"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1hx57rl.1ujsmxw4g9m13N%[email protected]...
> William Black <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:49:45 GMT, "William Black"
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>And it's not so much that we've adopted curry but that the Indian
>> >>population
>> >>has adapted curry...
>> >
>> > both, i think. Ever since the Raj.
>> >
>> >>The stuff they serve in Indian Restaurants in the UK wouldn't be used
>> >>to
>> >>pebble-dash a house with in Bombay...
>> >
>> > people always say that sort of thing, how come I can go to places full
>> > of "indians" eating it?
>>
>> Goodness knows, they must have been born here.
>>
>> My wife, who is Indian, won't touch the stuff and neither will anyone
>> else
>> we know who comes from India.
>
> I know a lot of Indians, some longtime friends, (though have only spent
> a couple of months there) and it's not a complaint I've heard much. What
> I have heard, and what I certainly agree with, is that the huge range of
> cuisine which you can find in India is orthagonal to what you get in UK
> Indian restaurants.

Well I don't think that's quite the word I'd use.

India is vast and contains several distinct cultures. These cultures have
different cuisines and, as in Europe, there are huge regional differences
in how people cook.

The majority of chefs in 'Indian restaurants' in the UK come from a small
area in the Punjab, but the food they cook is often not of Punjabi origin.

Some examples: Dansak is an Irani/Parsee dish and native to those
communities, who mostly live in Bombay. Vindaloo was originally a hot
pickled pork dish from Goa and was invented by the Portuguese to enable them
to take food to eat on the long voyage home.

The dishes served in the UK bear little resemblance to their prototypes,
both of which I've tried in their home environment.

My problem is that the food I've eaten in India is far superior to that
served to me in the UK as Indian food. Perhaps it's the preparation time,
but all you ever get offered in Indian restaurants is just stews.

I'm not asking for the chef to spend six hours making Chicken Sharcoti, but
nobody ever offers things which cook quickly like seared fish steaks in
ritchard masala or fried chinaniaux (Mussels shallow fried in a hot semolina
batter) or even suca mutton (mutton fried in a masala coating) because
nobody seems to want them.

You have to ask why.

India is usually alive with young people from the UK wandering about
unsuitably dressed and some of them must make it back with a liking for the
real thing...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Make credence recognised that on Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:53:59 -0400,
Viking <[email protected]> has scripted:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:38:59 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
>_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
>>Viking <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:20:54 +0100, The Reid <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:08:37 -0400, Viking <[email protected]>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>>mushy peas are old fashioned, regional and very not popular, but
>>> >>>theres nothing particularly wrong with them. You will be lucky to fond
>>> >>>them in restros.
>>> >>
>>> >>Not the kind of cuisine that will earn you Michelin stars.
>>> >
>>> >neither is a sandwich, not sure what your point is.
>>>
>>> Read the thread. We were saying that the new cuisine hasn't trickled
>>> down to the avarage UK citizen yet. By way of agreeing, I said "Mushy
>>> peas, anyone?" The idea being that the average Briton is satisifed
>>> with more standard fare.
>>
>>What is the average briton, and what do they eat? It ain't mushy peas
>>around here, for sure. I haven't noticed it anywhere for ages. That
>>said, the average anyone is satisfied with 'more standard fare' IME.
>
>I think the point DFM was making is that standard UK fare hasn't
>changed much over the years.

I can't really make such a broad claim as that, as I first visited the
UK only 7 years ago. It's just that most of the food is crap, and all
of it is expensive.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:03:55 +0100, Keith Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:56:53 +0100, The Reid <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I bet my council estate was rougher than your council estate :-)
>
>You were lucky to live on 't council estate.
>
>We 'ad ter live in a tent in 't middle o' 't Tesco car-park. Breakfast
>were past-its sell-by-date bread that 'staff chucked out into 't
>rubbish-bin the night before, shat on by local pigeons and gnawed at
>by 't neighbourhood grey squirrels.
>
>You young 'uns 'ad it far too easy.

There's a row going on because Schiphol refuses to give a Dutch charity the
stuff confiscated from passengers by airport security, whilst Zaventem is happy
to give away this stuff.
--

Martin

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:51:03 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >> dunno, didnt you go to some unusual school in Finland or something or
> >> other and composing isnt exactly "street"
> >
> >I went to the local primary school, took piano lessons with the local
> >peripatetic teacher there, then auditioned for a specialist school where
> >I got in, and spent high school there. It was in Edinburgh- I've never
> >been to Finland.
>
> Edinburgh, that's it, near Finland. Youre half Norwegian though, was
> that it?
>
> No, I don't know why being half Norwegian might be posh, er, mate.
>
> If you're not posh why aint you Dave or Davy? :-)
>
> I bet my council estate was rougher than your council estate :-)

I bristle a bit at the equation of certain arts with 'poshness.' I just
heard the most extraordinary display on R4's today programm- a playback
of something from parliament yesterday, when two MP's in particular were
enquiring as to how much lottery arts funding was going to "toffs and
snobs." It was a display of classisim which I'd assumed had gone out of
fashion a while back. Obviously not. One, the Tooting MP, made the point
that as there were next to no galleries or theatres in his constituency,
his constituents didn't benefit much from lottery funding. I wonder how
much he's considered supporting creating some arts venues there? Or,
maybe the solution is just to remove all arts funding, so everyone's
equal. A Glasgow MP wanted to know how many of the trustees had been in
a council house. I found it all a bit depressing...

If it hadn't been for the music lessons I had at primary level, I'd
never have become a musician. What happens to kids academic performance
when they learn an instrument is startling (even when controlling for
SES), yet this government, despite their noisily orchestrated hype, have
done nothing to increase uptake of music in schools- quite the opposite
in fact.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:59:33 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

>The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:51:03 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
>> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>>
>> >> dunno, didnt you go to some unusual school in Finland or something or
>> >> other and composing isnt exactly "street"
>> >
>> >I went to the local primary school, took piano lessons with the local
>> >peripatetic teacher there, then auditioned for a specialist school where
>> >I got in, and spent high school there. It was in Edinburgh- I've never
>> >been to Finland.
>>
>> Edinburgh, that's it, near Finland. Youre half Norwegian though, was
>> that it?
>>
>> No, I don't know why being half Norwegian might be posh, er, mate.
>>
>> If you're not posh why aint you Dave or Davy? :-)
>>
>> I bet my council estate was rougher than your council estate :-)
>
>I bristle a bit at the equation of certain arts with 'poshness.' I just
>heard the most extraordinary display on R4's today programm

I thought you were going to refer to "Middle class kids are all stupid the
parents say it is dyslexia, but they are just stupid."
--

Martin

On Apr 25, 10:51 pm, "William Black" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:1hx57rl.1ujsmxw4g9m13N%[email protected] .uk...
>
>
>
> > William Black <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> "The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]. ..
> >> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:49:45 GMT, "William Black"
> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>And it's not so much that we've adopted curry but that the Indian
> >> >>population
> >> >>has adapted curry...
>
> >> > both, i think. Ever since the Raj.
>
> >> >>The stuff they serve in Indian Restaurants in the UK wouldn't be used
> >> >>to
> >> >>pebble-dash a house with in Bombay...
>
> >> > people always say that sort of thing, how come I can go to places full
> >> > of "indians" eating it?
>
> >> Goodness knows, they must have been born here.
>
> >> My wife, who is Indian, won't touch the stuff and neither will anyone
> >> else
> >> we know who comes from India.
>
> > I know a lot of Indians, some longtime friends, (though have only spent
> > a couple of months there) and it's not a complaint I've heard much. What
> > I have heard, and what I certainly agree with, is that the huge range of
> > cuisine which you can find in India is orthagonal to what you get in UK
> > Indian restaurants.
>
> Well I don't think that's quite the word I'd use.
>
> India is vast and contains several distinct cultures. These cultures have
> different cuisines and, as in Europe, there are huge regional differences
> in how people cook.
>
> The majority of chefs in 'Indian restaurants' in the UK come from a small
> area in the Punjab, but the food they cook is often not of Punjabi origin.
>
> Some examples: Dansak is an Irani/Parsee dish and native to those
> communities, who mostly live in Bombay. Vindaloo was originally a hot
> pickled pork dish from Goa and was invented by the Portuguese to enable them
> to take food to eat on the long voyage home.
>
> The dishes served in the UK bear little resemblance to their prototypes,
> both of which I've tried in their home environment.
>
> My problem is that the food I've eaten in India is far superior to that
> served to me in the UK as Indian food. Perhaps it's the preparation time,
> but all you ever get offered in Indian restaurants is just stews.
>
> I'm not asking for the chef to spend six hours making Chicken Sharcoti, but
> nobody ever offers things which cook quickly like seared fish steaks in
> ritchard masala or fried chinaniaux (Mussels shallow fried in a hot semolina
> batter) or even suca mutton (mutton fried in a masala coating) because
> nobody seems to want them.
>
> You have to ask why.
>
> India is usually alive with young people from the UK wandering about
> unsuitably dressed and some of them must make it back with a liking for the
> real thing...
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

veg. thali for 15 quid......hmmm that'll be one of those UK
bargains.....

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:59:33 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> I bet my council estate was rougher than your council estate :-)
>
>I bristle a bit at the equation of certain arts with 'poshness.'

surely not :-)

> I just heard the most extraordinary display on R4's today programm- a playback
>of something from parliament yesterday, when two MP's in particular were
>enquiring as to how much lottery arts funding was going to "toffs and
>snobs." It was a display of classisim which I'd assumed had gone out of
>fashion a while back. Obviously not. One, the Tooting MP, made the point
>that as there were next to no galleries or theatres in his constituency,
>his constituents didn't benefit much from lottery funding. I wonder how
>much he's considered supporting creating some arts venues there? Or,
>maybe the solution is just to remove all arts funding, so everyone's
>equal. A Glasgow MP wanted to know how many of the trustees had been in
>a council house. I found it all a bit depressing...

I missed that, had to drive Carol to Petts Wood (see below). Its
common to see quality equated with snobbery. Some on the food group
equate shopping in Waitrose with snobbery. The same thinking would
apply to the arts.
Intelligent people do things like what we do
Intelligent people tend to have more money
worthwhile things attract funding
snobs exist (by neccesity) amoungst the previledged

Some people then draw the conclusion that they can pool all these
things and that therefore funding of arts is for snobs and toffs. I
suppose its over generalisation.

In the case of Waitrose some are convinced people shop there to be
seen as posh, when in fact they shop there because the expereince,
choice etc suits them (presumably some people shop there to be seen,
although it seems bizarre to me).

>If it hadn't been for the music lessons I had at primary level, I'd
>never have become a musician. What happens to kids academic performance
>when they learn an instrument is startling

Yes, I would instinctivlt tend to believe that

>(even when controlling for
>SES), yet this government, despite their noisily orchestrated hype, have
>done nothing to increase uptake of music in schools- quite the opposite
>in fact.

and impose from the centre too much anyway.

BTW
Its national walk to work day today. Gods being ironic I think. He has
sent the first heavy rain in a month or so and the trains into Charing
X and London Bridge are not running due to a major fire. Expect plaque
of frogs.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:51:04 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>India is vast and contains several distinct cultures. These cultures have
>different cuisines and, as in Europe, there are huge regional differences
>in how people cook.

those of us who take an interest in food (or even casually pick up an
Indian cookbook) know this nowadays.

>The majority of chefs in 'Indian restaurants' in the UK come from a small
>area in the Punjab, but the food they cook is often not of Punjabi origin.

and often the men cooked, where the women cooked back home.

>Some examples: Dansak is an Irani/Parsee dish and native to those
>communities, who mostly live in Bombay. Vindaloo was originally a hot
>pickled pork dish from Goa and was invented by the Portuguese to enable them
>to take food to eat on the long voyage home.

I know.
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/curry3.htm"

I think a lot of chefs here have reverse engineered it, not wanting to
use pork and thinking that the aloo part of the name means potato when
in fact it means garlic from Portuguese. I favour red wine vinegar
over white, I don't know if that's "authentic", but does it matter?

>The dishes served in the UK bear little resemblance to their prototypes,
>both of which I've tried in their home environment.

but that doesn't mean they are rubbish. They are just different. Its
just British curry. Some things evolved from the raj, Kedgeree, IPA or
mulligatawny, others more recently like CTM. Many early curry houses
catered for the bottom end of the market with bits of meat in a few
standard sauces. That largely changed as the Indian community become
established. We have two excellent places locally, Deep Djhoti and
Tamasha doing interesting things using Indian spicing that are
original. In Central London such cooking is common, there's a nice
fish curry place in Charlotte St, then there's the Cinnamon Club in
Westminster. books by people like Fergus Noon and Atul Koochar (even
Floyd on India some time ago) tend to celebrate regionalism.

All of these are interesting:-
Benares Berkley Square W1<website>
Bombay Brasserie Courtfield Close SW7 (£££)<website>
Cafe Lazeez 21 Dean Street W1<website>
Cafe Spice Namaste 16 Prescot Street E1<website>
Caravan Serai 50 Paddington Street W1
Chor Bizarre 16 Albermarle Street W1
Chowki 2-3 Denman Street Piccadilly W1
Chutney Mary 535 Kings Road SW10 (£££)<website>
Cinnamon Club Great Smith Street SW1 (£££)<website><cookbook>
La Porte des Indies 32 Bryanston Street W1 (£££)<website>
Malabar Junction 107 Great Russell Street WC1 <website>
Palms of Goa 12 Charlotte Street W1
Rasa Samundra 5 Charlotte Street W1 (fish)<website>
Red Fort 77 Dean Street W1 (£££)<website>
Salloos 62 Kinnerton Street SW1
Soho Spice 124 Wardour Street W1
Tamarind 20 Queen Street W1 (£££)<website>
Quilon 41 Buckingham Gate SW1 (£££) <website>
Veeraswarmy 99 Regent Street W1 (£££)<website>
Zaika 1 Kensington High Street W8 (£££)<website>

(the links dont work as its a cut and paste job)
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:03:55 +0100, Keith Anderson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>We 'ad ter live in a tent in 't middle o' 't Tesco car-park. Breakfast
>were past-its sell-by-date bread that 'staff chucked out into 't
>rubbish-bin the night before, shat on by local pigeons and gnawed at
>by 't neighbourhood grey squirrels.

then t'cars parked on head.........................
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:08:34 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Goodness knows, they must have been born here.

I tend to eat curry with a half indian freind, he wasnt born here but
is culturally british. Obvuosly things are different and no doubt you
would expect the finist indian food to be on the sub continent, but I
dont accept your its all crap here view.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

"Chiken Koma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...

> veg. thali for 15 quid......hmmm that'll be one of those UK
> bargains.....
>
The last time I had a vegetable thali was on the Konkan Express between
Bombay and Goa, it was excellent and cost less than £1.

There's a Sri Lankan lady in this town who does them for £6 each takeaway...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I think a lot of chefs here have reverse engineered it, not wanting to
> use pork and thinking that the aloo part of the name means potato when
> in fact it means garlic from Portuguese. I favour red wine vinegar
> over white, I don't know if that's "authentic", but does it matter?

I doubt it.

My wife has tried everything from 'white acid' vinegar to balsamic and
settled on good old-fashioned brown malt vinegar as the best.

We have two excellent places locally, Deep Djhoti and
> Tamasha doing interesting things using Indian spicing that are
> original. In Central London such cooking is common, there's a nice
> fish curry place in Charlotte St, then there's the Cinnamon Club in
> Westminster. books by people like Fergus Noon and Atul Koochar (even
> Floyd on India some time ago) tend to celebrate regionalism.

And my wife tries 'fusion cooking' as well.

Her bacon vindaloo is interesting...

But, and it's a big but, she says, and I have to agree, that you can't
get the range and quality of spices in the UK (well, not at reasonable
prices) that you can in India and so the depth and complexity of the dishes
suffers.

When Tesco and Sainsburys both sell Spanish saffron at twelve or fifteen
times the price that Kashmiri and Iranian saffron sells for in India you
know someone somewhere is busy ripping us off.

> Bombay Brasserie Courtfield Close SW7 (£££)<website>

Been to that one. Very nice.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I thought you were going to refer to "Middle class kids are all stupid the
> parents say it is dyslexia, but they are just stupid."

I heard that one this morning.

Some people need slapping...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:15:49 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> but does it matter?
>
>I doubt it.
>
>My wife has tried everything from 'white acid' vinegar to balsamic and
>settled on good old-fashioned brown malt vinegar as the best.

I worked on the basis that the Portuguese would have used wine based
vinegar, but I suspect malt and red wine would not give hugely
different effects.

>And my wife tries 'fusion cooking' as well.
>
>Her bacon vindaloo is interesting...

not tried that! My Indian friend does pilchard curry, don't know if
its fusion or not, probably!

>But, and it's a big but, she says, and I have to agree, that you can't
>get the range and quality of spices in the UK (well, not at reasonable
>prices) that you can in India and so the depth and complexity of the dishes
>suffers.

bound to be true

>When Tesco and Sainsburys both sell Spanish saffron at twelve or fifteen
>times the price that Kashmiri and Iranian saffron sells for in India you
>know someone somewhere is busy ripping us off.

now that's a complex issue. When an aircrew friend brought me saffron
from middle east, it was safflower, which is much cheaper (sometimes
called Mexican saffron).
I also wouldn't expect to be able to compare prices in India with
prices in Tesco. We buy our saffron in Spain where its much cheaper
than here, I think the main reason is that its a specialty line in UK
nowadays.

>> Bombay Brasserie Courtfield Close SW7 (£££)<website>
>
>Been to that one. Very nice.

I'm not near SW7 any more. Now our locals are so good we don't do
central London curry much. In my days eating in Wimbledon at the
Khyber Pass (what a name for cockneys stuffing food after a gallon of
beer) lamb and chicken with graded sauce from mild to deadly and 6p
extra for off the bone, that I would now be choosing between venison
and sea bass in a curry house in a pub!
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:07:05 GMT, "William Black" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Chiken Koma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected] roups.com...
>
>> veg. thali for 15 quid......hmmm that'll be one of those UK
>> bargains.....
>>
>The last time I had a vegetable thali was on the Konkan Express between
>Bombay and Goa, it was excellent and cost less than £1.

Ignoring the cost of getting there by public transport? :-)

>
>There's a Sri Lankan lady in this town who does them for £6 each takeaway...
--

Martin