Gibraltar
Apr 26th 2014, 10:40 pm
#1186
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Re: Gibraltar
Our friendly neighbours have really got their knickers in a twist this morning
Royal Gib Police @RGPolice
#GibFrontier in the last 30 minutes, 6 cars have crossed in to Spain. EQT is now at 2 hours.
Obviously do not want the Gibbos to cross over and spend their money on Workers' Memorial Day, possibly because very few Spaniards will ever have any memories of working
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Memorial_Day
Royal Gib Police @RGPolice
#GibFrontier in the last 30 minutes, 6 cars have crossed in to Spain. EQT is now at 2 hours.
Obviously do not want the Gibbos to cross over and spend their money on Workers' Memorial Day, possibly because very few Spaniards will ever have any memories of working
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Memorial_Day
Apr 26th 2014, 10:50 pm
#1187
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Re: Gibraltar
[QUOTE=Domino;11236084]but if he gets it wrong doesn't pay any penalty - so where is the responsibility ??
If he or she gets it wrong, and it is found that the minister has acted against the law of the land, he or she could go to prison. That is why the Home Secretary complies with the law immediately once a judge has told them that deporting a certain individual is illegal.
In the case of the Royal Navy opening fire on a Spanish police boat in Gibraltar waters, each minister must question whether the act might be considered a war crime, and whether they might go to prison for life.
Many private prosecutions have been taken out against Tony Blair for taking the country to war illegally. I'm not sure if any were successful, but he was spotted on the Costa del Sol a few weeks back.
If he or she gets it wrong, and it is found that the minister has acted against the law of the land, he or she could go to prison. That is why the Home Secretary complies with the law immediately once a judge has told them that deporting a certain individual is illegal.
In the case of the Royal Navy opening fire on a Spanish police boat in Gibraltar waters, each minister must question whether the act might be considered a war crime, and whether they might go to prison for life.
Many private prosecutions have been taken out against Tony Blair for taking the country to war illegally. I'm not sure if any were successful, but he was spotted on the Costa del Sol a few weeks back.
Apr 26th 2014, 11:00 pm
#1188
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Re: Gibraltar
Bit of a quandary we have here
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
Apr 26th 2014, 11:30 pm
#1189
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Re: Gibraltar
Bit of a quandary we have here
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
Would it be a civilian ship breaking international law or would it be a destroyer bent on landing commandos ?
Naval officers are chosen for their intellectual abilities and are expected to know the difference between a war crime and a lawful order. The Naval officer has the option of claiming unlawful order if the incident comes to Courts Martial.
You must remember that before it even gets to this level the policy must pass through the Cabinet, the Chiefs of Staff, the Admiralty, and the upper echelons of the Naval Staff. The Naval officer at the lowest level would have had the decision to commit a war crime taken out of his hands long before then.
Apr 26th 2014, 11:45 pm
#1190
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Re: Gibraltar
Bit of a quandary we have here
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
We hypothetically have a Naval officer who has been given orders by his superiors to fire on vessels who are breaking international law and who have been warned that they will be fired on if they repeat the International Crime.
Now if this Officer refuses to carry out those orders he will be subject to Court Martial and also if he does carry out his orders he may be taken to the Old Bailey and charged with murder
I think the number 22 comes in somewhere.
Apr 26th 2014, 11:57 pm
#1191
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Re: Gibraltar
You have only made it a quandary by not supplying the details of why fire needed to be opened.
Would it be a civilian ship breaking international law or would it be a destroyer bent on landing commandos ?
Naval officers are chosen for their intellectual abilities and are expected to know the difference between a war crime and a lawful order. The Naval officer has the option of claiming unlawful order if the incident comes to Courts Martial.
You must remember that before it even gets to this level the policy must pass through the Cabinet, the Chiefs of Staff, the Admiralty, and the upper echelons of the Naval Staff. The Naval officer at the lowest level would have had the decision to commit a war crime taken out of his hands long before then.
Would it be a civilian ship breaking international law or would it be a destroyer bent on landing commandos ?
Naval officers are chosen for their intellectual abilities and are expected to know the difference between a war crime and a lawful order. The Naval officer has the option of claiming unlawful order if the incident comes to Courts Martial.
You must remember that before it even gets to this level the policy must pass through the Cabinet, the Chiefs of Staff, the Admiralty, and the upper echelons of the Naval Staff. The Naval officer at the lowest level would have had the decision to commit a war crime taken out of his hands long before then.
Apr 27th 2014, 12:17 am
#1193
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Gibraltar
You have only made it a quandary by not supplying the details of why fire needed to be opened.
Would it be a civilian ship breaking international law or would it be a destroyer bent on landing commandos ?
Naval officers are chosen for their intellectual abilities and are expected to know the difference between a war crime and a lawful order. The Naval officer has the option of claiming unlawful order if the incident comes to Courts Martial.
You must remember that before it even gets to this level the policy must pass through the Cabinet, the Chiefs of Staff, the Admiralty, and the upper echelons of the Naval Staff. The Naval officer at the lowest level would have had the decision to commit a war crime taken out of his hands long before then.
Would it be a civilian ship breaking international law or would it be a destroyer bent on landing commandos ?
Naval officers are chosen for their intellectual abilities and are expected to know the difference between a war crime and a lawful order. The Naval officer has the option of claiming unlawful order if the incident comes to Courts Martial.
You must remember that before it even gets to this level the policy must pass through the Cabinet, the Chiefs of Staff, the Admiralty, and the upper echelons of the Naval Staff. The Naval officer at the lowest level would have had the decision to commit a war crime taken out of his hands long before then.
it has been proven in many cases that CM's are outside legal jurisprudence - because you are assumed to be guilty and have to prove your innocence along with a huge bag of mitigating evidence
`
Apr 27th 2014, 12:20 am
#1194
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Re: Gibraltar
You obviously have only a sketchy knowledge of the chain of command and the rules of engagement. Whereas it would probably be very unwise to open fire on a GC vessel at the slightest provocation then there could well be circumstances where it would be lawful. I would hate to speculate what they may be because none of us has any idea what the RoE are for the Gibraltar squadron might be.
Operation Catapult and the attack on Mers-el-Kebir form the basis of my understanding, which will not have altered in essence to this day.
Apr 27th 2014, 12:28 am
#1195
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Re: Gibraltar
I assume "I was only obeying orders" is no longer a defence in CM.
Apr 27th 2014, 12:31 am
#1196
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Re: Gibraltar
I agree entirely with what you have written, even down to admitting I do have a sketchy knowledge of the chain of command and the rules of engagement.
Operation Catapult and the attack on Mers-el-Kebir form the basis of my understanding, which will not have altered in essence to this day.
Operation Catapult and the attack on Mers-el-Kebir form the basis of my understanding, which will not have altered in essence to this day.
and he wasn't even there
perhaps EMR will lend you one of the books from his library
Apr 27th 2014, 12:51 am
#1197
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Re: Gibraltar
It also describes the interaction between the various levels in the Royal Navy where the policy of bombarding an ally of only days before, caused enormous consternation and questioning.
I suppose there are some who feel that history can teach us nothing.
Apr 27th 2014, 4:55 am
#1198
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Re: Gibraltar
Churchill gives a good account of how the Cabinet arrived at the decision to attack Mers-el-Kebir, which many in France consider to have been a war crime.
It also describes the interaction between the various levels in the Royal Navy where the policy of bombarding an ally of only days before, caused enormous consternation and questioning.
It also describes the interaction between the various levels in the Royal Navy where the policy of bombarding an ally of only days before, caused enormous consternation and questioning.
we also have to understood that there are also many contemporary reports of sailors who cried at doing what they were ordered to do.
Much of this could be laid at the door of Darian who shut down communications with the British but was known to be issuing instructions to his ship commanders.
The take over of the French ships in Alexandria was almost totally bloodless.
over 1000 brave men died because their commanders didn't communicate and appear to have been like a rabbit in the lights of a car. Were their loyalties stretched ??
Apr 27th 2014, 5:24 am
#1199
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Re: Gibraltar
then we have to assume you understood that Britain had to ensure that in the event of France surrendering to Germany that the large, relatively modern, and dangerous capital ships of the French navy didn't become the property of Germany, which would have closed off the Med and effectively finished the war in that theatre if not completely.
we also have to understood that there are also many contemporary reports of sailors who cried at doing what they were ordered to do.
Much of this could be laid at the door of Darian who shut down communications with the British but was known to be issuing instructions to his ship commanders.
The take over of the French ships in Alexandria was almost totally bloodless.
Most importantly what have you learnt ?? Those who know what happened, read the contemporary reports and the books giving accurate and diverging historical reports already understand the need. It isn't nice, but history is littered with many similar incidents over the ages. The French weren't exactly renowned after WWI and subsequently for playing a straight game.
over 1000 brave men died because their commanders didn't communicate and appear to have been like a rabbit in the lights of a car. Were their loyalties stretched ??
we also have to understood that there are also many contemporary reports of sailors who cried at doing what they were ordered to do.
Much of this could be laid at the door of Darian who shut down communications with the British but was known to be issuing instructions to his ship commanders.
The take over of the French ships in Alexandria was almost totally bloodless.
Most importantly what have you learnt ?? Those who know what happened, read the contemporary reports and the books giving accurate and diverging historical reports already understand the need. It isn't nice, but history is littered with many similar incidents over the ages. The French weren't exactly renowned after WWI and subsequently for playing a straight game.
over 1000 brave men died because their commanders didn't communicate and appear to have been like a rabbit in the lights of a car. Were their loyalties stretched ??
Well written Domino !
Why do you assume I have a different point of view from yourself over this ? I too understand the importance of the Royal Navy destroying that part of the French fleet to stop it joining up with the Germans.
I too have heard of "many contemporary reports of sailors who cried at doing what they were ordered to do".
I have also heard too of British sailors being buried in France with the Union flag and the Tricolor side-by-side on the coffin even after the tragedy of Mers-el-Kebir.
The point I was making was in reply to Fredbargate's imaginary Naval officer and what he was ordered to do in Gibraltar waters. Mers-el-Kebir provides a great example where the whole of the Navy involved could and did question the decisions taken at a higher level and that it was only at the express insistence of Churchill and his cabinet that the operation was carried out.
There is no doubt in my mind about the righteousness of the operation once all the alternatives had been turned down by the French.
Last edited by two tubes of toothpaste; Apr 27th 2014 at 5:29 am.
Apr 27th 2014, 8:03 pm
#1200
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Re: Gibraltar
Today is a Bank Holiday in Gibraltar.
Traditionally the locals would spend the day or even the weekend away in Spain or Portugal.
However the queues are restricting the appeal to cross over, at the moment 10.00 am it is estimated as a 2 hour queue.
However not all is doom and gloom.
The local restaurant and bar owners etc. are rubbing there hands in glee, they will be serving packed houses again.
Traditionally the locals would spend the day or even the weekend away in Spain or Portugal.
However the queues are restricting the appeal to cross over, at the moment 10.00 am it is estimated as a 2 hour queue.
However not all is doom and gloom.
The local restaurant and bar owners etc. are rubbing there hands in glee, they will be serving packed houses again.
