutionize Indian telecoms. Those in India who label this, at the outset, as a boondoggle often are on a long vacation from facts.

I think you and I agree that poverty is a problem and a grave one at that. But we differ by a mile on how to go about resolving it. What you are suggesting is akin to cutting down all the trees in a forest so the short ones can feel better about themselves. I suggest the short trees be given the means and incentives to grow up to the tall trees.

If if it were the last USD 200 million available to GoI, I’d of course divert it to basic necessities. The space program is 0.5% of India’s GDP if not less. Think about it, 20% of GoI’s annual payments are interest payments alone. There are far bigger issues here than ruining a few space scientists’ party.



Last edited by madathil.krishnanunni; Mar 28th 2019 at 2:15 am.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 5:06 am
  #897  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni
Sir

The bit we disagree on is where I think the space program is one of the few things we get right. Of all the money pilfered away via the welfare state, in terms of return on investment, whether measured in dollars or pride, the space program and the workers involved there can hold there income statements and balance sheets up high. Much more is spent on farm subsidiaries, has been for the past forever years, and there is barely any improvement in their condition. Your outrage, and of those who think similarly, is misplaced.

I don’t there are enough wealthy private citizens in India yet with deep enough pockets to fund such projects on their own.

The drift in your argument is - Indians are too poor, so no space. There is a segment of them that are poor, and they are not poor because of the space program. The prescription is for the wrong symptom. I can repeat my whole argument again and come to the same conclusion.

The problem is one of definitions. What is a prestige project? If you define it as something with little to no return, and lump the Indian space program into that, then clearly you are ignoring the utility of the space programs - please refer to my previous posts. Now whether it is your innate bias or just ignorance; I will leave that to you. Olympics are a prestige project; Brazil did it; China did it; for heavens sake Greece did it. I suppose Indians have learnt a lesson there; still couldn’t resist splurging on the Commonwealth Games. Zero returns there.

I could argue that the Indian space program has aided the active management of crops which has led to continuous surpluses in India for decades on end now, helping millions escape the poverty and hunger trap. Are you suggesting you’d rather have many more millions wallow in poverty rather than gallop along away from it? The INSAT telecom satellites too have helped revolutionize Indian telecoms. Those in India who label this, at the outset, as a boondoggle often are on a long vacation from facts.

I think you and I agree that poverty is a problem and a grave one at that. But we differ by a mile on how to go about resolving it. What you are suggesting is akin to cutting down all the trees in a forest so the short ones can feel better about themselves. I suggest the short trees be given the means and incentives to grow up to the tall trees.

If if it were the last USD 200 million available to GoI, I’d of course divert it to basic necessities. The space program is 0.5% of India’s GDP if not less. Think about it, 20% of GoI’s annual payments are interest payments alone. There are far bigger issues here than ruining a few space scientists’ party.


[/left]
[/left]
You need to study the changes in Indian Agriculture,
Before the development in the US of drought resistant varieties and dwarf species of rice India was the worlds largest recipient of food aid.
Not just from the west but also Russia.
It is not India's space program you should thank but western biologists and plant scientists, some of who won Nobel prizes for their achievements,..

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:08 am.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 7:08 am
  #898  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=madathil.krishnanunni;12662270]
[QUOTE=morpeth;12662253]
Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni


Sir

The bit we disagree on is where I think the space program is one of the few things we get right. Of all the money pilfered away via the welfare state, in terms of return on investment, whether measured in dollars or pride, the space program and the workers involved there can hold there income statements and balance sheets up high. Much more is spent on farm subsidiaries, has been for the past forever years, and there is barely any improvement in their condition. Your outrage, and of those who think similarly, is misplaced.

I don’t there are enough wealthy private citizens in India yet with deep enough pockets to fund such projects on their own.

The drift in your argument is - Indians are too poor, so no space. There is a segment of them that are poor, and they are not poor because of the space program. The prescription is for the wrong symptom. I can repeat my whole argument again and come to the same conclusion.

The problem is one of definitions. What is a prestige project? If you define it as something with little to no return, and lump the Indian space program into that, then clearly you are ignoring the utility of the space programs - please refer to my previous posts. Now whether it is your innate bias or just ignorance; I will leave that to you. Olympics are a prestige project; Brazil did it; China did it; for heavens sake Greece did it. I suppose Indians have learnt a lesson there; still couldn’t resist splurging on the Commonwealth Games. Zero returns there.

I could argue that the Indian space program has aided the active management of crops which has led to continuous surpluses in India for decades on end now, helping millions escape the poverty and hunger trap. Are you suggesting you’d rather have many more millions wallow in poverty rather than gallop along away from it? The INSAT telecom satellites too have helped revolutionize Indian telecoms. Those in India who label this, at the outset, as a boondoggle often are on a long vacation from facts.

I think you and I agree that poverty is a problem and a grave one at that. But we differ by a mile on how to go about resolving it. What you are suggesting is akin to cutting down all the trees in a forest so the short ones can feel better about themselves. I suggest the short trees be given the means and incentives to grow up to the tall trees.

If if it were the last USD 200 million available to GoI, I’d of course divert it to basic necessities. The space program is 0.5% of India’s GDP if not less. Think about it, 20% of GoI’s annual payments are interest payments alone. There are far bigger issues here than ruining a few space scientists’ party.


My argument is that for a country that can't even meet the basic sanitation needs of tens of millions, and the depth and scale of poverty in India, that a Space and similar programs are for prestige and betray an impression of the de-sensitized nature of the upper and middle classes in India to the poverty that exists.

Your comments about supposed benefits of the space program to India first depends on whether on a humanitarian basis one accepts the poverty situation in India, and second if not, how could be better employed to help the poor and the economy in general or simply whether better left in private hands. Arguments about the benefits of the space program such that it has a greater multiplier effect on the economy than alternate uses would depend on whether there is any hard and objective data showing that starting India's own space program is cheaper for example that booking space on other satellites. Anecdotally speaking to officials from the World Bank, IMF, and having been in international business for thirty years the pretty consistent message has been the difficulty in the Third World trying to keep government officials away from prestige projects or uneconomic allocation of to nationalist concerns, How India spending money to put a man on the moon when tens of millions do not even have toilets is beyond my understanding though it seems to make sense to Indians whenever discussed.

( This is not to say India is the only country prone to politicians making inane decisions).

At no point have I stated or even implied poverty was caused by the Space Program- what I have stated that India since 1947 for decades followed ineffective and often inane economic policies up until the progress of recent years- and the socialist-crony capitalism remains in place albeit impressive economic progress in recent years.

Actually you kind of prove my point you admit at some level you would agree funds should be diverted to help the poor or economic growth- just a question of at what point.
By all means I can be convinced by any rational analysis showing that spending money to put a man on the moon has a greater economic multiplier effect than alternate uses of funds, just have never seen anyone claiming that for India able to show that. As far as the humanitarian aspect, perhaps that is a more subjective measure
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Old Apr 7th 2019, 12:27 am
  #899  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
You need to study the changes in Indian Agriculture,
Before the development in the US of drought resistant varieties and dwarf species of rice India was the worlds largest recipient of food aid.
Not just from the west but also Russia.
It is not India's space program you should thank but western biologists and plant scientists, some of who won Nobel prizes for their achievements,..
A recent article about prestige projects in India :

VARANASI, India – In the Indian city Hindus consider the center of the world, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has commissioned a grand promenade connecting the sacred Ganges River with the centuries-old Vishwanath temple dedicated to Lord Shiva, the god of destruction.

….In his five years as prime minister, Modi has pushed to promote this secular nation of 1.3 billion people and nine major religions — including about 170 million Muslims — as a distinctly Hindu state.

The $115 million promenade is just one of a number of Modi's religious glamour projects, aimed squarely at pleasing his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party's base ahead of elections that start on Thursday. While India is majority Hindu, critics say such projects undermine India's multiculturalism, potentially stoke religious tension, and come at the expense of far more pressing infrastructure needs.

The project is also part of a larger Hindu nationalist effort to erase evidence of India's diverse past.

There are those who say the money could have been better spent in one of the world's oldest living cities, where men relieve themselves in public on trash-strewn streets and sewage flows into the Ganges near religious bathers…

The Vishwanath project is part of a broader campaign to downplay the Muslim Mughal dynasty's place in Indian history. The campaign includes restoring the Hindu names of cities that were renamed by Mughals centuries ago….

Deepak Agarwal, the city commissioner overseeing the Vishwanath project, said that residents had been paid at least twice the market rate for their properties and that no one had been forced to leave.

….But the temple project is a BJP-led effort to stamp India's Hindu mores onto a multicultural society, historians and political scientists say.

"It's a bid to rewrite the ground rules of Indian republican politics by either implicitly or explicitly arguing that India needs to be remade as a state defined by its majority faith," said writer and professor Mukul Kesavan.

Other examples abound. Last October, Modi unveiled another dream project: a statue in Gujarat of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, an Indian independence leader, politician and Hindu. The Statue of Unity is the world's largest, almost twice as high as the Statue of Liberty.

And in January, the central government in New Delhi and the BJP-led government of Uttar Pradesh state spent an unprecedented $650 million on a Hindu mega-fest, advertising the event on CNN and plastering the festival grounds with posters of Modi and the state's chief minister, Yogi Adityanath, a Hindu monk who was arrested but not prosecuted for allegedly inciting a deadly 2007 anti-Muslim riot.



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Old Apr 7th 2019, 1:41 am
  #900  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
A recent article about prestige projects in India :

1) VARANASI, India – In the Indian city Hindus consider the center of the world, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has commissioned a grand promenade connecting the sacred Ganges River with the centuries-old Vishwanath temple dedicated to Lord Shiva, the god of destruction.

2)….In his five years as prime minister, Modi has pushed to promote this secular nation of 1.3 billion people and nine major religions — including about 170 million Muslims — as a distinctly Hindu state.

The $115 million promenade is just one of a number of Modi's religious glamour projects, aimed squarely at pleasing his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party's base ahead of elections that start on Thursday. While India is majority Hindu, critics say such projects undermine India's multiculturalism, potentially stoke religious tension, and come at the expense of far more pressing infrastructure needs.

The project is also part of a larger Hindu nationalist effort to erase evidence of India's diverse past.

There are those who say the money could have been better spent in one of the world's oldest living cities, where men relieve themselves in public on trash-strewn streets and sewage flows into the Ganges near religious bathers…

3) The Vishwanath project is part of a broader campaign to downplay the Muslim Mughal dynasty's place in Indian history. The campaign includes restoring the Hindu names of cities that were renamed by Mughals centuries ago….

Deepak Agarwal, the city commissioner overseeing the Vishwanath project, said that residents had been paid at least twice the market rate for their properties and that no one had been forced to leave.

….But the temple project is a BJP-led effort to stamp India's Hindu mores onto a multicultural society, historians and political scientists say.

"It's a bid to rewrite the ground rules of Indian republican politics by either implicitly or explicitly arguing that India needs to be remade as a state defined by its majority faith," said writer and professor Mukul Kesavan.

4) Other examples abound. Last October, Modi unveiled another dream project: a statue in Gujarat of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, an Indian independence leader, politician and Hindu. The Statue of Unity is the world's largest, almost twice as high as the Statue of Liberty.

5) And in January, the central government in New Delhi and the BJP-led government of Uttar Pradesh state spent an unprecedented $650 million on a Hindu mega-fest, advertising the event on CNN and plastering the festival grounds with posters of Modi and the state's chief minister, Yogi Adityanath, a Hindu monk who was arrested but not prosecuted for allegedly inciting a deadly 2007 anti-Muslim riot.
1) Just some thoughts Morpeth.
''Varanasi-City Hindus think of as the centre of the world'
Which Hindus? Obviously the strictly religious but not many in my experience ----it is tradition to be cremated there or ashes thrown but for most this doesn't happen.
Last views I heard-----'don't go there--- the roads are so busy pedestrians can't cross'.

2) If Hindus number nearly 80% of the population it is obviously a 'Hindu country'---Just as the UK is a 'Christian country' with TV showing many Christian ceremonies and parades.
There is legal equality for all religions (although Muslims retain Shariya law for family and inheritance matters).

There has been so much international criticism of the state of the Ganges----so now complaints about the 'clean up'---you can't have it both ways.

3) The destruction of houses and shops is unfortunate-----just as it is for new airports in the UK. I don't know about compensation.

Change of names-----there have been many changes of from British given names of major cities-----some are used in conversation others only officially.

Money spent for political purposes-----always happens ----- the amounts spent by Congress (a far wealthier party) over the decades is immense. (Leader of the opposition is now campaigning for leadership in 'two' States----'hedging his bets'!!)

4) The statue has been discussed at length-----the cost (the ugliness!!!). Millions are buying tickets to see it!!! So some money back.
Many thought Sardar Patel should have been the first PM but Nehru made sure he wasn't.
He has not had any memorial and as a prominent independence activist people believed that he should be remembered by a statue------Just not that big!!!!!!!!

5) Yogi Adityanath----the tends to be mocked by press and people throughout most States. However he was voted in by his own State ---that is democracy.


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