Originally Posted by Wol (Post 4975232)

And then there's the question of how do the stillborn end up in heaven? Those who die in childhood? Are they condemned to eternity just as they were when they died? Because, if they are not, their adult "history" is fictional.

You can't win any argument with the religious by posing these unanswerable questions - the sophisticated jesuit type have all sorts of arguments honed through the ages which - to them at least - dispose of your objections, and the rest just smile sweetly and accept that god knows best and it's not right to question him or his purpose.

Originally Posted by iPom (Post 4975169)

LOL.

Yes, the purpose being at the point where Jesus shows up, he re-unites the soul with said bodies and off they toddle to his house, where presumably they have a few beers.

If Jesus did come in 1914, and created his new world order, then in my opinion, he did a fairly lousy job of it.
Failure to plan properly.

Very poor. ;)

Originally Posted by esperanza (Post 4975425)

What about if you're cremated?

Originally Posted by esperanza (Post 4975425)

What about if you're cremated?

Originally Posted by arkon (Post 4975485)

Have you guys noticed when you post a good, solid argument against the bible or God, you don't get a reply and if you do it's all mumbo jumbo and hard to argue against because it's all so woolly.

Originally Posted by iPom (Post 4975130)

People who die do not go to heaven, do not become angels, but they wait in the ground until they are 'raised up' ...

Jesus talks about the 'last day' in John 6, where it's linked with the resurrection of the dead...

Sure, it's not called the 'second coming' in the bible, but it is called a number of other things, the principle understanding being that the dead remain here on the earth and at the point of the return of Jesus, they are 'raised up' with him where they will live in his 'house forever' ... (That's in John 14.3)

As far as I know, no-where in the bible does it say that the dead go to heaven.

Originally Posted by iPom (Post 4975130)

I mean, it's so mainstream, it's slap bang at the end of the Nicene creed, which I'm sure you'd be fairly familiar with, especially if you were worshipping at an Anglican church.

Originally Posted by arkon (Post 4974302)

Comment. Ok. Just because you think the bible is very well researched and even if I were to believe every story in the bible as the truth, and what I mean by the truth is that it is indeed written when it says by who said it etc. It could very well be 100% accurate, but that doesn't mean what it's writing about is true. When the bible says something like "And God spoke unto xxxx" what does that prove? How do you know god spoke to him? All it is is an account of hearsay. I'm not explaining too well I know so here goes again...

If I were to say to John, I've spoken to god an he says...'insert some wisdom here'... John subsequently writes up my conversation with god in a book called the bible. after 2000 years of picking and dissecting the story, theologians prove catagorically that yes I did indeed say what god told me to John and he did in turn write it all down perfectly. This still does not prove that god did actually speak to me! Just that I thought he had, was I mad, delusional, Schitzo or what?

I hope that explained my problem with all your proof, if it proves anything, it proves the story tellers recanted a story correctly, not that the substance of the stories are true, especially when so much of the bible seems to be made up of 'God says.....'

Sorry I just need to add, even courts nowadays do not count hearsay as proof or evidence.

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4975673)

Jesus would die a humiliating death Psalm 22, Isiah 53 involving....

Rejection Isiah 53:3 John 1:10-11

Betrayal by a friend Psalm 41:9 Luke 22:3-4, John 13:18

Be mocked Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31

Be beaten Isiah 52:14 Matthew 27:30

His side be pieced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34

Piercing of his hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:31

Be crucified with thieves Isiah 53:12 Luke 23:34

No broken bones Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36

Rise from the dead Psalm 16:10 Mark 16:6 Acts 2:31

Ascend to Heaven Psalm 68:18 Acts 1:9


I can understand where you are coming from with the whole "rantings of a mad man" etc, but the very fact that these prophecies are fulfilled 100's of years later speaks volumes does it not?


How about you come up with a convincing arguement that these are not prophecies?

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4975673)

We are able to research the historical and archaeological findings to decide if the bible was written when/where it claims to have been written. I think that fact has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4975673)

Below are a list of some of the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus... the New Testament link beside them for your cross reference ;)

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4975673)

The very fact that these prophecies are fulfilled 100's of years later speaks volumes does it not? How about you come up with a convincing arguement that these are not prophecies?

Originally Posted by wren (Post 4975673)

His side be pieced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34

Originally Posted by Hutch (Post 4975860)

Ermmm ... hold on Tonto.

We've already come up with 50 convincing arguments in this thread, which you've completely ignored. I know 'faith' is blind ... but you're not doing yourself any favours.