2016 Election
Feb 17th 2016, 1:31 pm
#4637
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 13,270
Re: 2016 Election
I think (way back in the thread, it's true) there was quite a lot of discussion about Hillary and her strange facility for self-immolation. She is, patently, not a good campaigner, having been out in front in 2008 until relatively late in the process, and now having been widely assumed to be the candidate-in-waiting, she's finding that she can't get the primary voters motivated on her side.
However, I'm not so sure it's that Hillary is a bad candidate. Bernie Sanders has captured the public imagination on the Left in much the same way that several people (not necessarily including The Donald, I think that's a whole different ball game - thinking more of first Carson then Cruz) have done on the right.
A Sanders presidency would quite possibly be the best thing to happen to the USA for a very long time. If only because it would be such an absolute shock to the Republican Right that the party might completely implode within the next election cycle and reinvent itself as a functional organization rather than the fractious and fractured mess it is right now. But I think he would fail in a general election largely because he has laid himself open to ideological attack right from the word go; and the GOP machine will lay into him with unparalleled force all the way from the convention to the general election.
Clinton would, of course, be more of the same old same-old. Despite all the posturing and bleating, she's not going to be indicted or impeached or otherwise prevented from taking up office if she's elected. She may not be squeaky-clean, but if there was anything genuine in all the so-called scandals and endless Congressional enquiries then something would probably have actually stuck to her by now. She was, from the perspective of an outside observer, a competent Secretary of State, her grasp of foreign affairs is not really in any serious doubt and she actually seems to have trodden a path in office that was not really objectionable to either the D or R side of the aisle, drawing ire and opposition only really as a matter of form from her political opponents - even over the Benghazi thing, nobody has ever landed a punch except because they think they ought to have been throwing one. I strongly suspect she would be an equally competent, if unexciting, president.
One reason, of course, that this thread has concentrated on the GOP side is that the battle is so much more interesting (and amusing) to watch. The fact that the field is still so very full is telling in itself. In how many previous cycles have there still been this many people standing this far into the process?
The persistence of Trump is concerning: for all his rhetoric and bluster, he doesn't actually appear to have any policy platforms beyond "build a wall." He also seems to be quite a long way divorced from the truth in a lot of his pronouncements. Cruz, as has been discussed here at length, is genuinely frightening to a lot of people: he's so into the social conservatism kick that it's hard to reconcile his views on individual freedoms with his determination to limit those freedoms when they disagree with his world view. Rubio has positioned himself quite effectively as bridging the gap from the conservative base to the moderates, but he does seem to be a bit weak when put on the spot in debates: that doesn't bode well for a head-to-head performance in a general election. Kasich and Jeb!!! are harmless enough. Either could make a competent president, but neither is a particularly outstanding candidate. I still wouldn't be surprised to see Jeb! come from behind and take the nomination. After a lacklustre start, he seems to be gathering momentum, albeit rather too gradually to be spectacular.
It does seem a lot like deja vu all over again, but I think it's more than likely we'll see a Bush vs Clinton general election, this time with a narrow victory to Clinton.
However, I'm not so sure it's that Hillary is a bad candidate. Bernie Sanders has captured the public imagination on the Left in much the same way that several people (not necessarily including The Donald, I think that's a whole different ball game - thinking more of first Carson then Cruz) have done on the right.
A Sanders presidency would quite possibly be the best thing to happen to the USA for a very long time. If only because it would be such an absolute shock to the Republican Right that the party might completely implode within the next election cycle and reinvent itself as a functional organization rather than the fractious and fractured mess it is right now. But I think he would fail in a general election largely because he has laid himself open to ideological attack right from the word go; and the GOP machine will lay into him with unparalleled force all the way from the convention to the general election.
Clinton would, of course, be more of the same old same-old. Despite all the posturing and bleating, she's not going to be indicted or impeached or otherwise prevented from taking up office if she's elected. She may not be squeaky-clean, but if there was anything genuine in all the so-called scandals and endless Congressional enquiries then something would probably have actually stuck to her by now. She was, from the perspective of an outside observer, a competent Secretary of State, her grasp of foreign affairs is not really in any serious doubt and she actually seems to have trodden a path in office that was not really objectionable to either the D or R side of the aisle, drawing ire and opposition only really as a matter of form from her political opponents - even over the Benghazi thing, nobody has ever landed a punch except because they think they ought to have been throwing one. I strongly suspect she would be an equally competent, if unexciting, president.
One reason, of course, that this thread has concentrated on the GOP side is that the battle is so much more interesting (and amusing) to watch. The fact that the field is still so very full is telling in itself. In how many previous cycles have there still been this many people standing this far into the process?
The persistence of Trump is concerning: for all his rhetoric and bluster, he doesn't actually appear to have any policy platforms beyond "build a wall." He also seems to be quite a long way divorced from the truth in a lot of his pronouncements. Cruz, as has been discussed here at length, is genuinely frightening to a lot of people: he's so into the social conservatism kick that it's hard to reconcile his views on individual freedoms with his determination to limit those freedoms when they disagree with his world view. Rubio has positioned himself quite effectively as bridging the gap from the conservative base to the moderates, but he does seem to be a bit weak when put on the spot in debates: that doesn't bode well for a head-to-head performance in a general election. Kasich and Jeb!!! are harmless enough. Either could make a competent president, but neither is a particularly outstanding candidate. I still wouldn't be surprised to see Jeb! come from behind and take the nomination. After a lacklustre start, he seems to be gathering momentum, albeit rather too gradually to be spectacular.
It does seem a lot like deja vu all over again, but I think it's more than likely we'll see a Bush vs Clinton general election, this time with a narrow victory to Clinton.
Feb 17th 2016, 1:33 pm
#4638
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,449
Re: 2016 Election
As much as you hate Hillary, I hate Cruz times one million. 
I am on record, in this very forum, as an anti-Cruz fanatic. Do a search --- I dare you. I started a thread years ago about this asshole and everybody was like, "Who the hell is Ted Cruz
?" ... Now he's threatening to take over the world. 
I am on record, in this very forum, as an anti-Cruz fanatic. Do a search --- I dare you. I started a thread years ago about this asshole and everybody was like, "Who the hell is Ted Cruz
?" ... Now he's threatening to take over the world.
Feb 17th 2016, 1:41 pm
#4639
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: 2016 Election
As much as you hate Hillary, I hate Cruz times one million.
I am on record, in this very forum, as an anti-Cruz fanatic. Do a search --- I dare you. I started a thread years ago about this asshole and everybody was like, "Who the hell is Ted Cruz ?" ... Now he's threatening to take over the world.
I am on record, in this very forum, as an anti-Cruz fanatic. Do a search --- I dare you. I started a thread years ago about this asshole and everybody was like, "Who the hell is Ted Cruz
?" ... Now he's threatening to take over the world.
Feb 17th 2016, 1:43 pm
#4640
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: 2016 Election
Even if Sanders became president (which he won't), he wouldn't get much done because the House will remain Republican. The US political system is designed to make change very difficult, and no Democrat can possibly do anything about that.
At this point, the primary upside of voting Democratic is defending and perhaps even realigning the Supreme Court. More justices can be expected to retire or die, and we certainly don't want a Republican to select them.
At this point, the primary upside of voting Democratic is defending and perhaps even realigning the Supreme Court. More justices can be expected to retire or die, and we certainly don't want a Republican to select them.
Feb 17th 2016, 1:52 pm
#4641
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,449
Re: 2016 Election
[Shortened Text]
Kasich and Jeb!!! are harmless enough. Either could make a competent president, but neither is a particularly outstanding candidate. I still wouldn't be surprised to see Jeb! come from behind and take the nomination. After a lacklustre start, he seems to be gathering momentum, albeit rather too gradually to be spectacular.
It does seem a lot like deja vu all over again, but I think it's more than likely we'll see a Bush vs Clinton general election, this time with a narrow victory to Clinton.
I shortened the post to this particular point because I was recently thinking over the same scenario myself, and I posted early in this thread about it, about Bush v Clinton. I still haven't been dissuaded from the notion even though Jeb's performance confuses me. A lot of pundits are writing him off.
Feb 17th 2016, 2:28 pm
#4644
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: 2016 Election
Yeah, I would be surprised if it didn't go exactly this way. I've been made a little less convinced because everything has been so Bizzaro World so far. However, I still mostly believe that she'll get the nomination. I generally predict the races fairly accurately but question myself and have a crisis of confidence as my own neurosis requires.
But to suggest that we don't criticize Hillary on this thread, as FA has done, is bonkers.
But to suggest that we don't criticize Hillary on this thread, as FA has done, is bonkers.
Feb 17th 2016, 4:07 pm
#4645
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,106
Feb 17th 2016, 5:29 pm
#4646
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: 2016 Election
What a sad time we live in where a sensible, even headed egalitarian like Sanders is considered radical (I know this isn't you saying that per se, of course).
In reality, he's not that far removed from FDR, who is high in the rankings as far as best president in history goes. His policies are fair, make sense and would in reality be beneficial for everyone. Americans just seem to be too scared of a level playing field.
In reality, he's not that far removed from FDR, who is high in the rankings as far as best president in history goes. His policies are fair, make sense and would in reality be beneficial for everyone. Americans just seem to be too scared of a level playing field.
Feb 18th 2016, 4:23 am
#4647
I love my brick!
Joined: May 2007
Location: Peachy
Posts: 9,304
Re: 2016 Election
This is great! Trump vs. the Pope!
Pope Frank calls out Trump saying he's not a Christian if he wants to build walls.
Trump responds with: Frank would be praying for a Trump presidency if ISIS attacks the Vatican.
The only way this could be better is if it was via Twitter.
Pope Frank calls out Trump saying he's not a Christian if he wants to build walls.
Trump responds with: Frank would be praying for a Trump presidency if ISIS attacks the Vatican.
The only way this could be better is if it was via Twitter.
Last edited by zargof; Feb 18th 2016 at 4:30 am.
Feb 18th 2016, 4:27 am
#4648
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: 2016 Election
What a sad time we live in where a sensible, even headed egalitarian like Sanders is considered radical (I know this isn't you saying that per se, of course).
In reality, he's not that far removed from FDR, who is high in the rankings as far as best president in history goes. His policies are fair, make sense and would in reality be beneficial for everyone. Americans just seem to be too scared of a level playing field.
In reality, he's not that far removed from FDR, who is high in the rankings as far as best president in history goes. His policies are fair, make sense and would in reality be beneficial for everyone. Americans just seem to be too scared of a level playing field.
Whacking the big corporations with heavy taxes will only succeed in making even more and more of them locate offshore
What we have is Sanders on one end telling us fairy stories and Trump on the other end doing the same. There's no sense of reality in any of it
As for FDR he was President of a country that bears little resemblance of what it is today
Last edited by dc koop; Feb 18th 2016 at 4:37 am.
Feb 18th 2016, 4:34 am
#4649
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: 2016 Election
This is great! Trump vs. the Pope!
Pope Frank calls out Trump saying he's not a Christian if he wants to build walls.
Trump responds with: Frank would be praying for a Trump presidency if ISIS attacks the Vatican.
The only way this could be better is if it was via Twitter.
Pope Frank calls out Trump saying he's not a Christian if he wants to build walls.
Trump responds with: Frank would be praying for a Trump presidency if ISIS attacks the Vatican.
The only way this could be better is if it was via Twitter.
Most Mexicans would rather stay in their country. It's only the miserable way of life created by a miserable government that forces them to head north in desperation
Last edited by dc koop; Feb 18th 2016 at 4:39 am.
Feb 18th 2016, 4:36 am
#4650
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: 2016 Election
There's nothing wrong in what he says are his agendas. The only thing I have a big problem with is how is he going to pay for it all? Where's the money coming from? If you were to tax every billionaire in the country 70 percent and raise the tax level of every American making over 200 K to 25 percent it still wouldn't cover half the cost.
Whacking the big corporations with heavy taxes will only succeed in making even more and more of them locate offshore
What we have is Sanders on one end telling us fairy stories and Trump on the other end doing the same. There's no sense of reality in any of it
Whacking the big corporations with heavy taxes will only succeed in making even more and more of them locate offshore
What we have is Sanders on one end telling us fairy stories and Trump on the other end doing the same. There's no sense of reality in any of it
At least, for now anyway, he's the only one talking about ideas that will make the situation in America better for everyone. Even if this is all for naught (and I hope it isn't), surely he's at the very least sown the seeds for some positive changes down the line.
