Gibraltar
May 21st 2014, 5:27 am
#1396
On the road again.
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: On Top of the World
Posts: 17,507
May 21st 2014, 6:04 am
#1397
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Gibraltar
The residents of Gibraltar have every right to determine their own future just has Spain has every right to behave as it determines on its own territory ie the border.
May 21st 2014, 6:27 am
#1398
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Gibraltar
what do you think the feelings are of all those Spaniards with lucrative jobs on the rock who get delayed every morning and every evening ??
May 21st 2014, 6:39 am
#1399
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
With regard to the border queues - that is not the situation.
Firstly, it is not 'the Gibraltarians' who are being mostly inconvenienced by this, it doesn't affect them much, it is the Spanish workers of La Linea closely followed by the many hundreds of expats who live in the Campo de Gibraltar and work on the rock (I know many of them) whose lives are being made unnecessarily difficult.
Secondly, the border controls are no tougher than they have ever been, they have just been reorganised to cause maximum misery. They are pulling over no more cars/bikes/pedestrians than they ever were they are just, on frequent occasions, refusing to let anyone else through - making them wait while they are dealing with the people they have stopped. They gain nothing from it other than causing totally unnecessary delay. They even on occasion just stop anyone crossing for long periods - no searches, no reason - just stop.
Also, the recently built Alcaidesa Marina in La Linea clearly violates the 'disputed' (as you call them) waters, note that no-one but Spain thinks there is any dispute. As is pointed out in the piece you linked to, Spain has not consulted with Gibraltar in that or any other works which affect Gibraltar waters and has itself built many such reefs.
Firstly, it is not 'the Gibraltarians' who are being mostly inconvenienced by this, it doesn't affect them much, it is the Spanish workers of La Linea closely followed by the many hundreds of expats who live in the Campo de Gibraltar and work on the rock (I know many of them) whose lives are being made unnecessarily difficult.
Secondly, the border controls are no tougher than they have ever been, they have just been reorganised to cause maximum misery. They are pulling over no more cars/bikes/pedestrians than they ever were they are just, on frequent occasions, refusing to let anyone else through - making them wait while they are dealing with the people they have stopped. They gain nothing from it other than causing totally unnecessary delay. They even on occasion just stop anyone crossing for long periods - no searches, no reason - just stop.
Also, the recently built Alcaidesa Marina in La Linea clearly violates the 'disputed' (as you call them) waters, note that no-one but Spain thinks there is any dispute. As is pointed out in the piece you linked to, Spain has not consulted with Gibraltar in that or any other works which affect Gibraltar waters and has itself built many such reefs.
If Gibraltar finds problems in sourcing its workforce then maybe it will think again about friendlier relations with its neighbour.
In what other way was Spain supposed to react to Picardo's Putinesque annexation of the disputed waters ? What would have been the next project ? Extension of the runway way out into the bay ?
Now I have to ask you for sources as to "the recently built Alcaidesa Marina in La Linea clearly violates the 'disputed' (as you call them) waters".
I agree with you Spain has built many such reefs, and they are environmentally sound if built in the correct places. Gibraltar's is placed in the enclosed setting of Gibraltar bay, which has been shown to have toxic waters from the Gibraltarian as well as the Spanish sides of the bay. It is in a place which blocks off the waters between the La Linea harbour wall and the runway, the rocks of which it is built on already provide a huge area of fish friendly crevices. Next time you're down there, take a look. By blocking off or altering the tidal flows there, the area will become more brackish and detrimental to the fish. The reef will actually become counter-productive.
Go stand on the La Linea harbour wall and smell it on a still evening.
It also attracts seabirds to the end of the runway.
The only way that dumping the concrete blocks there makes any sense, is if it is the prelude to reclaiming the waters to the east of the reef for hundreds of millions if not billions of pounds worth of real estate as they are beginning to do on the East side.
First Gibraltar must aquire title to the disputed waters, and who could object to an environmentally friendly fish reef there ? Once it has been accepted as Gibraltar's project, it can be found to be counter-productive as I've said and reclamation work can begin.
Only the Spanish aren't having it.
Source: Me.
May 21st 2014, 6:59 am
#1400
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
I'm sure the Spanish are happy to have the British on the Rock, as it means the Royal Navy will be there to help face the growing threat from the south and east of Spain in Islam.
May 21st 2014, 8:45 am
#1401
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: Gibraltar
If the crossing times are inconveniencing the people that live in Spain and work in Gibraltar, I have only the message "MOVE TO GIBRALTAR". In the same way, I have no sympathy with people who commute two hours there and back to London, or those people who stand in commuter cattle trucks for an hour or so. It's a lifestyle choice.
If Gibraltar finds problems in sourcing its workforce then maybe it will think again about friendlier relations with its neighbour.
In what other way was Spain supposed to react to Picardo's Putinesque annexation of the disputed waters ? What would have been the next project ? Extension of the runway way out into the bay ?
Now I have to ask you for sources as to "the recently built Alcaidesa Marina in La Linea clearly violates the 'disputed' (as you call them) waters".
I agree with you Spain has built many such reefs, and they are environmentally sound if built in the correct places. Gibraltar's is placed in the enclosed setting of Gibraltar bay, which has been shown to have toxic waters from the Gibraltarian as well as the Spanish sides of the bay. It is in a place which blocks off the waters between the La Linea harbour wall and the runway, the rocks of which it is built on already provide a huge area of fish friendly crevices. Next time you're down there, take a look. By blocking off or altering the tidal flows there, the area will become more brackish and detrimental to the fish. The reef will actually become counter-productive.
Go stand on the La Linea harbour wall and smell it on a still evening.
It also attracts seabirds to the end of the runway.
The only way that dumping the concrete blocks there makes any sense, is if it is the prelude to reclaiming the waters to the east of the reef for hundreds of millions if not billions of pounds worth of real estate as they are beginning to do on the East side.
First Gibraltar must aquire title to the disputed waters, and who could object to an environmentally friendly fish reef there ? Once it has been accepted as Gibraltar's project, it can be found to be counter-productive as I've said and reclamation work can begin.
Only the Spanish aren't having it.
Source: Me.
If Gibraltar finds problems in sourcing its workforce then maybe it will think again about friendlier relations with its neighbour.
In what other way was Spain supposed to react to Picardo's Putinesque annexation of the disputed waters ? What would have been the next project ? Extension of the runway way out into the bay ?
Now I have to ask you for sources as to "the recently built Alcaidesa Marina in La Linea clearly violates the 'disputed' (as you call them) waters".
I agree with you Spain has built many such reefs, and they are environmentally sound if built in the correct places. Gibraltar's is placed in the enclosed setting of Gibraltar bay, which has been shown to have toxic waters from the Gibraltarian as well as the Spanish sides of the bay. It is in a place which blocks off the waters between the La Linea harbour wall and the runway, the rocks of which it is built on already provide a huge area of fish friendly crevices. Next time you're down there, take a look. By blocking off or altering the tidal flows there, the area will become more brackish and detrimental to the fish. The reef will actually become counter-productive.
Go stand on the La Linea harbour wall and smell it on a still evening.
It also attracts seabirds to the end of the runway.
The only way that dumping the concrete blocks there makes any sense, is if it is the prelude to reclaiming the waters to the east of the reef for hundreds of millions if not billions of pounds worth of real estate as they are beginning to do on the East side.
First Gibraltar must aquire title to the disputed waters, and who could object to an environmentally friendly fish reef there ? Once it has been accepted as Gibraltar's project, it can be found to be counter-productive as I've said and reclamation work can begin.
Only the Spanish aren't having it.
Source: Me.
. So 7000 subsistence workers from La Linea are suddenly going to move into Gibraltar where the basic apartments start at 1000 pounds a month and rapidly rise to 3000 pounds per month. I don't think so. It ain't that easy. These are poor people who don't have the same options as us.I repeat, the waters are not disputed. If they were Spain would have gone to arbitration as requested.
Here is a source (there are others) about the Alcaidesa marina.
I notice you have not provided the source of the 'Warship tied up to protect the reef ' claim.
If the waters are so polluted and toxic, why would the Spanish fishing boat (there was only one - the Divina Providencia) want to fish there? By the way the blocks were submerged - they don't block any water flow - they only stop illegal sea-bed raking.
Gibraltar already 'has the title' to its waters - all maritime territories do. The only way the 'title' might be strengthened I suppose, is by going to arbitration but, as already stated, Spain won't.
May 21st 2014, 1:23 pm
#1402
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Land of no recession
Posts: 10,721
Re: Gibraltar
When the Alcaidesa marina was built Spain diverted a storm drain so it discharged on the Gib side of the breakwater and no longer into tbe area now occupied by the marina.
When standing on the breakwater what you can smell is the sewage that is illegally discharged into the stormdrain.
Nice to have environmentally aware neighbours isn't it
When standing on the breakwater what you can smell is the sewage that is illegally discharged into the stormdrain.
Nice to have environmentally aware neighbours isn't it
May 21st 2014, 5:19 pm
#1403
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
Rigghhtt. So 7000 subsistence workers from La Linea are suddenly going to move into Gibraltar where the basic apartments start at 1000 pounds a month and rapidly rise to 3000 pounds per month. I don't think so. It ain't that easy. These are poor people who don't have the same options as us.
I repeat, the waters are not disputed. If they were Spain would have gone to arbitration as requested.
Here is a source (there are others) about the Alcaidesa marina.
I notice you have not provided the source of the 'Warship tied up to protect the reef ' claim.
If the waters are so polluted and toxic, why would the Spanish fishing boat (there was only one - the Divina Providencia) want to fish there? By the way the blocks were submerged - they don't block any water flow - they only stop illegal sea-bed raking.
Gibraltar already 'has the title' to its waters - all maritime territories do. The only way the 'title' might be strengthened I suppose, is by going to arbitration but, as already stated, Spain won't.
. So 7000 subsistence workers from La Linea are suddenly going to move into Gibraltar where the basic apartments start at 1000 pounds a month and rapidly rise to 3000 pounds per month. I don't think so. It ain't that easy. These are poor people who don't have the same options as us.I repeat, the waters are not disputed. If they were Spain would have gone to arbitration as requested.
Here is a source (there are others) about the Alcaidesa marina.
I notice you have not provided the source of the 'Warship tied up to protect the reef ' claim.
If the waters are so polluted and toxic, why would the Spanish fishing boat (there was only one - the Divina Providencia) want to fish there? By the way the blocks were submerged - they don't block any water flow - they only stop illegal sea-bed raking.
Gibraltar already 'has the title' to its waters - all maritime territories do. The only way the 'title' might be strengthened I suppose, is by going to arbitration but, as already stated, Spain won't.
This was revealed as an RN hoax last year.
It is in fact a crack in the screen. If you freeze frame on the map you will see the crack to the right of the red line disappear up western beach and across the isthmus to the edge of the screen.
Do you honestly think the UN would adopt a line that bears no relationship to the geography and seems to have been drawn by someone on acid with the wrong foot ?
The article says the GBC referred this to the Convent. What was the reply ?
Can I see your other sources ?
May 21st 2014, 6:44 pm
#1404
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: Gibraltar
I'll have a look after I've walked the dogs but I must say you seem to be nit-picking on one particular point. Can I conclude that you have conceded all the others? I'm particularly interested in this request to tie up a Royal Navy warship.
May 21st 2014, 6:54 pm
#1405
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
BE is a hobby for me, at the moment, not a way of life. I have another life, same as yourself.
When crossing swords with a skilled debater such as you, thought needs to be given to the questions, and time taken to answer them.
I have conceded nothing.
May 21st 2014, 8:24 pm
#1406
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Gibraltar
I am interested in where the RN is going to get another warship from.
There are really few enough to go round as it is.
All that will happen is the Gibraltar Squadron of 2 LPV's and 3 RHIB's will be manned for longer giving them more sea time availability.
And it is fine saying that they will double the crew members so they can be around 24hrs a day - but the ships need time off as well for maintenance etc.
http://en.mercopress.com/2014/05/21/...ish-incursions
As to providing staff to carry out monitoring of the Russians visiting Spanish North Africa, Gib has been an Electronic Warfare listening post for decades being closer to the action than the GDY's in Rota who IIRC are not supposed to do such things which would upset the Spanish.
There are really few enough to go round as it is.
All that will happen is the Gibraltar Squadron of 2 LPV's and 3 RHIB's will be manned for longer giving them more sea time availability.
And it is fine saying that they will double the crew members so they can be around 24hrs a day - but the ships need time off as well for maintenance etc.
http://en.mercopress.com/2014/05/21/...ish-incursions
As to providing staff to carry out monitoring of the Russians visiting Spanish North Africa, Gib has been an Electronic Warfare listening post for decades being closer to the action than the GDY's in Rota who IIRC are not supposed to do such things which would upset the Spanish.
May 21st 2014, 8:54 pm
#1407
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
Rigghhtt. So 7000 subsistence workers from La Linea are suddenly going to move into Gibraltar where the basic apartments start at 1000 pounds a month and rapidly rise to 3000 pounds per month. I don't think so. It ain't that easy. These are poor people who don't have the same options as us.
Yes, you would have thought that the Gibraltar Government would have put the needs of its 7000 workforce over and above the desperate need for a fish reef, but more than a year on, here we are.
I repeat, the waters are not disputed. If they were Spain would have gone to arbitration as requested.
The Spanish Government only recognises British sovereignty over the Rock. It considers the Gibraltar Government to be only a British local council. That is why it objects every time Gibraltar tries to register itself as a separate entity in international organisations (e.g. UEFA). Spain will only go to arbitration with Britain.
It is Gibraltar that has asked for arbitration. Spain will not deal with them.
Gibraltar could claim half of Valencia and say that its claim is undisputed because it knows full well Spain will not go to arbitation with it.
The British Government also refuses to go to arbitation because it is not convinced of the outcome.
By arrangement between Britain and Spain the waters remain disputed.
Here is a source (there are others) about the Alcaidesa marina.
I've addressed this in another post
I notice you have not provided the source of the 'Warship tied up to protect the reef ' claim.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/call-to-send-warship-to-gibraltar.22858317
Google 'Gibraltar calls for warship' for many others.
If the waters are so polluted and toxic, why would the Spanish fishing boat (there was only one - the Divina Providencia) want to fish there? By the way the blocks were submerged - they don't block any water flow - they only stop illegal sea-bed raking.
Beats me why the Spanish want to fish there, I wouldn't touch any seafood from the Algeciras Bay area.
The Gibraltarians must make their minds up, is it a environmentally friendly fish reef or a deliberate obstruction ?
Gibraltar already 'has the title' to its waters - all maritime territories do. The only way the 'title' might be strengthened I suppose, is by going to arbitration but, as already stated, Spain won't.
Britain has no title to the lower half of the isthmus, therefore it has no title to the waters on either side.
. So 7000 subsistence workers from La Linea are suddenly going to move into Gibraltar where the basic apartments start at 1000 pounds a month and rapidly rise to 3000 pounds per month. I don't think so. It ain't that easy. These are poor people who don't have the same options as us.Yes, you would have thought that the Gibraltar Government would have put the needs of its 7000 workforce over and above the desperate need for a fish reef, but more than a year on, here we are.
I repeat, the waters are not disputed. If they were Spain would have gone to arbitration as requested.
The Spanish Government only recognises British sovereignty over the Rock. It considers the Gibraltar Government to be only a British local council. That is why it objects every time Gibraltar tries to register itself as a separate entity in international organisations (e.g. UEFA). Spain will only go to arbitration with Britain.
It is Gibraltar that has asked for arbitration. Spain will not deal with them.
Gibraltar could claim half of Valencia and say that its claim is undisputed because it knows full well Spain will not go to arbitation with it.
The British Government also refuses to go to arbitation because it is not convinced of the outcome.
By arrangement between Britain and Spain the waters remain disputed.
Here is a source (there are others) about the Alcaidesa marina.
I've addressed this in another post
I notice you have not provided the source of the 'Warship tied up to protect the reef ' claim.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/call-to-send-warship-to-gibraltar.22858317
Google 'Gibraltar calls for warship' for many others.
If the waters are so polluted and toxic, why would the Spanish fishing boat (there was only one - the Divina Providencia) want to fish there? By the way the blocks were submerged - they don't block any water flow - they only stop illegal sea-bed raking.
Beats me why the Spanish want to fish there, I wouldn't touch any seafood from the Algeciras Bay area.
The Gibraltarians must make their minds up, is it a environmentally friendly fish reef or a deliberate obstruction ?
Gibraltar already 'has the title' to its waters - all maritime territories do. The only way the 'title' might be strengthened I suppose, is by going to arbitration but, as already stated, Spain won't.
Britain has no title to the lower half of the isthmus, therefore it has no title to the waters on either side.
Last edited by two tubes of toothpaste; May 21st 2014 at 8:57 pm.
May 21st 2014, 10:27 pm
#1408
`
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 38,629
Re: Gibraltar
May I help a little with quoting ?
I may help a little with quoting.
It's an issue here and there all over BE. No worries. It can just get a little confusing over who is saying what.
I think I may help a little with quoting.
Did I just mention that? Ignore me. I may tweak here and there and help with this.
Otherwise ignore me. I quite like it that way.
I may help a little with quoting.
It's an issue here and there all over BE. No worries. It can just get a little confusing over who is saying what.
I think I may help a little with quoting.
Did I just mention that? Ignore me. I may tweak here and there and help with this.
Otherwise ignore me. I quite like it that way.
May 21st 2014, 10:39 pm
#1409
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 400
Re: Gibraltar
May I help a little with quoting ?
I may help a little with quoting.
It's an issue here and there all over BE. No worries. It can just get a little confusing over who is saying what.
I think I may help a little with quoting.
Did I just mention that? Ignore me. I may tweak here and there and help with this.
Otherwise ignore me. I quite like it that way.
I may help a little with quoting.
It's an issue here and there all over BE. No worries. It can just get a little confusing over who is saying what.
I think I may help a little with quoting.
Did I just mention that? Ignore me. I may tweak here and there and help with this.
Otherwise ignore me. I quite like it that way.
I know how to quote, but I considered this the best way to answer this post point by point, without having to cut and paste quote/unquote all the time.
If it causes confusion for anyone, get back to me.
May 21st 2014, 10:45 pm
#1410
`
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 38,629
Re: Gibraltar
Up to you of course.
