Originally Posted by why (Post 4976272)

i was raised Cof E and spent lots of my childhood in magnificent old churches... i loved it but didn't take much in... as an adult i read lots of stuff, the bible doesn't do it for me really as a "rule book" some of it is common sense, some history (may be a bit distorted) but if it is the world of the "omnipotent" being then it really doesn't make any sense at all.

may be i just haven't "seen the light".. though i do pray every day....

Originally Posted by Sally (Post 4976217)

Many times on this thread you have answered a question with a question.

Originally Posted by iPom (Post 4976028)

I don't understand your explanation. IMO, it's fairly simple. You die, the body goes into the ground, it goes no-where... knows nothing and that's that.
There IS no spirit... spirit and soul... as you probably know... are two different things in biblical teaching ... So which do you mean? Look it up ... it's VERY different.

We are not spirit beings... Angels are, according to the bible, but humans are not.

So if our soul goes anywhere... (show me in the bible where it talks about souls going to heaven and I'll be your friend forever) where does it go?

And regardless of you not being Anglican, I would expect any person claiming to be Christian to know the Nicene creed. It's up there with the Lord's prayer. If you don't know it, smack yourself this instant. ;)
I was merely using the Anglican example because it's said at every Evensong (3pm, Liverpool Anglican Cathedral) on a Sunday. I can actually say it backwards... Now that's fun.

So seeing as we're here, let's talk about the soul.

Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

And if we really want to discuss what a soul is, let's look at the second Genesis creation story...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice when god breathed life into Adam, he became a living soul ... At no point does it say that God PUT a soul INTO Adam!

You do not have a ghost-like immortal soul that survives your physical death. Life is what makes you a soul. Without life you perish.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Death returns you to the dust, in a totally unconscious state. Nothing survives after death.


Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


And then we have Jesus's own words on death... apparently. I'm sure you know this:

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


My point was that the body dies. At no point does the bible say it goes to heaven. Once Jesus comes again, everyone gets resurrected and as a result, the soul once more exists... according to the bible.

It is the Catholic church which believe that the soul lingers on (my time spent being engaged to an ex Catholic priest was highly educational) ;)

They particularly like this verse:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And then, there's the whole 1 Corinthians thing (I quite like 1 Corinthians) ...

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen...

So, has Jesus come again? 1 Corinthians tells us he hasn't.

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I like that one. ;)

And just for fun, let's have one of my favourite bible verses, because it's so funny, yet has nothing to do with the subject...

It's Daniel, Ch.5, v6

'Then the king's countenance was changed in him, and his thoughts troubled him; and the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.'

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Ever seen the movie, 'The Hand'?

:rofl:

Originally Posted by ipom

So, has Jesus come again? 1 Corinthians tells us he hasn't.

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is also vain.

I like that one. ;)

Originally Posted by iPom (Post 4976269)

Well most of this happens in the OT, and yet most mainstream religion only uses the NT for purpose ...

Handy that, innit? ;)

Can I just say, Arkon, I absolutely LOVE this thread. In fact, I don't think I've ever had so much fun on BE.
:)

Originally Posted by arkon (Post 4976321)

yes it's not bad, keeps my grey matter ticking, no easy task here. Just a shame JAJ dropped out, he seemed to know what he was talking about even though I didn't believe a word of it. Thanks to wren too, You have reinforced what I see as the religious mind set, You never actually answer the questions, just spin a load of tosh from the bible and hand it out as 'There you are proof' says so in the bible.

Thanks to Hutch too, Never thought I'd agree with him on anything, just goes to show you. I'm amazed this thread didn't turn into a slagging match on page 3, I thought you were never supposed to talk about religion.

Anyway time for bed to dream of peircings, rotting flesh, goughed eyes, burnt flesh....Hey do you think the bible was really written by Stephen King?

Night night all.

Originally Posted by northerner (Post 4976311)

First of all ipom, when did I ever claim to be a Christain? Please quote me. I'm just someone who has read a little more of the Bible than Arkon (meant in the nicest possible way) and who has unanswered questions but who has grasped that there is a loving God, and also that a guy called Jesus walked this earth who has a lot to answer for ;)

Originally Posted by Sally (Post 4976342)

Night Arkon.

Originally Posted by arkon (Post 4976372)

Can't get away....Must leave....back tommorrow. Maybe, God permitting....

Originally Posted by arkon (Post 4976321)

Thanks to wren too, You have reinforced what I see as the religious mind set, You never actually answer the questions, just spin a load of tosh from the bible and hand it out as 'There you are proof' says so in the bible

Originally Posted by northerner (Post 4976311)

First of all ipom, when did I ever claim to be a Christain? Please quote me.

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4976293)

Hutch, what I am saying is lets hear what you have to say about the reason for suffering etc. Or is it that you don't have any answers?

Originally Posted by Hutch (Post 4976200)

...God made us --> We do evil --> God does not intervene --> God is playing golf...

Originally Posted by rodders39 (Post 4977801)

Ah, think I'm getting the hang of this God thing now... Does anyone think if I do plenty of grovelling he'll help me get my handicap down a bit...? It's been stuck at 5 for a fair few years now and it's really bugging me... :)

Originally Posted by annqldau (Post 4978183)

:rofl:... so what was Noah and his ark a bit of over watering at the third hole???

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4976095)

Have read all the posts and haven't seen one yet in that there is a reasonable arguement against there being a god. All I've seen so far is intense hostility and objection to the possibility that there may be a god.