India and the Wars

Old Mar 20th 2019, 6:33 am
  #871  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Why on earth would I be mortally offended???????????

I would say-----light when winter in the UK----mid--- when has some Indian sun on his face!!
Children and grandchildren all different shades. (They are all beautiful and handsome---my bias!!)

Perhaps to quote yourself EMR-----you should get out more and appreciate people's differences!
So you think its ok to be referred to by colour first , nationality second.
You do realise that this is the 21st century ,
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 6:45 am
  #872  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
So you think its ok to be referred to by colour first , nationality second.
You do realise that this is the 21st century ,

You are being ridiculous EMR.
You asked about my husbands looks. Presumably for interest???
He looked the same when he was Indian nationality as when he got a British passport. He was born brown is still brown I am pasty pink with some freckles (on account of the previous ginger hair!!!). What is your problem with people looking different to each other?
It is not about first, second or anything it is 'actuality'.

What is your hang-up about peoples looks???????
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 9:24 am
  #873  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

You are being ridiculous EMR.
You asked about my husbands looks. Presumably for interest???
He looked the same when he was Indian nationality as when he got a British passport. He was born brown is still brown I am pasty pink with some freckles (on account of the previous ginger hair!!!). What is your problem with people looking different to each other?
It is not about first, second or anything it is 'actuality'.

What is your hang-up about peoples looks???????
You still do not understand do you..,
I see you are back to invention again....


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Old Mar 20th 2019, 9:35 am
  #874  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Perhaps hopefully to end this debate with you Morpeth.
I have edited your cumbersome post to two points to agree on.

1) Corruption---- was 'top down' with the Congress Governments, with their nepotism and family money making. (I would leave out Manmohan Singh, known as a good economist---but used as a puppet PM to keep the "seat warm for Rahul"----his own words.

The present Government has made a point to end this----demonetisation was for that. It will not happen over night or within years.

My remark above if you read it, to M.K. about good Legal help----Lawyers in our town always get something wrong that needs re-doing etc. at a 'new price'.
Even our desperately poor neighbour three times sent back to get her gas ration book signed when told they couldn't read it. OH and some 'folding green' as our son calls it, got it signed.
(In another town even a 'death' certificate was delayed until extra payment.) This happens everywhere all the time!

Before you say it doesn't count because my personal knowledge is meaningless---ask all those friends you have.

As I said this is top down-----'I paid him so you pay me.'

2) I have previously put links where economists have predicted India will overtake China
Your personal 'knowledge' is meaningless when it is not logical or supported by evidence - which often has been definitely shown over and over again.

You are right we can agree the corruption is a serious problem in India and it is a negative factor in attracting investment and economic growth.

We can also agree- though probably for very different reasons- that India has the potentially to overtake China in terms of size of its economy.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 9:42 am
  #875  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I do not bring up "race" I bring up 'peoples' ----Indians are not British. Russians are not French. Chinese are not Spanish.

I tried anyway I could, in the face of your bizarre notion that Goans of India were Portuguese, to show you that they were NOT by pointing out that their 'looks' were different, so even you ought to be able to distinguish them.
Actually Bipat you have brought race on several occasions as one of your criticism of European rulers

You are now just being silly- repeatedly I have pointed out the De Jure and De Facto status of residents of Goa under the Portuguese, and specifically acknowledged and accepted the majority would probably have considered themselves ethnically and culturally Indian.Childish sarcasm doesn't win a point.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 10:08 am
  #876  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

[QUOTE=madathil.krishnanunni;12656946]


Sir

Many Indians are poor. So?

I’d argue on the lines of Milton Friedman that you’d always have a segment of society that is materially less well-off than others; given sufficient time and space, they will work their way out of it. To arrest the development of the country in the highest fields before every single Indian is above the poverty line is a recipe for a brain drain. The USD 2 billion going into space research a year is a tiny, tiny percentage (EMR) of the annual budget. I guess I’ll never convince a pessimist. It is the same thinking which would chafe where Indians to come up with a luxury car to rival Ferrari.

I am in two minds about corruption. One tends to give up without further inquiry, which is defeatist. A sense has crept in, no doubt a legacy of the past, that government needs to stick its fingers into everything, that Indians are somehow children in the face of the evil bad world. Best practices from around the world are being seen, by Indian civilians mostly, and relayed back home. For instance, buying and dealing in property in the US is a breeze compared to India. Only now are Indians even talking about REITs and such. It’s a natural part of growing up. But, all told, they do have a point about buccaneer capitalism; if there was a mechanism to secure their obligations in India, maybe the suspicion with which foreign investment is seen would be mitigated. In my view, India is among the most sophisticated modern polities in the world, with legislation to match. You must perhaps compare the experience of an Indian businessmen trying to enter the European market to see how it compares with your experience in India. Isn’t France a nightmare?

I think Indians talk a lot about corruption without understanding what causes it. “The whole system is messed up” is a convenient scapegoat and a conversation stopper. Lower taxes, fee-based government services, clarity in business processes and law, easy convertibility of currency and repatriation of profits, all are ideas doing the rounds. But the incentives surrounding the current system of high taxes and benefits are so strong, it will take a while to dismantle that. Which is why, on an experimental basis, tax-free, 100% foreign access towns could be an idea. There is no way a Bihar can be expected to be open like a Tamil Nadu at the same time.

As for aid, it is precious little making for grandstanding. I have seen British TV where they debate on and on about aid but please, we don’t want it. Indians can afford to divert resources to their own aid. As such I am not fully on with the NGO industry; their actions in India should ideally be subsumed under some government department.

You refer China to which I’d like to respond. I don’t think the Chinese model of development is actually stable or sustainable, given its Communist dictatorship and lack of civil liberties. Also, given the opacity of information from there, I’d take the information with a pinch of salt. Certainly they have improved, but there does seem to be a hollow core. The BRI to my mind is little more than a CCP effort to siphon away fundsSir
----------------------------------------------
Many Indians are poor. So?

n As usual in conversations with Indians or adopted Indians like Bypath, the scale and depth of poverty in India. (And many other Third World nations) is considered differently than what first world observers would consider. Whether form being de-sensitized to it or form embarrassment or national pride, on an anecdotal basis I have run across this for years.

n “I’d argue on the lines of Milton Friedman that you’d always have a segment of society that is materially less well-off than others; given sufficient time and space, they will work their way out of it.”

I do agree completely eliminating poverty in any country is an unrealistic goal for a variety of reasons, reducing it is achievable. Whether it can be worked out of depends on a variety of factors- with Ida’s current growth rates if they can be sustained in a few decades the situation will have changed drastically.

“I am in two minds about corruption…”
Hah yes doing business in France can be very bureaucratic to be sure, but that is a different issue than corruption, If you look at rankings of most corrupt nations in the world, India scores in the top tier of most corrupt nations0 and this effects the rational allocation of resources, and reduces the rule of law.

* “As for aid”, all I am saying with the scale and debt of poverty in Indi one would think putting national pride ahead of the poor is a bit reprehensible in my opinion.

* “You refer China” Convincing dyed in the wool socialists of good intentions, or ultra-nationalists, is not too easy for foreign enterprises. ( Since you are a fan of Friedman, it would be interesting considering the view he expressed in “Capitalism and Freedom” how he would view China the last 20 years) from China to overseas. The Indian story will take a while but offer everyone a better opportunity to be better off. It is to a degree a fear of losing her sovereignty which keeps India from opening up faster than she could. Maybe a lack of self-confidence. Examples like Union Carbide do little to dent the opinion. It is, in my view, up to the foreign investors partially to convince Indian authorities of their good intentions. This is a developing country, after all. The US is a lodestar in all this. Great currency, great and open (relatively) economy, strong institutions, great environment for entrepreneurs and business.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 6:51 pm
  #877  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
That you use " white ' shows how out of touch with modern thinking you are.
I am British that's it.
(smiles and smh)
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 7:31 pm
  #878  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth

Sir

Many Indians are poor. So?

I’d argue on the lines of Milton Friedman that you’d always have a segment of society that is materially less well-off than others; given sufficient time and space, they will work their way out of it. To arrest the development of the country in the highest fields before every single Indian is above the poverty line is a recipe for a brain drain. The USD 2 billion going into space research a year is a tiny, tiny percentage (EMR) of the annual budget. I guess I’ll never convince a pessimist. It is the same thinking which would chafe where Indians to come up with a luxury car to rival Ferrari.

I am in two minds about corruption. One tends to give up without further inquiry, which is defeatist. A sense has crept in, no doubt a legacy of the past, that government needs to stick its fingers into everything, that Indians are somehow children in the face of the evil bad world. Best practices from around the world are being seen, by Indian civilians mostly, and relayed back home. For instance, buying and dealing in property in the US is a breeze compared to India. Only now are Indians even talking about REITs and such. It’s a natural part of growing up. But, all told, they do have a point about buccaneer capitalism; if there was a mechanism to secure their obligations in India, maybe the suspicion with which foreign investment is seen would be mitigated. In my view, India is among the most sophisticated modern polities in the world, with legislation to match. You must perhaps compare the experience of an Indian businessmen trying to enter the European market to see how it compares with your experience in India. Isn’t France a nightmare?

I think Indians talk a lot about corruption without understanding what causes it. “The whole system is messed up” is a convenient scapegoat and a conversation stopper. Lower taxes, fee-based government services, clarity in business processes and law, easy convertibility of currency and repatriation of profits, all are ideas doing the rounds. But the incentives surrounding the current system of high taxes and benefits are so strong, it will take a while to dismantle that. Which is why, on an experimental basis, tax-free, 100% foreign access towns could be an idea. There is no way a Bihar can be expected to be open like a Tamil Nadu at the same time.

As for aid, it is precious little making for grandstanding. I have seen British TV where they debate on and on about aid but please, we don’t want it. Indians can afford to divert resources to their own aid. As such I am not fully on with the NGO industry; their actions in India should ideally be subsumed under some government department.

You refer China to which I’d like to respond. I don’t think the Chinese model of development is actually stable or sustainable, given its Communist dictatorship and lack of civil liberties. Also, given the opacity of information from there, I’d take the information with a pinch of salt. Certainly they have improved, but there does seem to be a hollow core. The BRI to my mind is little more than a CCP effort to siphon away fundsSir
----------------------------------------------
Many Indians are poor. So?

n As usual in conversations with Indians or adopted Indians like Bypath, the scale and depth of poverty in India. (And many other Third World nations) is considered differently than what first world observers would consider. Whether form being de-sensitized to it or form embarrassment or national pride, on an anecdotal basis I have run across this for years.

n “I’d argue on the lines of Milton Friedman that you’d always have a segment of society that is materially less well-off than others; given sufficient time and space, they will work their way out of it.”

I do agree completely eliminating poverty in any country is an unrealistic goal for a variety of reasons, reducing it is achievable. Whether it can be worked out of depends on a variety of factors- with Ida’s current growth rates if they can be sustained in a few decades the situation will have changed drastically.

“I am in two minds about corruption…”
Hah yes doing business in France can be very bureaucratic to be sure, but that is a different issue than corruption, If you look at rankings of most corrupt nations in the world, India scores in the top tier of most corrupt nations0 and this effects the rational allocation of resources, and reduces the rule of law.

* “As for aid”, all I am saying with the scale and debt of poverty in Indi one would think putting national pride ahead of the poor is a bit reprehensible in my opinion.

* “You refer China” Convincing dyed in the wool socialists of good intentions, or ultra-nationalists, is not too easy for foreign enterprises. ( Since you are a fan of Friedman, it would be interesting considering the view he expressed in “Capitalism and Freedom” how he would view China the last 20 years) from China to overseas. The Indian story will take a while but offer everyone a better opportunity to be better off. It is to a degree a fear of losing her sovereignty which keeps India from opening up faster than she could. Maybe a lack of self-confidence. Examples like Union Carbide do little to dent the opinion. It is, in my view, up to the foreign investors partially to convince Indian authorities of their good intentions. This is a developing country, after all. The US is a lodestar in all this. Great currency, great and open (relatively) economy, strong institutions, great environment for entrepreneurs and business.
Sir

I couldn’t resist on one point - what would you rather the thousands of capable aeronautical and space engineers from India’s educational institutions rather do? Grow cabbages?

I can can tell you about one other leader who through like you, sir. He called himself Pol Pot. How did that end up for Cambodia? The fallacy of your proposition that India should not invest in space research and completely stay away from it until every bum is housed and fed is plain ridiculous. Indians are not a monolith. Following your logic, neither should Indians run Google and Microsoft or JLR before “they” - a fifth of humanity - meets your definition of middle income. There is no nationalism here. I am, as I have repeatedly being saying, not a nationalist. But there is an air of high-handedness in your argument that may sound offensive to a plain mind, but at its root is utterly ridiculous.

I once again refer to Milton Friedman, who said that no society has ever graduated en masse out of poverty. I recognize there is poverty and the huge scale of it; the way to tackle it is not to stifle the higher capabilities, which are evident. It is to encourage people to be more productive. Undoubtedly, many millions are stuck in a poverty rut because of a simple lack of confidence - the guys running India’s space program are not heaven’s children - they are normal Indians. Listening to your argument would make one believe almost as if the space program is the cause for India’s poverty.

I don’t think the way to resolve poverty is to go Soviet Union about it. More than to outsiders, the space program is a demonstration first and foremost to Indians, those poor people you talk about, as to what can be achieved by them given the opportunity. And your like want to stop just that. How reprehensible! The noise in the BBC about India’s lack of toilets when Indians are busy finding water on the moon is just salt on open wounds. The response is natural, and I’m surprised you’re surprised.

You ignore completely the solid scientific gains achieved by these missions. In a few years, it is likely India could come up with its own version of the GPS. It helps in an age where data security is crucial. Please, you are not being Jesus Christ by pointing out the poverty in India - we know it full well and experience it. The way out is not Slumdog Millionaire. The way out is Henry Ford. The way out is Alfred Sloan. The way out is Haussmann. The way out is Neil Amrstrong. The way out is Sundar Pichai. The way out is Narayana Murthy.

Pride is is one thing, sir. That aside, the resources are eminently available. I repeat, India’s is a distribution problem not a production problem. What needs to be done in my view is to slowly wean people off the welfare chain and get them to stand on their own feet. Your feigned lament, and that is what it is, about India’s poverty stifles the full potential of Indians. It is best ignored.

Indians face the same problem as you do with dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way, the debate is not unlike what’s happening in the US between the Democrats and the Republicans.

I can can tell you about waste of money projects. Olympics. World Cup stadiums. Commonwealth Games stadiums. Expos. The after-event ROI of these projects paint a sorry picture. I hope the country doesn’t indulge in such true vanity projects until poverty is taken care of. Not space. Did you know that a fallout of India’s space program is the metal packaging for ready-to-eat Indian meals? Come on, both you and I love that!

I have nothing more to add to corruption, except what Milton Friedman has to say about this - the more incentives there are for people to be corrupt, the more corruption you’ll get. And I don’t think corruption rankings are a static measure; they change with time. Tell me, in which country among the bottom is it OK to be corrupt? [/left]

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:01 am. Reason: fix quote
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 9:51 pm
  #879  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Sir

I couldn’t resist on one point - what would you rather the thousands of capable aeronautical and space engineers from India’s educational institutions rather do? Grow cabbages?

I can can tell you about one other leader who through like you, sir. He called himself Pol Pot. How did that end up for Cambodia? The fallacy of your proposition that India should not invest in space research and completely stay away from it until every bum is housed and fed is plain ridiculous. Indians are not a monolith. Following your logic, neither should Indians run Google and Microsoft or JLR before “they” - a fifth of humanity - meets your definition of middle income. There is no nationalism here. I am, as I have repeatedly being saying, not a nationalist. But there is an air of high-handedness in your argument that may sound offensive to a plain mind, but at its root is utterly ridiculous.

I once again refer to Milton Friedman, who said that no society has ever graduated en masse out of poverty. I recognize there is poverty and the huge scale of it; the way to tackle it is not to stifle the higher capabilities, which are evident. It is to encourage people to be more productive. Undoubtedly, many millions are stuck in a poverty rut because of a simple lack of confidence - the guys running India’s space program are not heaven’s children - they are normal Indians. Listening to your argument would make one believe almost as if the space program is the cause for India’s poverty.

I don’t think the way to resolve poverty is to go Soviet Union about it. More than to outsiders, the space program is a demonstration first and foremost to Indians, those poor people you talk about, as to what can be achieved by them given the opportunity. And your like want to stop just that. How reprehensible! The noise in the BBC about India’s lack of toilets when Indians are busy finding water on the moon is just salt on open wounds. The response is natural, and I’m surprised you’re surprised.

You ignore completely the solid scientific gains achieved by these missions. In a few years, it is likely India could come up with its own version of the GPS. It helps in an age where data security is crucial. Please, you are not being Jesus Christ by pointing out the poverty in India - we know it full well and experience it. The way out is not Slumdog Millionaire. The way out is Henry Ford. The way out is Alfred Sloan. The way out is Haussmann. The way out is Neil Amrstrong. The way out is Sundar Pichai. The way out is Narayana Murthy.

Pride is is one thing, sir. That aside, the resources are eminently available. I repeat, India’s is a distribution problem not a production problem. What needs to be done in my view is to slowly wean people off the welfare chain and get them to stand on their own feet. Your feigned lament, and that is what it is, about India’s poverty stifles the full potential of Indians. It is best ignored.

Indians face the same problem as you do with dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way, the debate is not unlike what’s happening in the US between the Democrats and the Republicans.

I can can tell you about waste of money projects. Olympics. World Cup stadiums. Commonwealth Games stadiums. Expos. The after-event ROI of these projects paint a sorry picture. I hope the country doesn’t indulge in such true vanity projects until poverty is taken care of. Not space. Did you know that a fallout of India’s space program is the metal packaging for ready-to-eat Indian meals? Come on, both you and I love that!
Sir

I couldn’t resist on one point - what would you rather the thousands of capable aeronautical and space engineers from India’s educational institutions rather do? Grow cabbages?



In the study of economic history and development economics here have been many looking at the economic history of the third world and identified projects undertaken for prestige, or that simply don’t give more ‘bang for the buck’, and there is the issue of compassion for the poor. At what point does a society have the resources to invest in such projects is a reasonable question. This can be a question on many projects in many countries. If you believe investing in space projects is better for India’s poor and economic growth rate by all means I would be interested in a logical argument supporting that. As far as a few thousands engineers vs tens if not hundreds of millions o the poor in India my impression would be only a middle or upper class Indian would make such an argument.


I can can tell you about one other leader who through like you, sir. He called himself Pol Pot. How did that end up for Cambodia? The fallacy of your proposition that India should not invest in space research and completely stay away from it until every bum is housed and fed is plain ridiculous.



Looking my posts and indeed response to you nothing even remotely resembles Pol Pots economic philosophy. The arrogance that India’s poor are “bums”, and minimum consumption, housing and sanitation is less important than potential scientific advances just shows different priorities.





“Indians are not a monolith. Following your logic, neither should Indians run Google and Microsoft or JLR before “they” - a fifth of humanity - meets your definition of middle income. There is no nationalism here. I am, as I have repeatedly being saying, not a nationalist. But there is an air of high-handedness in your argument that may sound offensive to a plain mind, but at its root is utterly ridiculous.”



What on earth does the work of Indian expatriates or in India in the tech sector have to do with the allocation of resources to a space program ? There are many economists who question such allocation of resources, and if I am not mistaken even Bipat admitted some in India have question such projects It is only ridiculous to question such projects if one could show definitively the multiplier effect of funds spent such projects castle exceeds that of expenditure on infrastructure , housing or even sanitation- let alone empathy and concern for the poor..
I once again refer to Milton Friedman, who said that no society has ever graduated en masse out of poverty. I recognize there is poverty and the huge scale of it; the way to tackle it is not to stifle the higher capabilities, which are evident. It is to encourage people to be more productive. Undoubtedly, many millions are stuck in a poverty rut because of a simple lack of confidence - the guys running India’s space program are not heaven’s children - they are normal Indians. Listening to your argument would make one believe almost as if the space program is the cause for India’s poverty

No the Space program not the cause of India’s poverty- but indicative of the nationalist and usually socialist mentality of India’s leaders for many decades Milton Friedman would be the first to say that through proper monetary policy, and to free up the economy would be the aim objective to lift people out of poverty. anywhere. This requires good capital markets, attracting capital, reducing corruption and government involvement in the economy, promoting productivity growth and the supporting structures.

Indians have shown worldwide their intellectual and professional capabilities, business acumen, and India has economies of scale that most countries could only dream of. To advocate reduced government involvement in the economy, and allocation of resources to not only help the poor but build productivity growth and purchasing power Is not inherently ridiculous on any level.

Even in the USA and I assume Russia there are periodic debates on the respective space programs and budget allocations.

. I don’t think the way to resolve poverty is to go Soviet Union about it. More than to outsiders, the space program is a demonstration first and foremost to Indians, those poor people you talk about, as to what can be achieved by them given the opportunity. And your like want to stop just that. How reprehensible! The noise in the BBC about India’s lack of toilets when Indians are busy finding water on the moon is just salt on open wounds. The response is natural, and I’m surprised you’re surprised.

Actually I am not surprised, the emotive polemic and nationalism and defensive nature of such responses is not untypical of Indians I have met over the years- yet few would refer the poor as “bums” outright. Has nothing to do with the Soviet Union quite the opposite, free if idiotic counter-productive government restrictions and policies, India would do a lot better. If India has a shortage of toilets and other sanitation problems that isn’t a reflection on the Indian people but on the government and upper classes who run the country. ..

You ignore completely the solid scientific gains

No I don’t but by all means I would be fascinated that gains from the Indian Space program

Can it be shown to be more beneficial to India’s poor and its overall economy that applying those funds elsewhere.

The way out is Henry Ford. The way out is Alfred Sloan.

Quite agree.

Pride is is one thing, sir. That aside, the resources are eminently available. I repeat, India’s is a distribution problem not a production problem. What needs to be done in my view is to slowly wean people off the welfare chain and get them to stand on their own feet. Your feigned lament, and that is what it is, about India’s poverty stifles the full potential of Indians. It is best ignored.

Your post, which I appreciate and contains some great points, reeks of Indian upper class mentality about those you call ‘bums’. It isn’t a‘feigned’ lament , why would it be ? You mean distribution of income ? Surely considering India’s per capita GDP ( on a nominal or PPP basis) higher production and higher productivity required.

Indians face the same problem as you do with dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way, the debate is not unlike what’s happening in the US between the Democrats and the Republicans.

Good point !

I can can tell you about waste of money projects. Olympics. World Cup stadiums. Commonwealth Games stadiums. Expos. The after-event ROI of these projects paint a sorry picture. I hope the country doesn’t indulge in such true vanity projects until poverty is taken care of. Not space. Did you know that a fallout of India’s space program is the metal packaging for ready-to-eat Indian meals? Come on, both you and I love that!

Quite agree the ROI on such projects often is very poor or even non-existent.

I have nothing more to add to corruption, except what Milton Friedman has to say about this - the more incentives there are for people to be corrupt, the more corruption you’ll get.

I quite agree, and reducing government involvement in the economy tends to reduce corruption.

And I don’t think corruption rankings are a static measure; they change with time. Tell me, in which country among the bottom is it OK to be corrupt?

India has been in the top tier of most corrupt countries for some time, and it hurts businesses, misallocates resources, and reflecting on your points certainly doesn’t engender confidence. I agree such rankings can change over time, whether Modi’s policies will have a significant effect only time will tell
[/left]

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:04 am.
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Old Mar 20th 2019, 11:22 pm
  #880  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth

Sir

I couldn’t resist on one point - what would you rather the thousands of capable aeronautical and space engineers from India’s educational institutions rather do? Grow cabbages?

I can can tell you about one other leader who through like you, sir. He called himself Pol Pot. How did that end up for Cambodia? The fallacy of your proposition that India should not invest in space research and completely stay away from it until every bum is housed and fed is plain ridiculous. Indians are not a monolith. Following your logic, neither should Indians run Google and Microsoft or JLR before “they” - a fifth of humanity - meets your definition of middle income. There is no nationalism here. I am, as I have repeatedly being saying, not a nationalist. But there is an air of high-handedness in your argument that may sound offensive to a plain mind, but at its root is utterly ridiculous.

I once again refer to Milton Friedman, who said that no society has ever graduated en masse out of poverty. I recognize there is poverty and the huge scale of it; the way to tackle it is not to stifle the higher capabilities, which are evident. It is to encourage people to be more productive. Undoubtedly, many millions are stuck in a poverty rut because of a simple lack of confidence - the guys running India’s space program are not heaven’s children - they are normal Indians. Listening to your argument would make one believe almost as if the space program is the cause for India’s poverty.

I don’t think the way to resolve poverty is to go Soviet Union about it. More than to outsiders, the space program is a demonstration first and foremost to Indians, those poor people you talk about, as to what can be achieved by them given the opportunity. And your like want to stop just that. How reprehensible! The noise in the BBC about India’s lack of toilets when Indians are busy finding water on the moon is just salt on open wounds. The response is natural, and I’m surprised you’re surprised.

You ignore completely the solid scientific gains achieved by these missions. In a few years, it is likely India could come up with its own version of the GPS. It helps in an age where data security is crucial. Please, you are not being Jesus Christ by pointing out the poverty in India - we know it full well and experience it. The way out is not Slumdog Millionaire. The way out is Henry Ford. The way out is Alfred Sloan. The way out is Haussmann. The way out is Neil Amrstrong. The way out is Sundar Pichai. The way out is Narayana Murthy.

Pride is is one thing, sir. That aside, the resources are eminently available. I repeat, India’s is a distribution problem not a production problem. What needs to be done in my view is to slowly wean people off the welfare chain and get them to stand on their own feet. Your feigned lament, and that is what it is, about India’s poverty stifles the full potential of Indians. It is best ignored.

Indians face the same problem as you do with dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way, the debate is not unlike what’s happening in the US between the Democrats and the Republicans.

I can can tell you about waste of money projects. Olympics. World Cup stadiums. Commonwealth Games stadiums. Expos. The after-event ROI of these projects paint a sorry picture. I hope the country doesn’t indulge in such true vanity projects until poverty is taken care of. Not space. Did you know that a fallout of India’s space program is the metal packaging for ready-to-eat Indian meals? Come on, both you and I love that!
Sir

I couldn’t resist on one point - what would you rather the thousands of capable aeronautical and space engineers from India’s educational institutions rather do? Grow cabbages?



In the study of economic history and development economics here have been many looking at the economic history of the third world and identified projects undertaken for prestige, or that simply don’t give more ‘bang for the buck’, and there is the issue of compassion for the poor. At what point does a society have the resources to invest in such projects is a reasonable question. This can be a question on many projects in many countries. If you believe investing in space projects is better for India’s poor and economic growth rate by all means I would be interested in a logical argument supporting that. As far as a few thousands engineers vs tens if not hundreds of millions o the poor in India my impression would be only a middle or upper class Indian would make such an argument.


I can can tell you about one other leader who through like you, sir. He called himself Pol Pot. How did that end up for Cambodia? The fallacy of your proposition that India should not invest in space research and completely stay away from it until every bum is housed and fed is plain ridiculous.



Looking my posts and indeed response to you nothing even remotely resembles Pol Pots economic philosophy. The arrogance that India’s poor are “bums”, and minimum consumption, housing and sanitation is less important than potential scientific advances just shows different priorities.





“Indians are not a monolith. Following your logic, neither should Indians run Google and Microsoft or JLR before “they” - a fifth of humanity - meets your definition of middle income. There is no nationalism here. I am, as I have repeatedly being saying, not a nationalist. But there is an air of high-handedness in your argument that may sound offensive to a plain mind, but at its root is utterly ridiculous.”



What on earth does the work of Indian expatriates or in India in the tech sector have to do with the allocation of resources to a space program ? There are many economists who question such allocation of resources, and if I am not mistaken even Bipat admitted some in India have question such projects It is only ridiculous to question such projects if one could show definitively the multiplier effect of funds spent such projects castle exceeds that of expenditure on infrastructure , housing or even sanitation- let alone empathy and concern for the poor..
I once again refer to Milton Friedman, who said that no society has ever graduated en masse out of poverty. I recognize there is poverty and the huge scale of it; the way to tackle it is not to stifle the higher capabilities, which are evident. It is to encourage people to be more productive. Undoubtedly, many millions are stuck in a poverty rut because of a simple lack of confidence - the guys running India’s space program are not heaven’s children - they are normal Indians. Listening to your argument would make one believe almost as if the space program is the cause for India’s poverty

No the Space program not the cause of India’s poverty- but indicative of the nationalist and usually socialist mentality of India’s leaders for many decades Milton Friedman would be the first to say that through proper monetary policy, and to free up the economy would be the aim objective to lift people out of poverty. anywhere. This requires good capital markets, attracting capital, reducing corruption and government involvement in the economy, promoting productivity growth and the supporting structures.

Indians have shown worldwide their intellectual and professional capabilities, business acumen, and India has economies of scale that most countries could only dream of. To advocate reduced government involvement in the economy, and allocation of resources to not only help the poor but build productivity growth and purchasing power Is not inherently ridiculous on any level.

Even in the USA and I assume Russia there are periodic debates on the respective space programs and budget allocations.

. I don’t think the way to resolve poverty is to go Soviet Union about it. More than to outsiders, the space program is a demonstration first and foremost to Indians, those poor people you talk about, as to what can be achieved by them given the opportunity. And your like want to stop just that. How reprehensible! The noise in the BBC about India’s lack of toilets when Indians are busy finding water on the moon is just salt on open wounds. The response is natural, and I’m surprised you’re surprised.

Actually I am not surprised, the emotive polemic and nationalism and defensive nature of such responses is not untypical of Indians I have met over the years- yet few would refer the poor as “bums” outright. Has nothing to do with the Soviet Union quite the opposite, free if idiotic counter-productive government restrictions and policies, India would do a lot better. If India has a shortage of toilets and other sanitation problems that isn’t a reflection on the Indian people but on the government and upper classes who run the country. ..

You ignore completely the solid scientific gains

No I don’t but by all means I would be fascinated that gains from the Indian Space program

Can it be shown to be more beneficial to India’s poor and its overall economy that applying those funds elsewhere.

The way out is Henry Ford. The way out is Alfred Sloan.

Quite agree.

Pride is is one thing, sir. That aside, the resources are eminently available. I repeat, India’s is a distribution problem not a production problem. What needs to be done in my view is to slowly wean people off the welfare chain and get them to stand on their own feet. Your feigned lament, and that is what it is, about India’s poverty stifles the full potential of Indians. It is best ignored.

Your post, which I appreciate and contains some great points, reeks of Indian upper class mentality about those you call ‘bums’. It isn’t a‘feigned’ lament , why would it be ? You mean distribution of income ? Surely considering India’s per capita GDP ( on a nominal or PPP basis) higher production and higher productivity required.

Indians face the same problem as you do with dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way, the debate is not unlike what’s happening in the US between the Democrats and the Republicans.

Good point !

I can can tell you about waste of money projects. Olympics. World Cup stadiums. Commonwealth Games stadiums. Expos. The after-event ROI of these projects paint a sorry picture. I hope the country doesn’t indulge in such true vanity projects until poverty is taken care of. Not space. Did you know that a fallout of India’s space program is the metal packaging for ready-to-eat Indian meals? Come on, both you and I love that!

Quite agree the ROI on such projects often is very poor or even non-existent.

I have nothing more to add to corruption, except what Milton Friedman has to say about this - the more incentives there are for people to be corrupt, the more corruption you’ll get.

I quite agree, and reducing government involvement in the economy tends to reduce corruption.

And I don’t think corruption rankings are a static measure; they change with time. Tell me, in which country among the bottom is it OK to be corrupt?

India has been in the top tier of most corrupt countries for some time, and it hurts businesses, misallocates resources, and reflecting on your points certainly doesn’t engender confidence. I agree such rankings can change over time, whether Modi’s policies will have a significant effect only time will tell
Sir

So you’d like those thousands of engineers grafting their way through college to careers to leave all of that and grow cabbage. OK. Good luck selling that lemon.

By that logic, you’d also object to any Indian buying any luxury car until every person BPL was raised to a minimum income. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is Grade-A socialism which we’ve suffered for 60 years. No more. Society doesn’t spend money; people do. Society doesn’t earn money; people do. If people are poor, they should work their way out of it. Previously this was difficult in india and it still is. We are getting out of it now, slowly.

You should really look deep into the budget of the various Indian governments and see for yourself how much is spent on development projects versus how much, in total, goes towards the space program. I have already quoted a few practical gains previously so I’d like you to revisit my previous post. Care to google for the rest. I think you draw a vague connection between socialism, corruption and the space program. If anything, the space program is one of the few places without leakages and corruption, thank heavens, because most politicians don’t get what goes on there!

Upper classes don’t run the country. Not any more. If anything, they try doing it by appearing all high and mighty with a holier than thou attitude. If you don’t give opportunities to people, and people while away time as a result, a bum is a bum regardless of geographic location. It is English after all, to call a spade a spade.

Rather than being compassionate, which indicates a strong-weak relationship, why not talk about a partnership of equals? To think, the booming garments sector in Bangladesh has done more in a few years to pull more out of poverty from that country than all the aid given to them hitherto. Please. Stop with this fake concern. It is nauseating.

Corruption thrives in an environment where trust levels are low. Socialist states are such environments. If you had a million pounds, you’d do far more to help Indians by investing in and running a business than by giving it to Oxfam. You may get a good return here on earth too![/left]

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:05 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 7:10 am
  #881  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni
Sir

So you’d like those thousands of engineers grafting their way through college to careers to leave all of that and grow cabbage. OK. Good luck selling that lemon.

By that logic, you’d also object to any Indian buying any luxury car until every person BPL was raised to a minimum income. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is Grade-A socialism which we’ve suffered for 60 years. No more. Society doesn’t spend money; people do. Society doesn’t earn money; people do. If people are poor, they should work their way out of it. Previously this was difficult in india and it still is. We are getting out of it now, slowly.

You should really look deep into the budget of the various Indian governments and see for yourself how much is spent on development projects versus how much, in total, goes towards the space program. I have already quoted a few practical gains previously so I’d like you to revisit my previous post. Care to google for the rest. I think you draw a vague connection between socialism, corruption and the space program. If anything, the space program is one of the few places without leakages and corruption, thank heavens, because most politicians don’t get what goes on there!

Upper classes don’t run the country. Not any more. If anything, they try doing it by appearing all high and mighty with a holier than thou attitude. If you don’t give opportunities to people, and people while away time as a result, a bum is a bum regardless of geographic location. It is English after all, to call a spade a spade.

Rather than being compassionate, which indicates a strong-weak relationship, why not talk about a partnership of equals? To think, the booming garments sector in Bangladesh has done more in a few years to pull more out of poverty from that country than all the aid given to them hitherto. Please. Stop with this fake concern. It is nauseating.

Corruption thrives in an environment where trust levels are low. Socialist states are such environments. If you had a million pounds, you’d do far more to help Indians by investing in and running a business than by giving it to Oxfam. You may get a good return here on earth too![/left]
You seem to be constructing a straw man that doesn’t exist ! I would be the last person someone would classify as a socialist !

“So you’d like those thousands of engineers grafting their way through college to careers to leave all of that and grow cabbage. OK. Good luck selling that lemon.”

The issue as you very well know is if resources are to be in the hands of the government how best to allocate. Whether there may be some potential benefits for the program vs a better allocation of funds is a reasonable issue that can be debated- and is applicable not only to India for prestige type projects.

“By that logic, you’d also object to any Indian buying any luxury car until every person BPL was raised to a minimum income. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is Grade-A socialism which we’ve suffered for 60 years.”

Not at all- I was discussing government funds being used for prestige projects, or projects that had less bang for the buck.

“I think you draw a vague connection between socialism, corruption and the space program.”

I haven’t a clue how you would come to such a conclusion

“If anything, the space program is one of the few places without leakages and corruption, thank heavens, because most politicians don’t get what goes on there!”

---I doubt any government procurement project in India doesn't have some level of corruption involved whether in the Space program or elsewhere. In fact some the most high-profile corruption cases in Asia and Latin America have been related to areas of higher technological complexity.
.
“If you don’t give opportunities to people, and people while away time as a result, a bum is a bum regardless of geographic location.”

Your pejorative use of the word bum to describe millions of India’s poor speaks volumes on how you view poor people. They “while away their time”, you can’t be serious. In the UK maybe, but in India ?

“Please. Stop with this fake concern. It is nauseating.”

---I quite agree with you promoting opportunities better than welfare. As far as nauseating it more so the lack of empathy for those who you call bums that is nauseating I would think. You don’t know me so why would you say I have a fake concern?. Funny I argue with Bipat why socialist type restrictions on investments and business are counter -productive, now being described as a socialist because I question the Indian government allocating resources to what I consider prestige projects.

Corruption thrives in an environment where trust levels are low. Socialist states are such environments. If you had a million pounds, you’d do far more to help Indians by investing in and running a business than by giving it to Oxfam. You may get a good return here on earth too!

--I quite agree.
[/left]

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:05 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 8:58 am
  #882  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
You seem to be constructing a straw man that doesn’t exist ! I would be the last person someone would classify as a socialist !

“So you’d like those thousands of engineers grafting their way through college to careers to leave all of that and grow cabbage. OK. Good luck selling that lemon.”

The issue as you very well know is if resources are to be in the hands of the government how best to allocate. Whether there may be some potential benefits for the program vs a better allocation of funds is a reasonable issue that can be debated- and is applicable not only to India for prestige type projects.

“By that logic, you’d also object to any Indian buying any luxury car until every person BPL was raised to a minimum income. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is Grade-A socialism which we’ve suffered for 60 years.”

Not at all- I was discussing government funds being used for prestige projects, or projects that had less bang for the buck.

“I think you draw a vague connection between socialism, corruption and the space program.”

I haven’t a clue how you would come to such a conclusion

“If anything, the space program is one of the few places without leakages and corruption, thank heavens, because most politicians don’t get what goes on there!”

---I doubt any government procurement project in India doesn't have some level of corruption involved whether in the Space program or elsewhere. In fact some the most high-profile corruption cases in Asia and Latin America have been related to areas of higher technological complexity.
.
“If you don’t give opportunities to people, and people while away time as a result, a bum is a bum regardless of geographic location.”

1)
Your pejorative use of the word bum to describe millions of India’s poor speaks volumes on how you view poor people. They “while away their time”, you can’t be serious. In the UK maybe, but in India ?.

“Please. Stop with this fake concern. It is nauseating.”

---I quite agree with you promoting opportunities better than welfare. As far as nauseating it more so the lack of empathy for those who you call bums that is nauseating I would think. You don’t know me so why would you say I have a fake concern?. Funny I argue with Bipat why socialist type restrictions on investments and business are counter -productive, now being described as a socialist because I question the Indian government allocating resources to what I consider prestige projects.

Corruption thrives in an environment where trust levels are low. Socialist states are such environments. If you had a million pounds, you’d do far more to help Indians by investing in and running a business than by giving it to Oxfam. You may get a good return here on earth too!

--I quite agree.
[/left]
I think M.K is using the word "bum" differently than you as a British person would use it.
He has a point about 'fake concern', the concern of a foreigner who sees "the poor", as a homogenous mass of 'clones'.
They are individuals. From the majority desperately underprivileged to those in all 'shades' of difference up to the those who are criminals. Even among the latter some doing what they have to do to survive and those who just exploit others in poverty.
The men as opposed to the women and children.

I could give you so many examples of cities/rural differences but that would be inadmissible personal knowledge.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:05 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 9:09 am
  #883  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I think M.K is using the word "bum" differently than you as a British person would use it.
He has a point about 'fake concern', the concern of a foreigner who sees "the poor", as a homogenous mass of 'clones'.
They are individuals. From the majority desperately underprivileged to those in all 'shades' of difference up to the those who are criminals. Even among the latter some doing what they have to do to survive and those who just exploit others in poverty.
The men as opposed to the women and children.

I could give you so many examples of cities/rural differences but that would be inadmissible personal knowledge.
Poverty is Poverty , its as simple as that..

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:05 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 9:24 am
  #884  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Poverty is Poverty , its as simple as that..
So what you are saying 'the poor' in your eyes are all the 'same'!!
Rural and city, those who have absolutely ' nothing', those who have food and clothes but no decent living place, those who have a home but cannot afford anything but basic food rations. Those poor who help other poor who have less than themselves. The criminal poor who make others even poorer.

EMR you have this strange idea about foreigners as a mass if identi-clones--they are 'people' good and bad just like the British.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:06 am.
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Old Mar 21st 2019, 10:19 am
  #885  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

So what you are saying 'the poor' in your eyes are all the 'same'!!
Rural and city, those who have absolutely ' nothing', those who have food and clothes but no decent living place, those who have a home but cannot afford anything but basic food rations. Those poor who help other poor who have less than themselves. The criminal poor who make others even poorer.

EMR you have this strange idea about foreigners as a mass if identi-clones--they are 'people' good and bad just like the British.
India has a income measure to determine who is in poverty, Therefore by its own standards India regards the poor as a mass of identi clones and not people..
The UK and every other nation does the same.

Last edited by Bob; Mar 28th 2019 at 10:06 am.
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