EMR

Regarding the question of the rights or wrong of following orders the Nazi war trial bought into international law the the defnece of " only following orders " is not a justifiable defence .
The actions against the French fleet had two purposes 1) the primary one to deny Germany use of the French fleet but secondly to impress the USA that there was nothing that the UK would not in its fight for freedom.

MikeJ

Only partially true. The Nuremburg Defence is not a sole defence for war crimes, however, given that we are not at war with Spain (AFAIK) then??
Obeying orders is fundamental to good order and discipline in the armed forces.

two tubes of toothpaste

Point taken.

However, why are we debating what would happen at the lowest level of command, when the amendment to the Rules of Engagement are very unlikely to be authorised by the cabinet - in order to suit Fredbargate's "solution".

Domino

what is this "Fredbargate's "solution""

what he said was (my bolding)

this is a hypothetical "conundrum". But if he is policing an area with a set of Rules of Engagement then when he comes across a vessel breaking International Law and they are advised they are in the wrong but still carry on he would be able to fire warning shots to desist. If the other vessel should fire at his ship then he would be able to fire back. Usually this would not be at personnel in the first instance but at superstructure or hull.

Afaik this hasn't been shown on the documentary progs about the RN but on several occasions in the fictional RAN "Sea Patrol" where they seem to have more "incidents" than the RN ever has.

An RN (and/or Commonwealth) warship commanding officer has one overriding thing to remember. His ship. He has TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE responsibility for it. He actually signs a receipt for it when he takes up command.

two tubes of toothpaste

I refer you to #1160 on this thread, which you replied to on #1165.

It starts "My Solution".

Fredbargate

This is still my solution and as I see it the only workable solution because Spain cannot accept the treaties she has signed nor will she conform to any future treaties or agreements. That is her mentality.

However because I doubt whether the Chicken Livered Cameron and his goons would ever implement such policies ( bring back Maggie ) I will not be voting conservative or liberal in the forthcoming EU election

two tubes of toothpaste

As you say, the British Government, will not be party to such lunacy. I suspect the Labour party would follow suit.

I mean, this is quite apart from the ridiculous notion of dropping a letter in the post to NATO giving notice that Britain is going to open fire on a treaty partner ! An attack on one is an attack on all, even if from inside NATO.

As to your not voting Conservative, you have expressed your preference for UKIP often enough on other threads, and the voters of Gibraltar vote socialist almost to the man.

The fact that Cameron flew practically directly overhead of Gibraltar for his Easter hols in Lanzarote (not Portugal, France, Italy, Greece...) is a clear signal to First Minister Fabian Picardo that Britain has reached the limit of it's patience with Gibraltar and that it is time to rip out the concrete blocks from disputed waters.

The reason this whole rumpus started.

Fredbargate

Not very good at facts are you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...28Gibraltar%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...28Gibraltar%29

two tubes of toothpaste

Gibraltar General Election 2011

Gibraltar Socialist Labour Party/Liberal Alliance - 48.88%, 10 members

Gibraltar Social Democats - 46.76% - 7 members

PDP - 4.36%

More accurate than you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...#2011_election

Fredbargate

GSLP 85,414 GSD 81,721 that looks like almost to a man with less than 50% of the vote.

Plus you have to go back over 20 years to get another GSLP victory

MikeJ

The concrete blocks are NOT in disputed waters - the are clearly in Gibraltar waters according to UN conventions. The only bit that is in dispute - and Gibraltar doesn't seem to be making as big a deal of it as Rajoy is about the concrete blocks - is the Marina that Spain has built part of which is clearly on Gibraltar side of the International boundary.

jimenato

We've been in and out of Gibraltar almost monthly for the last 15 years or so. The rumpus precedes the concrete blocks by a long, long way.

BEVS

That's what I thought. Actually,it is what I know. I am of a certain age.

Also, even I know these blocks are not in disputed waters. They are in Gib waters.

So. I am now confused Two Tubes of Toothpaste. What is your actual point of reference please. I don't get it. Are you Spanish?

FWIW. It's no lunacy at all to protect what is yours. I do see however that assorted governments are protecting other governments (people) within the EU. Better the devil you know sometimes.

Ergo, it is a deflection tactic from current Spanish problems perhaps & one which the UK government is unwilling to deal with head on because of it's own precarious hold.

As it stands , a skirmish worked for Thatcher. It could work for this lot. The difference being is that hands are tied because of the EU.

Call me naive

Fredbargate

It also precedes you by a very long way Si.

The first permanent settlers on the Rock of Gibraltar were the Moors, Muslims who arrived from North Africa in the beginning of the eighth century. They used the area as a base from which to launch an invasion of the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.[4] The Spanish Reconquista began later in the eighth century. The campaign eventually took 800 years to force the Moors back across the Strait, and did not reach the Bay of Gibraltar until the fourteenth century.[5] It was not until 1309, nearly 600 years after Gibraltar was first settled, that the first siege of Gibraltar was recorded. King Ferdinand I of Castile began a siege of Algeciras on the other side of the bay in July, but his naval blockade was unable to stop supplies being smuggled in small boats from Gibraltar to the besieged city. He sent an army under Alonso Pérez de Guzmán to take Gibraltar. De Guzmán succeeded after a month-long siege, and Gibraltar was settled by the Castilians for the first time. Six years later, the Moors attempted to retake the peninsula in the brief second siege which was abandoned at the sight of a Castilian relief force. Another Moorish attempt eventually succeeded in the third siege of February–June 1333. A Castilian attempt to retake it in the fourth siege of June–August 1333 failed, as did the fifth siege of 1349–50, in which King Alfonso XI of Castile lost his life in an outbreak of bubonic plague among the besiegers. The Moors of Granada and Fez fell out with each other over Gibraltar in 1411, leading to the Granadans besieging the fortified town in the sixth siege and seizing it from the Marinids of Fez. Enrique Pérez de Guzmán, 2nd Count de Niebla made a failed attempt to capture Gibraltar in the seventh siege of 1436, during which he perished.[6]

The Moorish presence in Gibraltar ended in 1462, when Enrique's son Juan Alonso de Guzmán, 1st Duke of Medina Sidonia captured it after the eighth siege. What followed was a bitter dispute over the rights to the fortress. The Duke of Medina Sidonia claimed Gibraltar as his own, making a mortal enemy of Juan Ponce de León, Count of Arcos, but Henry IV of Castile declared it crown property shortly afterwards and so began a civil war.[7] Henry was deposed in effigy in 1465 by a council of nobles who proclaimed as king his half-brother Alfonso. Gibraltar's ninth siege took place after Medina Sidonia persuaded Alfonso to grant him the fortress, following which the Duke sent an army to storm the town. Henry's governor held out for fifteen months before finally surrendering in July 1467. Medina Sidonia's grandson, the third duke Juan Alfonso Pérez de Guzmán, was responsible for Gibraltar's tenth siege (and, as it happened, its last for 200 years). Queen Isabella I again declared Gibraltar crown property in 1501, but her death three years later left Castile in turmoil, prompting Medina Sidonia to take advantage of the kingdom's weakness. He assembled an army and marched on Gibraltar in the hope that the city would simply open its gates to him, but it did not, forcing him to lay siege to it instead; he abandoned the attempt after three months.[6]

Of course this article does not include the Neanderthals who really should be called Gibraltarians because they were discovered in Gibraltar 8 years before the discovery in Neanderthal

Fredbargate

All is well the Geordies have come to our defence

HMS Blyth