India and the Wars

Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:29 am
  #706  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR --- do you read posts?
I have not referred to any "Book"!
I referred to classifed documents. I have said nothing about the contents of the documents.
Why did you bother to post the link then.
Wasting everyone's time, not for the first time..

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:43 am
  #707  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR

Why did you bother to post the link then.
Wasting everyone's time, not for the first time..
I was replying to your 'twin' -Morpeth. He seemed to appreciate the link!

EMR-- BE is not 'compulsory', if you think it is a "waste of your time'' don't read posts.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:44 am
  #708  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

I was replying to your 'twin' -Morpeth. He seemed to appreciate the link!

EMR-- BE is not 'compulsory', if you think it is a "waste of your time'' don't read posts.
You posted a link you had not read or bothered to do any background research on.
Explains so much about you...

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:52 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR

You posted a link you had not read or bothered to do any background research on.
Explains so much about you...
How can you possibly know what I read or what 'back ground research', I did?
It is you, that misread the post but never, ever do you admit you are wrong!

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:56 am
  #710  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
How can you possibly know what I read or what 'back ground research', I did?
It is you, that misread the post but never, ever do you admit you are wrong!
Do you agree with what's was in the link, if so why , what background research did you do to validate your opinion..

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 9:23 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR

Do you agree with what's was in the link, if so why , what background research did you do to validate your opinion..
EMR -there has been so much discussion regarding the death of Netaji, Nehru, the meeting with Hitler/the connection with Russia etc.
This Forum is not the place to deal with it.
I think the link is largely accurate. However Attlee probably had many reasons and more than just in this link.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 9:31 am
  #712  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

EMR -there has been so much discussion regarding the death of Netaji, Nehru, the meeting with Hitler/the connection with Russia etc.
This Forum is not the place to deal with it.
I think the link is largely accurate. However Attlee probably had many reasons and more than just in this link.
​​​​​​
That does not answer the question I asked does modern Indian history record the atrocities by the Japanese against Indian soldiers and civilians that may have influenced those who chose to join the INA.
Better collaborating than dieing in Japanese hands.
Does modern Indian history suggest that the harsh treatment of those who fought for the Japanese was influenced by the appalling treatment of allied prisoners including Indians by the Japanese
Or does modern Indian history only seek to make hero's of those who collaborated with the Axis.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 10:35 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
​​​​​​
1)That does not answer the question I asked does modern Indian history record the atrocities by the Japanese against Indian soldiers and civilians that may have influenced those who chose to join the INA.
Better collaborating than dieing in Japanese hands.
2) Does modern Indian history suggest that the harsh treatment of those who fought for the Japanese was influenced by the appalling treatment of allied prisoners including Indians by the Japanese
3)Or does modern Indian history only seek to make hero's of those who collaborated with the Axis.
1) Yes.
2) I don't know.
3) No.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 11:03 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

1) I was trying to explain to you the meaning of "justification".

2) Morpeth the words 'similar' and 'same' have different meanings.

We were specifically discussing Goa-----the people who were the 'same' ethnicity, families, communities as those outside the borders.

The were ruled by a foreign power which had no connection with them whatsoever, the fact that this was made/called legal by other foreign powers does not justify the situation. They were being made use of.

Morpeth you persist in mentioning Nazis.
Nazi Germany occupied parts of France during the last war---If they had won that war ---would that occupation then have been legal?? The German people were a lot closer in ethnicity with the French than the Portuguese were with the Konkan coastal Goans!!!!! We are discussing a tiny area of land.

You describe me as akin to Hitler and Putin, for approving freedom for a small group of people to rule themselves.
So were those outsiders who approved the 'Quit India' movement also akin to Nazis and Putin? ]

You use the word "racist"-----for not wanting foreign rule????

On the contrary I would use the word for those who justify/approve of the actions of those who went around the world exploiting and making use of others, at the same time treating them as 'inferiors' and then refusing to leave.
1) I was trying to explain to you the meaning of "justification".

Why ? You see terribly confused- saying India invades territory by force doesn’t mean they were or were not justified.

2) 2) Morpeth the words 'similar' and 'same' have different meanings.



Unlike you I do try wherever possible to be precise or use words that I believe are defensible. Since I haven’t studied in any detail the composition and nature of the people next door to Goa it seemed appropriate word to use. And – yet again- my issue was simple - India used force as have other powers in the subcontinent. Why that has generated post after post of you trying to avoid a simple fact is interesting to say the least.

We were specifically discussing Goa-----the people who were the 'same' ethnicity, families, communities as those outside the borders



The discussion was whether India used for force ( it did (b) violated international law and its commitments to the UN charter or public promises ( it did). You are the one who brings up that India is justified using force on the subcontinent in your iand but no one else is.

The were ruled by a foreign power which had no connection with them whatsoever, the fact that this was made/called legal by other foreign powers does not justify the situation. They were being made use of.



Actually as far as I know India signed the UN charter as with other countries, and Nehru publicly promised not to use force. Second, technically India was a foreign power as the Indian state didn’t exist when Portugal too over Goa. Third, I wasnt discussing nor have I been whether India’s actions were justified or not- just that India in Goa, Hyderabad Kashmir uses force just as other powers have done for thousands of years in India



Morpeth you persist in mentioning Nazis.
Nazi Germany occupied parts of France during the last war---If they had won that war ---would that occupation then have been legal?? The German people were a lot closer in ethnicity with the French than the Portuguese were with the Konkan coastal Goans!!!!! We are discussing a tiny area of land.




At least three times I have specifically mentioned the Nazi’s taking over German-ethnic areas which had only recently been taken away from them Their justification was equal if not a lot more than an elite-led north Indian government that had never controlled Goa marching in to take it over- but your justification the same

You describe me as akin to Hitler and Putin, for approving freedom for a small group of people to rule themselves.



Freedom ? What on earth are you talking about – Goa wasn’t made free t was taken over.


So were those outsiders who approved the 'Quit India' movement also akin to Nazis and Putin? ]



What on earth are you referring to ? We were discussing the use of armed force on the subcontinent to takeover territory without having a referendum if the people being taken over wished to be or not be part of the Indian state.

You use the word "racist"-----for not wanting foreign rule????



You have on several occasions brought up that the Portuguese or British for that after where white ruling brown people, and apparently you have no problem if brown people take same actions, or the Mughals, or those who oppressed in centuries past the Dravidians. Seems to be a racist viewpoint but maybe you don’t realize how racist it appears.



Even more illogical, one of your reasons for opposition to British re was they didn’t intermarry- as if that could remotely justify the overall rule or not.

On the contrary I would use the word for those who justify/approve of the actions of those who went around the world exploiting and making use of others, at the same time treating them as 'inferiors' and then refusing to leave.



You may wish to read some general history books, this type of thing has been going on throughout history and throughout the world. Some rulers beneficial, some not so much, some not at all- simply history and can be looked at whether approving or not. That is the difference- your closed mind doesn’t admit the different possibilities then look for evidence-- you make up your mind first, or dream up nonsense like Tharoor.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 11:15 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Morpeth ----You know two!! Indian families. Yes the poverty in India is 'different' to that in the UK. Poor people are not 'clones'; there are different degrees, different types, different reasons for poverty in any one area.
I have repeatedly said the Governments have been too slow since 1947 to reduce poverty. It has speeded up in the last few years -----I have seen it!!!!! That doesn't mean that there is not a long way to go.

2) I did not say "Prone to work"----I said "equality and opportunity".

3) The link contained FACTS.

4) You are repeating yourself----I have said reducing the inherited poverty could have been quicker.
Bipat, you put a lot of store on first-hand views, I jut mentioned to recent observations by Indians themselves and their offspring.You can try all you want to waltz around the subject, but the poverty in India is on a whole different scale than poverty in the UK. I suspect one of the reasons for this is middle and upper class Indians having the same attitude as you or being de-sensitized to it.

You missed the point, I said simply if I were looking at the situation ,which I haven't in any detail, I would make as the main criteria whether woman are safer and happier. as opposed to opportunity in the workplace.

I agree the poverty in India could have been reduced faster with better economic policies the past decades, less prestige projects and wasteful expenditure and corruption.Even you cant blame that on anyone else except the Indians themselves. I quite agree economic growth has improved a lot in recent years.
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Old Mar 11th 2019, 11:38 am
  #716  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

1) Yes.
2) I don't know.
3) No.
​​​​​

WHY do you think the above ?

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 12:21 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth

1)
Unlike you I do try wherever possible to be precise or use words that I believe are defensible. Since I haven’t studied in any detail the composition and nature of the people next door to Goa it seemed appropriate word to use. And – yet again- my issue was simple - India used force as have other powers in the subcontinent. Why that has generated post after post of you trying to avoid a simple fact is interesting to say the least.

2) At least three times I have specifically mentioned the Nazi’s taking over German-ethnic areas which had only recently been taken away from them Their justification was equal if not a lot more than an elite-led north Indian government that had never controlled Goa marching in to take it over- but your justification the same

3) Freedom ? What on earth are you talking about – Goa wasn’t made free t was taken over.

4) What on earth are you referring to ? We were discussing the use of armed force on the subcontinent to takeover territory without having a referendum if the people being taken over wished to be or not be part of the Indian state.

5) You have on several occasions brought up that the Portuguese or British for that after where white ruling brown people, and apparently you have no problem if brown people take same actions, or the Mughals, or those who oppressed in centuries past the Dravidians. Seems to be a racist viewpoint but maybe you don’t realize how racist it appears.

6) You may wish to read some general history books, this type of thing has been going on throughout history and throughout the world. Some rulers beneficial, some not so much, some not at all- simply history and can be looked at whether approving or not. That is the difference- your closed mind doesn’t admit the different possibilities then look for evidence-- you make up your mind first, or dream up nonsense like Tharoor.

1) As you say, you haven't studied the people 'next door' to Goa but you still put forward your fixed ideas.
Morpeth, you are somewhat arrogant when you are replying to someone who not only has a home "next door", whose children are descendants of those in Goa and those ''next door'' to Goa etc etc. Knowing people who travelled to their FAMILY temples when this was allowed. Knowing people who fled south from Goa.

The Portuguese having refused to negotiate and leave, force was the only option.
Why should the people of Goa not have the same privileges as the rest of India?
By your reasoning the British should still rule the entire India!!!

2) As the Indian Government had only managed to get its own independence 14 years previously it didn't really have the chance to "control" or share administration with Goa did it????

3) Goa was not 'taken over', no one moved into Goa from outside, the Portuguese left, so also did the Indian navy.
The Goans were then able to vote in their own Ministers. They were FREE to sort out their own economy. They had the choice of Statehood which they took.

4) They were already part of 'India'-----they were Indian!!!---- what else were they?-----Had they previously had a referendum to ask if they wished to be ruled by Portugal a country thousands of miles away.
Are you joining EMR in the idea that Indians were not Indian until 1947??

5) I was trying to point out that in a way that even you could understand that the Portuguese were a distant people. Like your twin EMR you are equating the happenings of 2000 years ago and centuries ago with the situation in 1947 and 1961.
Morpeth don't talk to me about 'racism'---I have restrained myself from saying it previously but your posts certainly give that impression regarding your own views both on this thread and your views on non-EU migrants to the UK, that of the inferiority of non-Western people.

6) "You may wish to read some general history books"!!!!------As I have said before 'how patronising can you get'? I have been reading history books for decades!!!
Again you mention Tharoor-----As I told you I haven't read his book. Some reviews describe it as 'simplistic', that is different from "nonsense".
I told YOU to read the books and reports in the bibliography.

We are not on this thread discussing "throughout history" we are discussing the 20th century.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 12:51 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat, you put a lot of store on first-hand views, I jut mentioned to recent observations by Indians themselves and their offspring.You can try all you want to waltz around the subject, but the poverty in India is on a whole different scale than poverty in the UK. I suspect one of the reasons for this is middle and upper class Indians having the same attitude as you or being de-sensitized to it.

You missed the point, I said simply if I were looking at the situation ,which I haven't in any detail, I would make as the main criteria whether woman are safer and happier. as opposed to opportunity in the workplace.

I agree the poverty in India could have been reduced faster with better economic policies the past decades, less prestige projects and wasteful expenditure and corruption.Even you cant blame that on anyone else except the Indians themselves. I quite agree economic growth has improved a lot in recent years.

You gave the views of two families !!!!! Morpeth we live with poor people, their lives are not separate as they are in the UK, we are with them everyday. How dare you say we are de-sensitized to it! We do what we can for those around us --note--- I said 'around us'--- 'with us'--- not separated in council housing estates.

Morpeth surely even you can see that the scale of poverty in a population of a billion will be higher than a population of 65 million.
You never seem to believe the level of poverty that existed in 1947!!

Regarding women---again you make an arrogant assumption "without looking in detail"-----how do you know that opportunity and equality doesn't make a woman happy? Not just in 'the work place' but in all types of work---more airline pilots, doctors, vets, lawyers, business women, politicians at all levels etc etc.
If you read the statistics in the link I put women are safer in India than in the USA and UK regarding sexual assault.









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Old Mar 11th 2019, 1:03 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
[​​​​

WHY do you think the above ?
EMR you have mixed up many of the above quotes. I noticed too late to edit them.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:20 pm
  #720  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR you have mixed up many of the above quotes. I noticed too late to edit them.

Quotes are not messed up.
Can you provide me with references to support your Yes, No statements..
Does India , do some in India regard those who did not collaborate with the Japanese as collaborators with the British.?
More to the point how balanced is the teaching of history in India?
As you know much is now being questioned in the UK, not the FACTS but past atitudes towards them..

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