morpeth

I lived their twice , yes over 40 years ago, and since visited twice ( both times in Kashmir fishing) And I had actual family who lived and served in various capacities before and after 1947. And friends who live there today.

The negative posts are just when you post nonsense or deny facts.

Even Indians agree most of the policies followed by India post 1947 were wacky. And I have posted enough to say that growth in recent years has been impressive and positive.

You may need a dictionary yet again, or read posts more clearly or take a class in logic, or stop creating in your mind caricatures that dont exist. Whether a country is a growing tourist destination and its level of poverty is no correlation- in fact often the opposite Mexico up until recent years had one of the most solid tourist markets and intelligent government long run development of tourism yet many parts are quite poor. And I never said or implied all of India was a slum, and the very figures I quoted clearly indicate that, Stating the obvious seems hard for you.

Yes I think proper sanitation is important for everyone not just the middle and upper classes. Since apparently the Indian government and yourself think otherwise, it is just different priorities and concerns..

morpeth

As you have said India used force, and you prefer to not accept the word invasion which it clearly was- and takeover is also what happened as the sovereign power change ( and no Bipat no matter how hard you try, Goans dont completely run their own affairs). ​​​​​​I used the words takeover by force since the original discussion was precisely concerning that- taking over territory by force whether by India, or the British the Portuguese, the Mughals, and so on throughout Indian history.

As you have admitted India used force. So that is one FACT.
As you have admitted India has never held a referendum in Goa on what the people wanted. FACT

India has used force in other locations as well to also achieve control of territory. FACT
India has also in those other territories not conducted a referendum on the wishes of the people concerned. FACT.

I look forward with curiosity how now you will try to find a way to deny the facts by saying (a) just a matter of opinion (b) no one can know facts about India unless hey are Indian, and also agree with what your family thinks.

morpeth

In the UK just the last two years I have seen various media reports on the breaking of election rules. Considering India ranks so high in levels of corruption in annual rankings for years if not decades and including recent rankings, I would guess it has more incidents than the UK but I dont know that for a fact..

Politicians using nationalism happens all the time. Maybe in India it is intertwined with religion more, but I would think normal India tries to get some domestic political benefit from the recent incidents with Pakistan- just as Pakistan will do from its side.

morpeth

EMR let's be fair- Bipat's focus tends to be on what the general media and her family tell her,so doing background research could be counter-productive for her as it would mean re-thinking almost her whole understanding of history and economics, we all have limited time.

But also I think the link she posted is extremely helpful in raising a question concerning the general narrative of why the UK put India on a fast track for independence when some might say simply it was too fast considering what happened during and afterwards.I agree one would like see whether there is additional supporting evidence of what was claimed in the link.This is a very helpful aspect of the dialogue with Bipat that sometimes she comes up with some interesting information one wouldn't come across normally.

Bipat

Morpeth you always turn your negativity regarding India into a personal insult. FACT.
What you disagree with is "nonsense".

1) Regarding Congress party policies----- "wacky" is not a word I would have used (or ever use for that matter!) Corruption/nepotism might be suitable words.
However, although slower than it could have been the economy did gradually improve.

2) Again ---Why do you think that I do not care about sanitation???
I give incidents when journalists exaggerate the situation to fill their columns also the difficulties of gathering statistics.
Are the various tribal people ever interviewed? Do they have ANY toilets????

Why do you always denigrate the 'middle classes'??
You advocate help for the poor. However if they DO succeed in life and become middle class then they suddenly become your objects of your derision.

The present Government has stated "toilets before temples"----whether it is just money or other reasons for delay---

There is also State level misuse of money given.
(A female Goan Minister was given Government money to provide facilities to prevent defaecation on beaches-----no evidence of where the money went----certainly no facilities----Don't know where she is either!!)

Bipat

The Government used force regarding Goa because it was necessary.
Morpeth---- really if you knew ANYTHING about Goa you would not ask about a 'referendum' to be part of India----they PEOPLE were part of India.

Running their own affairs you are deliberately misunderstanding. They also join in the running the affairs of the 'country'. Their country.

Yes in the case of Goa, it is because of personal, local and family knowledge that I say this.
Are you saying that people don't know about their own affairs? Someone who calls himself Morpeth (or EMR) who have absolutely no connections knows more?????

I think Morpeth that Indians know more about India than someone who lives on the other side of the world or makes a tourist visit.

YOU never mention the millions of poor/innocent people killed on the roads, the lack of enforcement of traffic laws----the 'purchase' of driving licences.
The lack of policing in villages. The low salaries of the police leading to corruption.
The lack of garbage disposal, leading to health hazards.
The lack of animal welfare----the cruelty and neglect of cattle. The feral dogs (fed in the tourist season---starving in the winter)---leading to risk of rabies.
The massive building projects in some areas leading to contamination of wells and people's drinking water.

EMR

If Morpeth or I wrote that post you would accuse us of being anti Indian verging on racist and know nothing because we do not live in India.
As you have done when any of the examples you refer to are given in our posts., first hand evidence..
Do you understand now why you cannot be taken seriously and come across as contradictory and confused.


​​​​

Bipat

No I wouldn't EMR----because you would obviously know what you were talking about.------

You and Morpeth get things wrong or out of proportion and context because you believe anything negative that you happen to read, without ANY actual personal knowledge or experience. You are negative about everything and anything.

I am not confused!!!! I just open my eyes.
(India is "confusing and contradictory" in many aspects)!!

EMR

Facts appear only to be facts if you report them, they are not facts if they come from anyone else , eyewitness , personal observation even though they are the same.
Bipat you are indeed confused and contradictory..

I would add, India is indeed, confusing contradictory, but Fascinating , that is why we will be back later this year and who knows even next year.
IF I regarded India in the way you accuse me of why would I being doing that.
You confuse correcting and commenting on your views of history, economics and politics with prejudice and negativity.

Bipat

No EMR it is yourself and your 'twin' who quote "Facts" which are in 'fact' items you select from history books ignoring the 'fact' that historians disagree on practically everything.

You select 'facts' from particular newspapers and TV channels when if it were the UK you would distinguish between them and judge their bias. You go for the newspaper hyperbole which you believe because it is India and would discount if you read it about the UK in the UK Daily Mail.

I am not confused EMR---- having a home in a place for 50 years I do KNOW realities and don't live in the past. I do KNOW family and local history. I also learn from those I meet who have personal experience. People in all 'walks' of life not just Morpeth's dreadful 'middle classes'.

EMR you live in the past in many ways----who on earth would think of discussing sati/suttee with a tour guide!!!! What does that show Indian tour guides about British tourists? (Or about what Indian tour guides think British are only interested in!!!)
What would you think of an Indian tourist only interested in 'workhouses and deportation of child 'criminals'????

EMR

You have gone into hyper ramble mode, go away and have a cup of tea and destress..

morpeth

The history of these discussions show that when a fact is presented you usually disagree with the only reason being you live in India. Then when evidence is presented, from sources in and outside India, you still disagree if it doesn't suit the image you wish to portray of India The items I have described as nonsense are not from disagreement of opinion, but when the evidence shows assertions you have made are not even remotely close to the evidence.

Yes corruption and nepotism both factors of course ( and for corruption India remains in bottom of of the list for corrupt countries to do business in) but even Indian economists now admit at the core of the problem post-1947 were fundamentally unsound economic policies followed for decades. Partial proof of this is that since India has begun the process over the past 15 years and more so the last few years as you well point out economic growth has accelerated.

You have tried to equate poverty in India to that in the UK, my family comes from a poor part of England- I have never heard of people defecating on the beach.

You raise an interesting point if I seem to denigrate the middle classes in India with my comments, though usuallu I pair with the upper classes. You are probably correct it is unfair- probably a result of decades of hearing middle and upper class Indians finding excuses and rationales to justify the extreme poverty of much of India. Your support of a space program whens so many are suffering and living sub-standard lives is an example that irks me.Or why Modi isnt asking for international aid and assistance since evidently India is unable to provide what is usually considered minimal sanitation or living standards- yet as you say he likes to portray an image that he is truly concerned for the poor. So why wouldn't he be asking for help if his government unable to solve the problem. Is it pride ?

Bipat

EMR "ramble" is a word you use when you lose an argument or forget what you yourself have posted.

EMR

No its when you go off on one of your tangents when your posts continue to prove how confused and contradictory your posts are.
This morning being a classic example.
I will have lost an argument , when, if you are ever able to contradict recorded history and fact., if I live that long.

How was your tea ?

Bipat

1) I have certainly read about drunken visitors vomiting and defaecating on British beaches. The Goan beach problem particularly in the north was/is for the same reasons.

(Yes I know that fishermen in India are also guilty, but they stick to far end of beaches for fishing towns.)

2) How many middle and upperclass Indians have you talked to in the last 50 years? Why do you equate them?

Extreme poverty exists in India it is an important issue with this government---do you think a government that has just introduced the new free health insurance for 50% of the population would ask for aid?
Just imagine the ridicule in Uk newspapers.
Poverty cannot be eliminated overnight it is vastly improving during the last few years.

Morpeth you are obsessed with the space programme. Why does any country have one??