India and the Wars

Old Mar 15th 2019, 6:32 am
  #826  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Sorry EMR I do not know where the $5 a day is coming from ?

I gave you a sample of what a professional might make in a job typically considered middle class and their lifestyle on 1000 to 1500$ per month in Colombia. Certainly a middle class person in the UK couldnt have that same level of material lifestyle on 1300 pounds a month- or even 2500 or 3000 pounds per month- that is one of reasons purchasing power is considered. Bipat can comment on Indian costs, but I have no problem believing a similar situation exists but I dont know.I would be curious her on the ground observations.For example what I describe one can live on for 1000 or 1500$ per month could the same lifestyle be had in India for that amount ?

It also would be curious to know the income equality in India- GDP per capita on a purchasing power basis so low, around the level of Angola,, and if the upper and middle classes live very well, I wonder how much is left over for the poor. Even if there is perfect income equality it would take around 28 years at constant 7% growth for India to reach UK per capita purchasing power rates ) of course I would love to hear Bipat dispute the basic math).

I am interested in Bipats comments but in general why would there be a reason to doubt a middle class person if one defines by profession,and some criteria for material lifestyle in a similar way, wouldnt be better off in India ? .
From the University of Mumbai figures on growth in " middle class numbers in " India one of the much vaunted figures used to celebrate economic progress.
Other sources QUOTE an even lower figure.

For me what matters is not glib phrases but real evidence of rising incomes, rising numbers moving up in the income scale , genuine improvements in living standards.

UK cost of living is estimated to be around 53 % higher than India's so allowing for comparative purchasing powers very simply some one earning half of their UK equivalent would have a similar purchasing power..

Hopefully Bipat can post the rise in per capita income in the last 5 -10 years.
The population numbers moving up within specific bands of income in the last 5 -10 years.
Genuine rising living standards is far more relevant than applying meaningless terminology like " middle class ".

Last edited by EMR; Mar 15th 2019 at 6:50 am.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 7:07 am
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Originally Posted by EMR
From the University of Mumbai figures on growth in " middle class numbers in " India one of the much vaunted figures used to celebrate economic progress.

For me what matters is not glib phrases but real evidence of rising incomes, rising numbers moving up in the income scale , genuine improvements in living standards.

UK cost of living is estimated to be around 53 % higher than India's so allowing for comparative purchasing powers very simply some one earning half of their UK equivalent would have a similar purchasing power..

Hopefully Bipat can post the rise in per capita income in the last 5 -10 years.
The population numbers moving up within specific bands of income in the last 5 -10 years.
Genuine rising living standards is far more relevant than applying meaningless terminology like " middle class ".
I can't give you actual figures-----I am not going to ask strangers their incomes.
I can't give figures of those moving up, however of the poor families I know all their children---have 'moved up'.
I know that a neighbour----a postman--- who would earn 17,000 rupees a month + pension if he had passed the necessary exams but he didn't, so gets 12,000. He gets paid for checking up on our house when we are not there. He used to work the cinema projector until the cinema closed.
He supports his wife and children, their house is a rent free charity owned place.
However they are certainly not short of food, the children are well clothed, his wife brings us cooked food as a gift. This is just ONE example.

Most poor do not have 'fixed income', rickshaw drivers etc. the latter get free bank loans for new vehicles so they earn enough to pay the instalments. Shop workers get what the owner gives them. Certainly tax is mostly not paid whether due or not. The very poor have a cash based economy.

EMR-- what I cannot prove to you is that over the last few years for the poor, a marked change has taken place, people are better clothed, have TVs, phones, can afford bus journeys to other towns and relatives, arrange a decent wedding for daughters etc. etc. We see it not just in our town but elsewhere------(and certainly in Goa ----immense changes!)

Forgot to mention the 'benefits', food, gas supplements etc.

Last edited by Bipat; Mar 15th 2019 at 8:17 am.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 8:53 am
  #828  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I can't give you actual figures-----I am not going to ask strangers their incomes.
I can't give figures of those moving up, however of the poor families I know all their children---have 'moved up'.
I know that a neighbour----a postman--- who would earn 17,000 rupees a month + pension if he had passed the necessary exams but he didn't, so gets 12,000. He gets paid for checking up on our house when we are not there. He used to work the cinema projector until the cinema closed.
He supports his wife and children, their house is a rent free charity owned place.
However they are certainly not short of food, the children are well clothed, his wife brings us cooked food as a gift. This is just ONE example.

Most poor do not have 'fixed income', rickshaw drivers etc. the latter get free bank loans for new vehicles so they earn enough to pay the instalments. Shop workers get what the owner gives them. Certainly tax is mostly not paid whether due or not. The very poor have a cash based economy.

EMR-- what I cannot prove to you is that over the last few years for the poor, a marked change has taken place, people are better clothed, have TVs, phones, can afford bus journeys to other towns and relatives, arrange a decent wedding for daughters etc. etc. We see it not just in our town but elsewhere------(and certainly in Goa ----immense changes!)

Forgot to mention the 'benefits', food, gas supplements etc.
Bipat you have access to the internet etc to prove your claims , it is not asking too much to expect to do this.
You claim others are wrong , well maybe we are , so it's up to you to prove it...
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 10:16 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Bipat you have access to the internet etc to prove your claims , it is not asking too much to expect to do this.
You claim others are wrong , well maybe we are , so it's up to you to prove it...
What claims should I prove?
In what way have I claimed others are wrong?

You keep repeating the same college study!

EMR, Do you you really think the salaries of all types of work are available on-line?
If you want to know, you look it up.

Can you not understand that the poor do not get salaries, I have told you about 'benefits/ food/gas cylinders etc. free schooling, hospitals etc.

If you don't believe what I post from personal knowledge ---that is your problem.

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Old Mar 15th 2019, 10:39 am
  #830  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
What claims should I prove?
In what way have I claimed others are wrong?

You keep repeating the same college study!

EMR, Do you you really think the salaries of all types of work are available on-line?
If you want to know, you look it up.

Can you not understand that the poor do not get salaries, I have told you about 'benefits/ food/gas cylinders etc. free schooling, hospitals etc.

If you don't believe what I post from personal knowledge ---that is your problem.
You really do not have any idea of how to debate or what joining a forum means do you.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 11:23 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
You really do not have any idea of how to debate or what joining a forum means do you.
EMR---this is discussion forum and also a forum where people ask for and receive information and help.

It is not a place for continued rudeness and personal criticism.

I asked you what claims you wanted me to prove.
I asked you in what way I had said others were wrong.

I pointed out that the salaries of all Indian workers are unlikely to be on line. Surely if you want to know these why would YOU not look them up?
I gave you information about the cash economy of the poor----this will not be on line!!!

I provide you with information as I said if you just want to ignore this what can I do???

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Old Mar 15th 2019, 12:39 pm
  #832  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR---this is discussion forum and also a forum where people ask for and receive information and help.

It is not a place for continued rudeness and personal criticism.

I asked you what claims you wanted me to prove.
I asked you in what way I had said others were wrong.

I pointed out that the salaries of all Indian workers are unlikely to be on line. Surely if you want to know these why would YOU not look them up?
I gave you information about the cash economy of the poor----this will not be on line!!!

I provide you with information as I said if you just want to ignore this what can I do???
Suggestion Google personal income growth India 2000- 2018 by profession and social groupings.
Its what the internet is for.
Beats asking the neighbours any day..
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 8:21 pm
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Originally Posted by EMR
Suggestion Google personal income growth India 2000- 2018 by profession and social groupings.
Its what the internet is for.
Beats asking the neighbours any day..
As it is you that wanted to know the obvious answer is that you look!

Any figures will come from taxation info.
Do you know the small % of people that pay tax?
Only public employees are taxed at source.
There is much tax avoidance among the business community. (Remember India is a nation of shop keepers!)

As I pointed out to you the poor have a cash economy.
But need to prove their low income to get benefits.

Remember the 'black' economy.
The recent demonetisation was partly successful.

EMR actual knowledge comes from using your eyes and being in the country for years not sitting in a chair looking at Google.

A link for you-----doubt the figures will be accurate due to reasons above.
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/d...ersonal-income

PS --remember that Indian people across all social groups buy gold as a means of saving--this will not be recorded.

Last edited by Bipat; Mar 15th 2019 at 8:27 pm.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 9:21 pm
  #834  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
As it is you that wanted to know the obvious answer is that you look!

Any figures will come from taxation info.
Do you know the small % of people that pay tax?
Only public employees are taxed at source.
There is much tax avoidance among the business community. (Remember India is a nation of shop keepers!)

As I pointed out to you the poor have a cash economy.
But need to prove their low income to get benefits.

Remember the 'black' economy.
The recent demonetisation was partly successful.

EMR actual knowledge comes from using your eyes and being in the country for years not sitting in a chair looking at Google.

A link for you-----doubt the figures will be accurate due to reasons above.
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/d...ersonal-income

PS --remember that Indian people across all social groups buy gold as a means of saving--this will not be recorded.
If you are right then any figures you post are nonsense because as you keep suggesting there is no valid way of you confirming them.
So they are political propaganda, you have just confirmed it.
You would have to divide your chart figure by the total working population , which you say no one knows..
India is not a nation of shopkeepers, Agriculture still is by far the largest area of employment, or are these figures also wrong
Can we believe any link you post.

Last edited by EMR; Mar 15th 2019 at 9:26 pm.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 9:41 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
If you are right then any figures you post are nonsense because as you keep suggesting there is no valid way of you confirming them.
So they are political propaganda, you have just confirmed it.
You would have to divide your chart figure by the total working population , which you say no one knows..
India is not a nation of shopkeepers, Agriculture still is by far the largest area of employment, or care these figures also wrong
Can we believe any link you post.

You have just proved my point EMR.
It is you and your twin Morpeth who post figures/statistics which you believe absolutely and then accuse me of doubting them.

The link I posted was by Trade Economics.

There is nothing EMR that replaces personal observation to judge overall progress of living standards and how peoples lives are changing.
However in India there are great differences between State economies some are progressing far faster than others.

Yes you are correct regarding agriculture ---I was referring to - towns and cities.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 10:04 pm
  #836  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
You have just proved my point EMR.
It is you and your twin Morpeth who post figures/statistics which you believe absolutely and then accuse me of doubting them.

The link I posted was by Trade Economics.

There is nothing EMR that replaces personal observation to judge overall progress of living standards and how peoples lives are changing.
However in India there are great differences between State economies some are progressing far faster than others.

Yes you are correct regarding agriculture ---I was referring to - towns and cities.
As you have said, any figure you produce have just as much validity as ours , so let's ignore your last link. Agreed.!
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 11:54 pm
  #837  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
You have just proved my point EMR.
It is you and your twin Morpeth who post figures/statistics which you believe absolutely and then accuse me of doubting them.

The link I posted was by Trade Economics.

There is nothing EMR that replaces personal observation to judge overall progress of living standards and how peoples lives are changing.
However in India there are great differences between State economies some are progressing far faster than others.

Yes you are correct regarding agriculture ---I was referring to - towns and cities.
Bipat we know about your personal observations, and the conclusions you derive from them. You see foreign goods in ships then you state India is open to foreign trade an investment. Then the reality is pointed out the numerous and ongoing trade and investment restrictions. You then without evidence argue against this, then go on that (a) you are there so no one else can have valid opinion (b) India is a big country (c) you see progress (d) your family told you so.

In this post as in others you keep saying India is progressing but as far as I know no one has denied the recent and ongoing progress. SO what on earth is the point ? What does the link you posted have to do with the subject you and EMR are discussing ? If I understand your point ( I am not sure I do or anyone could) I would think relatively easy since you are living there to give an idea to EMR how a professional person in India may have a much better material life than someone with a similar position in the UK.

Economists do have ways to make estimates when there is limited data, ad I can assure you there is intense study on eh amount gold going in or out of India for example.

Maybe I am misunderstanding is anyone denying there has been good progress in India that last 5 to 10 years?

Seems some different views are out there about the size and composition about the middle class in India
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41264072

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41198638

https://www.business-standard.com/ar...2900181_1.html

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/0A...e-reality.html

I think what life style someone in the middle class can purchase may be a better indicator than just what people earn as the example I gave shows- I would be interested on how Bipat would estimate a similar lifestyle to the one I described would cost in India.

If the GDP per capita on a purchasing power parity $7,200, and the one article says inequality in India now at the highest rate in 92 ears, I wonder how much is left for the poor ?

One thing for sure though seems a bit of a challenge the numbers in India as to whom is classified as middle class- one figure saying 24 million, another a few hundred million.






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Old Mar 16th 2019, 12:42 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat we know about your personal observations, and the conclusions you derive from them. You see foreign goods in ships then you state India is open to foreign trade an investment. Then the reality is pointed out the numerous and ongoing trade and investment restrictions. You then without evidence argue against this, then go on that (a) you are there so no one else can have valid opinion (b) India is a big country (c) you see progress (d) your family told you so.

In this post as in others you keep saying India is progressing but as far as I know no one has denied the recent and ongoing progress. SO what on earth is the point ? What does the link you posted have to do with the subject you and EMR are discussing ? If I understand your point ( I am not sure I do or anyone could)*

1) I would think relatively easy since you are living there to give an idea to EMR how a professional person in India may have a much better material life than someone with a similar position in the UK.

2) Economists do have ways to make estimates when there is limited data, ad I can assure you there is intense study on eh amount gold going in or out of India for example.

Maybe I am misunderstanding is anyone denying there has been good progress in India that last 5 to 10 years?

3) Seems some different views are out there about the size and composition about the middle class in India
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41264072

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41198638

https://www.business-standard.com/ar...2900181_1.html

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/0A...e-reality.html

4) I think what life style someone in the middle class can purchase may be a better indicator than just what people earn as the example I gave shows- I would be interested on how Bipat would estimate a similar lifestyle to the one I described would cost in India.

5) If the GDP per capita on a purchasing power parity $7,200, and the one article says inequality in India now at the highest rate in 92 ears, I wonder how much is left for the poor ?

6) One thing for sure though seems a bit of a challenge the numbers in India as to whom is classified as middle class- one figure saying 24 million, another a few hundred million.
1) There is no further point in giving you personal observations, it just results in a responding post making snide remarks.

2) My point about gold was not about it going in or out of the country but the amount kept by individuals as security.

All families traditionally keep gold for this purpose.
This includes the poor -----a single bangle can be used as security for a small bank loan. (A recent change for the poor, was for a bank account to be opened without deposit.)

3) As has been said above there is no absolute definition of "middle class"---(In any country?)

4) The people in India I know who have the sort of life style you described are business people ---I do not know their personal wealth statistics.

5) I have explained to you regarding the cash economy of the poor and the black economy (which for example flourishes in the Mumbai major slum---it is the children and women who mainly suffer here). The Government plans regarding digitalisation are really not going to work, certainly in the short term.

6) ---See 3.

* EMR asked a question------I suggested he looked it up himself----he apparently couldn't ---he again suggested Google---I provided a link. ( had already supplied him with links to his 'repeated' referral to the Mumbai college study.) Hardly a discussion just continued personal criticism of anything I post.
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Old Mar 16th 2019, 12:58 am
  #839  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) There is no further point in giving you personal observations, it just results in a responding post making snide remarks.

2) My point about gold was not about it going in or out of the country but the amount kept by individuals as security.

All families traditionally keep gold for this purpose.
This includes the poor -----a single bangle can be used as security for a small bank loan. (A recent change for the poor, was for a bank account to be opened without deposit.)

3) As has been said above there is no absolute definition of "middle class"---(In any country?)

4) The people in India I know who have the sort of life style you described are business people ---I do not know their personal wealth statistics.

5) I have explained to you regarding the cash economy of the poor and the black economy (which for example flourishes in the Mumbai major slum---it is the children and women who mainly suffer here). The Government plans regarding digitalisation are really not going to work, certainly in the short term.

6) ---See 3.

* EMR asked a question------I suggested he looked it up himself----he apparently couldn't ---he again suggested Google---I provided a link. ( had already supplied him with links to his 'repeated' referral to the Mumbai college study.) Hardly a discussion just continued personal criticism of anything I post.
Comprehension issues again Bipat, you said that the information provided was unreliable giving reasons, therefore the same applies to any you provide.
Either all are right or all are wrong, do you now understand.
India does have a definition of middle class, because the government and you quote the rising numbers of middle class.
If the numbers are rising therefore there must be a datum from which that calculation was made.
Clearly you have never studied or understand statistics.
I have not looked it up because it is you who disputes the figures, therefore it is you who has to provide evidence to support your case.
That is how debate works, .
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Old Mar 16th 2019, 1:17 am
  #840  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) There is no further point in giving you personal observations, it just results in a responding post making snide remarks.

2) My point about gold was not about it going in or out of the country but the amount kept by individuals as security.

All families traditionally keep gold for this purpose.
This includes the poor -----a single bangle can be used as security for a small bank loan. (A recent change for the poor, was for a bank account to be opened without deposit.)

3) As has been said above there is no absolute definition of "middle class"---(In any country?)

4) The people in India I know who have the sort of life style you described are business people ---I do not know their personal wealth statistics.

5) I have explained to you regarding the cash economy of the poor and the black economy (which for example flourishes in the Mumbai major slum---it is the children and women who mainly suffer here). The Government plans regarding digitalisation are really not going to work, certainly in the short term.

6) ---See 3.

* EMR asked a question------I suggested he looked it up himself----he apparently couldn't ---he again suggested Google---I provided a link. ( had already supplied him with links to his 'repeated' referral to the Mumbai college study.) Hardly a discussion just continued personal criticism of anything I post.
Your personal observations always welcomed and helpful. The point (1) wasnt mean to be snide and sorry you took it that way- it just seemed that after a long history of denying evidence when it is available that directly contradicts your observations it seemed worthwhile to remind us of that.it is not meant to be snide- people with no understanding of economics or economic history, and have an extreme bias will often make such mistakes- as you did on the issue of taxation in British India, or ongoing Indian trade and investment restrictions, you simply are unaware except apparent folk memory of many Indian economic issues.What is frustration even when obviously wrong you continue to hold a position because (a) you live there (b) what your family has said.

You have repeatedly said people who dot live there ae necessarily wrong because they dont know the facts because they dont live there- as i pointed out there many facts about many countries that dont require one living there to know.

I gave an example on the point of someone in a middle class profession in a third world country their material lifestyle which could be compared to someone in similar position in UK, I would think a similar situation you could describe in India. Just trying to move the conversation forward

No snideness or impoliteness intended whatsoever.
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