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So that proves my point, if there is no mandate a lot of people aren't wearing them regardless of any recommendations. Clearly we are not so concerned about others as some people seem to think we should be but rather we do it because its the rules. The original remit was "wear a mask to protect others" yet as a general rule we don't give a damn about others in reality, in fact i always classed mask wearers in 2 categories, one because its the law and two because i don't want to catch your germs. I am pretty sure few wore one because they didn't want to infect some stranger in Costco.
Regardless of all this i am convinced we will not see any significant difference in case counts just because masks have been mandated again, it certainly made no difference here as such.

scrubbedexpat091

Same with vaccines, the day after they announced coming restrictions for the unvaccinated, weird how Tuesday saw the busiest vaccination day in over a month, and like double the daily average of the last couple weeks, no way that was purely a coincidence, and its easy to get next day appointments in many regions now, and pop up vaccine sites, so really no excuse now, its not like early in the summer where it could take a couple weeks to get an appointment.

Almost Canadian

I assume you haven't read Danish study that shows that the wearing of masks is statistically insignificant insofar as preventing transmission is concerned.

To give that number the correct context, we will have to see how much a reduction in the death rate is for the periods of time in the future. If you care to look at the excess deaths rates in the UK, you will see that, after the peak, they quickly reduced to an amount significantly below the norm. Governments all over the world still allow people to purchase cigarettes and alcohol, which kill far more people than this virus is likely to.

I accept that, which is precisely why I couldn't understand the rest of Canada's backlash against Alberta's Chief Medical Officer's opinions a few weeks ago. If the experts are to be believed, it will impossible to get the numbers of cases to zero and, so long as the healthcare systems are able to cope, which they evidently have been at all times during this pandemic, people should be allowed to go about their lives however they see fit. The vaccines are available, people can choose to take them, or not take them, and suffer any risks that either option exposes them too.

Mistakes were made. The borders were not shut down soon enough, Canada's ability to produce its own vaccines was prevented by this government's decision to punish big pharma to the extent they left, old people's homes failed to protect their residences and multi-generational residences ensured easy transmission between family members (remember how I was criticized for asking whether the "everyone should wear masks also wore them at home).

You may recall that dbd33 and I had a bit of banter regarding the "waves". Please tell me when the first wave ended, and the second wave started? Are we still going to be debating whether it is appropriate to open up society in 5 years time when we are in the midst of the 50th wave?

I am on the side of the experts that are advocating that the world will have to learn to live with this. The world has learned enough that all should be able to keep themselves safe and, as with most things in life, it will come down to one's personal risk tolerance.

Mordko

We do know that the life expectancy has dropped in a statistically significant way. There was a good summary by country in the Economist a couple of months back.

Good point about cigarettes but in a way it does not matter. Cigarettes do not shut down economies, do not bankrupt good businesses and do not disrupt social life so that young people are driven to drugs and suicide. Covid does all of it. For good or bad, the society has shown that its not prepared to let people die because hospitals are unable to cope with the demand. Yes, hospitals did cope but only because of the shut downs.

While we don’t know the future, based on the current trends it looks like vaccines will help us avoid further shut downs and we can continue to reopen safely. Even in the US. If politicians had the backbone to introduce vaccine passports across N America we would be in an even stronger position and businesses are doing their bit.

Almost Canadian

With respect, covid hasn't done any of that either, governments have in their attempt to control it.

There are States in the US that have, and have not, locked down, with similar results. I have emergency physicians and nurses as clients here in Calgary. They report to me that capacity has never been an issue, despite what the media portrays. They simply do not understand why the media is reporting as it is.

Like most issues, there is more than one opinion as to how to best deal with this issue. The media appears to trot out the same experts each and every day that have nothing to say but, "...if we don't ... then the numbers will be ...." They never seem to go back to those experts and say, "Hold on a minute, you said that by now there would be ... and that hasn't happened. Why should we believe what you are saying now?" How many people have heard of the Great Barrington Declaration? Why are the media not reporting that other experts believe there is a different way?

I have received two vaccines. So I believe that the vaccines will do more good than harm. We cannot avoid opening society simply to ensure that those that don't want to get the vaccines have more time to do so as, if we do, there will never be an end to this.

The current obsession with vaccine passports is, in my opinion, ludicrous too. If you don't wish to travel on an aeroplane, don't travel on one. If you do, accept that you may pick up an infection and take all steps you wish to take to ensure you don't. The world doesn't require proof of a tuberculosis vaccine to be able to fly? Why not and, if that is acceptable, why shouldn't the same apply to covid too?

Mordko

Unpersuasive. In Ontario we had to fly in medical professionals from the other provinces. That’s not media’s fault. And the numbers kept going up at an accelerating rate until more and more strict lockdowns were introduced. Media was doing its job. They could have covered up what happened in hospitals in Italy but that’s not its role. Field hospitals in the streets of major US cities seemed to suggest that they may have had a wee bit of a problem too.

This might have something to do with the risk/benefit analysis. Tuberculosis risk has been mitigated in many locations but where its a serious risk, vaccinations are required. Lots of diseases require vaccination proof to go to school.

Vaccination isn’t just an issue of your own protection but public health. There is a long history of enforcement. UK introduced vaccination act in the 19th century (if my memory serves me right). The purpose of vaccine passports is to encourage vaccination uptake as a public health measure. It works. Accelerated uptake dramatically in other countries, like France.

This should be done ASAP at the federal level but unfortunately the leadership is lacking a backbone and/or understanding.

scilly

Incorrect.

It was not THIS government, it was good old Stephen Harper's Conservative government that begin dismantling basic research as soon as they took office back in 2006. It got worse in his later governments. The excuse of course was balancing the budget, and "other countries were doing it so we had no need to duplicate the research".

They are the ones who cut back grants and aid, shut down research labs including at least one with the highest level of security leaving only the one in Winnipeg, who drove scientists at all levels from post-docs to senior researchers out of the country.

They are the ones who cut money to Parks Canada leaving at one point only ONE park ranger in the Rocky Mountains with the status to determine animal and plant viability, other than handling visitors.

He won't be forgiven for that for many years to come.

THIS government was left without any suitable laboratories under NRC OR private control to take on the job of researching and producing vaccines. They have actually had to build research labs from scratch so that we can begin to produce vaccines under license from Pfizer or Astro-Zeneca or Moderna. That takes time, and one heck of a lot of money.

The country did fortunately have a number of privately-funded labs able to do research, hence the ones in Vancouver working with the manufacturers of Pfizer vaccines, they had the know-how to produce the carrier to get the mRNA into the cells.

Most of that funding of course came from outside the country. Ironic, eh??


I do agree with your last comment ................... we are going to have to learn to live with this, as we have learnt to live with flu or any other of the now common infectious diseases that once killed people.

If that means getting a booster shot at least once a year, as with the flu vaccine, then so be it

If that means living with having to wear masks at least part of the time, then so be it.

scilly

Don't forget we are a FEDERATION, not a country.

France is a country, the government in Paris has a complete say.

England is a country, Westminster has a complete say for England and for Wales by agreement, but not have complete say in Scotland or northern Ireland.

The Federal government in Canada only governs certain things, such as defense, entry at the country's border, transport, etc

The provinces have much control over what happens in their provinces.

Thus the Feds can order vaccine "passports" for people entering the country and travelling on planes, trains and boats, but cannot mandate for movement within the country by car. Only BC, ONT, etc can mandate within their own borders.

Hence we're going to get a patchwork across the country .................. I might well need a vaccine "passport" to go places in BC, or to board a plane or train as they are controlled by the Federal Transport authority, but not need one to drive into AB if they decide not to have one.


I only wish they did not use the word "passport" as that is what is causing much of the hatred towards them.

Proof of vaccination is what it is, just as I once had to have proof of a smallpox vaccination to enter the US because we were on a 6 month entry, or daughter had to have proof in the form of a doctor's letter because she could NOT have a smallpox vaccination to enter Australia back in the mid-1970s.

Mordko

^ Does not matter. We need a document with a decent level of protection which works across the country. Covid and Canadians move between provinces quite a bit. The Federal Government can and should impose requirements in Federal corporations and federally regulated businesses. Private businesses will do the rest.

Former Lancastrian

Be interesting to see how these vaccine passports will work between Provinces if travelling. My Province is issuing vaccine cards with a QR code however it is tied to the Provincial website so if I am in Ontario will it work? I have an actual paper certificate which is 8.5 x 11 in size with my personal details and vaccine dates. Do I carry it with me if travelling and show it to whoever? I don't carry a smart phone so I guess I would have to carry it providing other Provinces will accept it.

BristolUK

That's at least twice now you've posted something about masks protecting the wearer rather than wearing them to protect others as per "Multiple studies (that) have found that mask wearing has a big impact on Covid-19"

I take it you are referring to the study where the lead researcher continued to recommend mask wearing. It seems you have been sharing the same stuff that deniers have been sharing.

Mordko

Leaving aside your claim, you are confusing “research” and “manufacturing”.

Almost Canadian

We will have to agree to disagree. There was a video on Youtube that I saw in which, IIRC, the president of the company that developed the Pfizer vaccine explained why Canada was not able to produce any and he laid the blame at this government's feet. When I have more time I will try to find it.

In any event, I suggest you have a read of these:

Vaccine envy: Why can't Canada make COVID-19 doses at home? | CBC News

COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered | CBC News

Almost Canadian

And the science that are relying upon by way of rebuttal is...

Unlike some on here, I am happy to consider other people's perspective and do so without political affiliation. If Trudeau ever has an original thought that makes sense, I will applaud him for it, just as I would if O'Toole or Singh did.

Almost Canadian

I am in Alberta so, from such a perspective that you have quoted, I can only talk about Alberta.

We are not talking about school children, that cannot be vaccinated. I thought we were talking about day to day life.

It's a slippery slope though and I can't think of any medication is that is mandatory to be taken by the entire population in Canada. If Canadians believe that random alcohol testing of drivers is overreach, I can't see them supporting a politician that advocates for mandatory taking of anything.