India and the Wars

Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:59 pm
  #811  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR-----is every study by any UK university accepted as what the 'UK' ---thinks'?
Did you actually read the link????

I have not given a definition of middle class only suggested that in most countries 'professionals' are described as 'middle class'-----how would YOU describe them EMR?
I think also many UK people would dispute your definition of 'middle class'.

EMR this recent topic on this thread was regarding lifestyle and what you get for your money.
I would repeat what you get for your money is more in India.
(For heavens [I edited my original word] sake EMR -------I spend in both countries coming and going during all years.)

PS---- Just for interest which 'towns and villages' did you go to where you saw no other tourists??
Kalwar, Karuli where we stayed and others we stopped in whose names we were not given..
The farm in drought affected rajahstan we we sat in his farm building and ate on the floor with a farmer and his family.
Bundi which gets fewer visitors in a year than the Taj does in an average day.
Not everybody goes to the Golden triangle and comes back claiming they have seen India.

India uses income so I used the same comparative definition used in the UK.

I know you get more for your money, because wages are much lower so suppliers cannot charge higher prices.
But once you get into areas where the affluent shop, prices are not that different,.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 12:35 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Kalwar, Karuli where we stayed and others we stopped in whose names we were not given..
The farm in drought affected rajahstan we we sat in his farm building and ate on the floor with a farmer and his family.
Bundi which gets fewer visitors in a year than the Taj does in an average day.
Not everybody goes to the Golden triangle and comes back claiming they have seen India.

India uses income so I used the same comparative definition used in the UK.

I know you get more for your money, because wages are much lower so suppliers cannot charge higher prices.
But once you get into areas where the affluent shop, prices are not that different,.

​​​​​EMR, while I haven’t studied any statistics on the matter or definitions comparing middle class in the UK vs India. I tend to think Bipat is correct in her assertions. I will example and I am sure Bipat can look at and say if a similar situation exists in India.

I have some recent experience in Colombia in Medellin. A town of super friendly people wonderful weather, and in the parts a foreign would live or visit certainly safer than most American cities or parts of London these days. A Salary of $1000 or $1,500 a month would be a reasonable salary of someone in the lower or even average middle class. And yes they have modern shopping malls etc. with higher imported price, or prices set high enough to control the type of clientele. For that salary a family of three say husband. wife and child could have a modern brand new three or even four bedroom flat, in a building with 24 hour security swimming pool, sauna and gym, utilities and food ( fresh food without tins or frozen food), car (though expensive) child in a private school, annual vacations to the beach, and a maid 20 hours a week for cleaning etc. Pick up the phone for almost any services available for lunch? Three course meal delivered with freshly squeezed pint of fruit less than 2 pounds- want someone to come fix a computer or appliance, a fraction of cost in the UK and they actually show up at whatever hour is needed. Tutor for the child? Two pounds an hour for PhD student as opposed to 20 or even 30 pounds an hour in the UK. Work environment? A lot more laid back and easy compared to UK or USA. And that lifestyle would be without wife working! Free sports facilities – far more than most parts of UK. Education standards probably below UK but for sure on average before university level above USA.A Taxi to enter of town, depending on which town, 2 to 7 pounds. Dog needs to go to Vet, for a pound or two they will come pick up the dog and return afterwards. Need someone to visit to do nails or even cut hair at home no problem and fraction of cost of visiting salon in UK. Need fruit? Instead of paying over a pound for a very small carton blueberries at ASDA- for same price a kilo or more of mangoes.

- What would it cost for a middle class person to have the same material lifestyle in the UK ?

- Bipat can enlighten us but I assume a similar type comparison might show a middle class person In India could quite possibly have a higher standard of living that someone in the same profession in the UK would have.

-

- On a purchasing power parity basis figures or 2018 :

UK 43,600

Mexico 19,500

Colombia 14,500

India 7.200

Angola 6,800

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Old Mar 15th 2019, 12:48 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat you keep writing things that make no sense ! You wrote : "Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----" If look at posts other he timeline of these discussions that point has been made repeatedly by either EMR or myself about different issues, in relation to the differences. And in relation to the lifestyle and purchasing power of the middle class in India vs UK I just finished posting that it wouldn't ih the least surprise me hat a middle class Indian had a better material let alone general better quality of life.

You are obviously struggling with either the language or not paying attention

As far as the comparison of the poor, I provided links and documentation, you had none as usual yet continued to argue for a rather fanciful vision.

As far as the middle class based on my own experience living in third world countries, and conversations with people I know from the subcontinent, I havent the slightest reason to doubt your comment though as you say it may depend on one's version of what a comfortable life is. I think you are correct but that is only from anecdotal experience ( I havent done any study in the issue) I have had in third world countries. For example when I lived in American Mexican professionals we brought it all said the same thing- that their quality of life better in Mexico let alone education for their children
Your post 799---You said the opposite.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 1:00 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Kalwar, Karuli where we stayed and others we stopped in whose names we were not given..
The farm in drought affected rajahstan we we sat in his farm building and ate on the floor with a farmer and his family.
Bundi which gets fewer visitors in a year than the Taj does in an average day.
Not everybody goes to the Golden triangle and comes back claiming they have seen India.

India uses income so I used the same comparative definition used in the UK.

I know you get more for your money, because wages are much lower so suppliers cannot charge higher prices.
But once you get into areas where the affluent shop, prices are not that different,.
Yes one State----Rajasthan---a major tourist State! Organised tours such as you describe.

Yes "affluent" an issue of semantics, I would not describe the 'middle classes' as 'affluent'.
EMR you are speaking of luxuries, certainly as I said malls and places like airport outlets sell stuff which my 'middle class' UK family couldn't/wouldn't afford in the general way.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 1:14 am
  #815  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Yes one State----Rajasthan---a major tourist State! Organised tours such as you describe.

Yes "affluent" an issue of semantics, I would not describe the 'middle classes' as 'affluent'.
EMR you are speaking of luxuries, certainly as I said malls and places like airport outlets sell stuff which my 'middle class' UK family couldn't/wouldn't afford in the general way.
So why did we see so few tourists then.
Clothes, phones, tv's, glasses etc are luxuries are they ..
I agree many of those referred to as middle class may not be affluent, that's because the income definition to qualify is artificially low ..
Just admit , you cannot stand having facts and eyewitness observations disprove your views and opinions..
You may well not be middle class by UK income definitions,, we are not but who cares.
Who in the UK goes on and on about rising middle class numbers..

Last edited by EMR; Mar 15th 2019 at 1:22 am.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 1:41 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
So why did we see so few tourists then.
Clothes, phones, tv's, glasses etc are luxuries are they ..
I agree many of those referred to as middle class may not be affluent, that's because the income definition to qualify is artificially low ..
Just admit , you cannot stand having facts and eyewitness observations disprove your views and opinions..
You may well not be middle class by UK income definitions,, we are not but who cares.
Who in the UK goes on and on about rising middle class numbers..
EMR-------
I don't know why you in that particular time didn't see many tourists. Remember-- domestic tourists----you might not distinguish them!

Those Indian people that most UK citizens would describe as 'poor'----have TVs, phones, glasses not sure what you are saying? You don't have to go to malls to buy those!
Clothes the range of prices is SO wide -----from market stalls to foreign designer wear in malls.

I do not describe most teachers, doctors, bank workers etc. in India as affluent but I think I would describe them as 'middle class'.

EMR I do not think an eyewitness account from a three week holiday is really enough to be able to know all the lifestyle of various classes of Indian people of 29 States.

What of my views and opinions have you "disproved". What we spend is hardly "an opinion"----I can read receipts!!!!

EMR this is all off topic of 'India and the Wars'.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 1:51 am
  #817  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR-------
I don't know why you in that particular time didn't see many tourists. Remember-- domestic tourists----you might not distinguish them!

Those Indian people that most UK citizens would describe as 'poor'----have TVs, phones, glasses not sure what you are saying? You don't have to go to malls to buy those!
Clothes the range of prices is SO wide -----from market stalls to foreign designer wear in malls.

I do not describe most teachers, doctors, bank workers etc. in India as affluent but I think I would describe them as 'middle class'.

EMR I do not think an eyewitness account from a three week holiday is really enough to be able to know all the lifestyle of various classes of Indian people of 29 States.

What of my views and opinions have you "disproved". What we spend is hardly "an opinion"----I can read receipts!!!!

EMR this is all off topic of 'India and the Wars'.
Here we go again anytime you lose an argument you have been involved in its " off topic ".
You must be a terrible loser at any game you
It's simple Bipat anyone who makes claims such as you do about growing middle class etc , in dactvanything , should first check the datum, or FACTs as they are known..

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Old Mar 15th 2019, 2:19 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Here we go again anytime you lose an argument you have been involved in its " off topic ".
You must be a terrible loser at any game you
It's simple Bipat anyone who makes claims such as you do about growing middle class etc , in dactvanything , should first check the datum, or FACTs as they are known..
EMR ---what argument have I lost?????
The middle class IS growing. What the "definition" of middle class is, is open to discussion. I told you that particular college study included those most would not include. For example street vendors.
(I presume though a PM is classed as 'middle' even though a previous street vendor!!)

Some define by work/education qualifications etc.
Others by their income level in the country they live in.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 3:06 am
  #819  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ---what argument have I lost?????
The middle class IS growing. What the "definition" of middle class is, is open to discussion. I told you that particular college study included those most would not include. For example street vendors.
(I presume though a PM is classed as 'middle' even though a previous street vendor!!)

Some define by work/education qualifications etc.
Others by their income level in the country they live in.
​​​​​​
OK let's sum it up
India defines middle class by its own artificially low income level and therefore should not be compared to any other countries definition or taken too seriously.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 3:40 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
​​​​​​
OK let's sum it up
India defines middle class by its own artificially low income level and therefore should not be compared to any other countries definition or taken too seriously.
EMR--- Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
It was ONE published study by ONE college. It doesn't represent the opinion of the entire country!!!!

Have you no experience of college publications?
How many times to tell you most Indian people would not define street vendors etc as 'middle class'.
What is YOUR definition of 'middle class'.
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 3:43 am
  #821  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR--- Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
It was ONE published study by ONE college. It doesn't represent the opinion of the entire country!!!!

Have you no experience of college publications?
How many times to tell you most Indian people would not define street vendors etc as 'middle class'.
What is YOUR definition of 'middle class'.
If comparing it to Indian standards the UKs definition by Income..
Personally I have little time for those who express a false superiority by referring to themselves by any class...
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 4:20 am
  #822  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
​​​​​EMR, while I haven’t studied any statistics on the matter or definitions comparing middle class in the UK vs India. I tend to think Bipat is correct in her assertions. I will example and I am sure Bipat can look at and say if a similar situation exists in India.

I have some recent experience in Colombia in Medellin. A town of super friendly people wonderful weather, and in the parts a foreign would live or visit certainly safer than most American cities or parts of London these days. A Salary of $1000 or $1,500 a month would be a reasonable salary of someone in the lower or even average middle class. And yes they have modern shopping malls etc. with higher imported price, or prices set high enough to control the type of clientele. For that salary a family of three say husband. wife and child could have a modern brand new three or even four bedroom flat, in a building with 24 hour security swimming pool, sauna and gym, utilities and food ( fresh food without tins or frozen food), car (though expensive) child in a private school, annual vacations to the beach, and a maid 20 hours a week for cleaning etc. Pick up the phone for almost any services available for lunch? Three course meal delivered with freshly squeezed pint of fruit less than 2 pounds- want someone to come fix a computer or appliance, a fraction of cost in the UK and they actually show up at whatever hour is needed. Tutor for the child? Two pounds an hour for PhD student as opposed to 20 or even 30 pounds an hour in the UK. Work environment? A lot more laid back and easy compared to UK or USA. And that lifestyle would be without wife working! Free sports facilities – far more than most parts of UK. Education standards probably below UK but for sure on average before university level above USA.A Taxi to enter of town, depending on which town, 2 to 7 pounds. Dog needs to go to Vet, for a pound or two they will come pick up the dog and return afterwards. Need someone to visit to do nails or even cut hair at home no problem and fraction of cost of visiting salon in UK. Need fruit? Instead of paying over a pound for a very small carton blueberries at ASDA- for same price a kilo or more of mangoes.

- What would it cost for a middle class person to have the same material lifestyle in the UK ?

- Bipat can enlighten us but I assume a similar type comparison might show a middle class person In India could quite possibly have a higher standard of living that someone in the same profession in the UK would have.

-

- On a purchasing power parity basis figures or 2018 :

UK 43,600

Mexico 19,500

Colombia 14,500

India 7.200

Angola 6,800

$5 a day as the starting rate x 7 = $35 week x 5 2 =: $1820 I would hardly call that a fair or accurate definition of what represents the starting point to define a middle class income or lifestyle .
But that is the starting figure used..
Let's" more double it to $4000annum still a very low figure. , what UK purchasing power would that equate to ?
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 5:51 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Your post 799---You said the opposite.
It was a typographical error I meant the opposite- good catch
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 6:06 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
$5 a day as the starting rate x 7 = $35 week x 5 2 =: $1820 I would hardly call that a fair or accurate definition of what represents the starting point to define a middle class income or lifestyle .
But that is the starting figure used..
Let's" more double it to $4000annum still a very low figure. , what UK purchasing power would that equate to ?
Sorry EMR I do not know where the $5 a day is coming from ?

I gave you a sample of what a professional might make in a job typically considered middle class and their lifestyle on 1000 to 1500$ per month in Colombia. Certainly a middle class person in the UK couldnt have that same level of material lifestyle on 1300 pounds a month- or even 2500 or 3000 pounds per month- that is one of reasons purchasing power is considered. Bipat can comment on Indian costs, but I have no problem believing a similar situation exists but I dont know.I would be curious her on the ground observations.For example what I describe one can live on for 1000 or 1500$ per month could the same lifestyle be had in India for that amount ?

It also would be curious to know the income equality in India- GDP per capita on a purchasing power basis so low, around the level of Angola,, and if the upper and middle classes live very well, I wonder how much is left over for the poor. Even if there is perfect income equality it would take around 28 years at constant 7% growth for India to reach UK per capita purchasing power rates ) of course I would love to hear Bipat dispute the basic math).

I am interested in Bipats comments but in general why would there be a reason to doubt a middle class person if one defines by profession,and some criteria for material lifestyle in a similar way, wouldnt be better off in India ? .
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Old Mar 15th 2019, 6:12 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth what is described as "middle class" whether in UK or India is open to different definitions.

Within middle classes there will be great differences in income and situations.

In India as I said above differences between those living in major cities and those in rural towns.

Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----

For example middle class and wealthy in India may not own a car ---not because they can't afford to buy but because other means of transport are more convenient.
Even differences between cities----in Mumbai ---taxis ordered within minutes-----Pune, Chennai more difficult. I don't know any 'middle class' in the latter that don't own a car(s) but many in Mumbai that don't want one. Also the differences in bus and train availability-----Very few ---possibly none--- middle-class in Pune travel by bus, many in Chennai do.

Items again will vary according to where you live-----white goods in Chennai (from Singapore) less expensive more choice than other cities.

If you take food and clothes certainly far more purchasing power in India than in the UK. (EMR countrywide the majority don't even visit the massive malls let alone buy there).

Private schools------ both countries very expensive. I get the impression more make use of private schools in India but obviously don't have figures.

Morpeth -----I would think that you would accept that in both countries the professions are middle class. I can assure you that in general those in India have far more purchasing power than those in the UK and have a more comfortable life (although again it depends what you define as a 'comfortable life.)
​​​​​​
You are responding to a typographical error I made.I agree with most of what you are saying in this post, but I admit mainly from my general experience of having lived in third world countries rather than any study on the particular issue in any particular country

The the issue considering how low on a purchasing power basis India's GDP per capital is, I wonder what the income inequalty rate is.

.
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