India and the Wars

Old Mar 11th 2019, 5:02 am
  #691  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat


Morpeth when you and your twin* EMR post "FACTS"----- many are open to interpretation, some are opinions.
You also refuse to accept the concept of justification (right or reasonable)---Homicide is a crime----- in self-defence it is justified.

You also continually use the word "similar" in describing people of the 'same' family and community; somehow refusing to accept that dividing such people by a border by a foreign power----is wrong---- because other foreign powers 'decide' it is "legal".

Just one opinion regarding Attlee. I have read in several accounts that India was becoming ungovernable.
https://www.14gaam.com/why-british-left-from-india.htm

*Euphemism
Morpeth when you and your twin* EMR post "FACTS"----- many are open to interpretation, some are opinions.

Sorry Bipat that argument doesn’t meet the reality test. I posted in response to your post a series of FACTS and even highlighted each by writing FACT. One may derive different interpetations of what the fact may represent or mean, but a fact as a fact which you seem completely incapable of understanding. IF I am wrong by all means the items I listed as facts please do indicate how they wer enot.

You also refuse to accept the concept of justification (right or reasonable) ---Homicide is a crime----- in self-defense it is justified.

I have not the slightest idea what this is in response to. Since I haven’t discussed justifiable self-defense in any post, what is this comment about?

You also continually use the word "similar" in describing people of the 'same' family and community; somehow refusing to accept that dividing such people by a border by a foreign power----is wrong---- because other foreign powers 'decide' it is "legal".

If I say people are similar when they are that isn’t incorrect. Second, I wasn’t discussing whether foreign occupation right or wrong (and in case for you are highly selective which foreign occupation is right and which is wrong- completely hypocritical or racist). As far as what was legal you may wish to read the UN charter. Resolutions and get up to speed with international law since 1945. Clearly you are not aware of reality. Your views on justifiable use of force to take over territory is exactly the same as that of Hitler’s and Putin taking over territory of their brethren or kin folk or however you wish to describe- in fact their actions if considered through the mirror of time (which you also have written as significant) were more justified than the actions you describe. The world would be in chaos if the ideas of you Hitler and Putin were applied worldwide.

Just one opinion regarding Attlee. I have read in several accounts that India was becoming ungovernable.

I am just curious, haven’t read much on his thought process.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 5:06 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I think I realise now, where you are 'coming from' EMR; you spend your time reading history books without any present day knowledge of the actual 'place' you are reading about!!
Totally irrelevant remarks regarding Morpeth's question about Attlee, and scot47s origin of this thread.

Yes, there were wave after wave of invaders, however the FACT that 80% of the country is still nominally Hindu indicates the continuation of this philosophy from ancient India by the Dravidian and Aryan peoples who developed a roughly homogenous 'people' by inter-mixing and travel.

Other invaders left far less 'mark'.

Have you in your extensive Indian research read the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. (Both have been series on TV!!!)
​​​​​​..
Given they are myths maybe that explains a lot about you.
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Old Mar 11th 2019, 5:10 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat


Morpeth when you and your twin* EMR post "FACTS"----- many are open to interpretation, some are opinions.
You also refuse to accept the concept of justification (right or reasonable)---Homicide is a crime----- in self-defence it is justified.

You also continually use the word "similar" in describing people of the 'same' family and community; somehow refusing to accept that dividing such people by a border by a foreign power----is wrong---- because other foreign powers 'decide' it is "legal".

Just one opinion regarding Attlee. I have read in several accounts that India was becoming ungovernable.
https://www.14gaam.com/why-british-left-from-india.htm

*Euphemism
What an interesting link and quite fascinating point of view. Bipat, would the opinions expressed be considered mainstream views in India today ?

Thanks for posting

Last edited by Bob; Mar 12th 2019 at 2:57 am.
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Old Mar 11th 2019, 5:42 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Yes there are obvious differences in poverty between India and the UK-----the main difference is numbers due to population size! Also you often equate simple village life with 'miserable' poverty.
You fail to see the difference between village life and the dreadful city poverty of the slums. You also fail to see the self-perpetuation to some extent of the latter by those involved in the 'black economy'.
You fail to accept State differences ---climate, terrain etc.

2) Again you fail to know the differences at different levels of society. In some ways Indian women (middle and upper class) have more equality/opportunity than in Western countries.

I have put this link before.
Note it is published in a UK newspaper and comments on BBC bias also it concerns 'FACTS'.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...the-facts.html

3) Yes it is an outrage when people have to share toilets or can't be persuaded to give up outdoor defaecation.
You again use the word "India" when to some extent it is State differences. Also in past posts you equate outdoor toilets with 'no' toilets because of wording on census forms.

(You might also know that though there are many who would much prefer a 'squatting style' toilet, many particularly elderly----women and men prefer western style, although the latter much more difficult to keep clean) ---------there is always more than ONE answer/reason/purpose for anything Morpeth.
​​​​​​Yes there are obvious differences in poverty between India and the UK-----the main difference is numbers due to population size!



Bipat, really it would help if you would face reality- such comments may sound convincing to people with little education or have never visited India nor know of anyone who has. The idea that the level/type of poverty correlates to population size is in itself fairly illogical. You put a lot of importance on first-hand observation rather than studies by experts. I know of two Indian families in just the last few months have visited the last few months- and they live in a very depressed part of the UK in the north east. I asked the children and young adults (all quite sharp in Uni) what their impressions of India were when they go back every one said the poverty and type of poverty that they have never seen in the UK.





Also you often equate simple village life with 'miserable' poverty.
You fail to see the difference between village life and the dreadful city poverty of the slums. You also fail to see the self-perpetuation to some extent of the latter by those involved in the 'black economy'.
You fail to accept State differences ---climate, terrain etc.




As usual irrelevant. If I mention miserable poverty how on earth does that mean I am ‘failing’ to accept the State differences. This is an absurd comment. We were not discussing different levels of poverty in different states- nor did I ‘’fail’ to mention poverty in the slums. (You make an excellent point much of the literature refers to the villages and not the slums- just as your own posts sometimes in responding to questions about poverty you refer to ‘remote villages’) One constant over the decades of my personal experience in discussions with Indians or super Indian patriots like yourself, every excuse in the book will be used to excuse terrible poverty.


2) Again you fail to know the differences at different levels of society. In some ways Indian women (middle and upper class) have more equality/opportunity than in Western countries.



You must not be reading the posts, if you read my post I specifically said on this subject I had no strong opinion either way on the debate between you and EMR. You seem to be getting more confused. So how could I fail to know differences I never discussed in the first place? If I did discuss I would think I would start with where women are safer and happier.as the main criteria not where they are more prone to work.



I have put this link before.
Note it is published in a UK newspaper and comments on BBC bias also it concerns 'FACTS'.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...the-facts.html



Definitely an informative article. But Bipat certain things are facts, which you probably know since when facts are presented you often conveniently avoid answering or showing how they are not facts.


3) Yes it is an outrage when people have to share toilets or can't be persuaded to give up outdoor defaecation.
You again use the word "India" when to some extent it is State differences. Also in past posts you equate outdoor toilets with 'no' toilets because of wording on census forms.

(You might also know that though there are many who would much prefer a 'squatting style' toilet, many particularly elderly----women and men prefer western style, although the latter much more difficult to keep clean) ---------there is always more than ONE answer/reason/purpose for anything Morpeth.




Sorry Bipat not all things are relative. Your continued attempt to downplay the hygiene and sanitation aspects in India are quiet ast9nishing and to me indicate why there is such poverty in India. So no one can discuss India only individual states? In many posts I indicated quote clearly I know there are differences between individual states, it would be abnormal if there were not in such a large country- that doesn’t change the situation that tens of millions of people live in sub-standard conditions. When I lived in Indonesia there were also such preferences based on tradition.






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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:04 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
What an interesting link and quite fascinating point of view. Bipat, would the opinions expressed be considered mainstream views in India today ?

Thanks for posting
With just 40,000 British troops on the subcontinent India could have become the UKs Vietnam, with civil war not just between Muslims and Hindhus but also those factions with different views of the type of independence , and the structure of the nation's that would follow..
Would the Sikhs and other groups who did not identify with the Northern Indian British educated elite demand and fight for their own slice of India.
Would the bigger richer kingdoms allied themselves with the British ?

In the Burma campaign, Indians in the pro Japanese army did fight Indians in the Allied army, There was no universal support for those who joined axis either out of belief or just 3 square meals day.
There is a case for suggesting that the deadlines set by Attlee and the pace of independence prevented the Balkanisation of the sub continent.and an even bigger loss of life and years of turmoil that might have followed .

Other writers suggest that had the UK not left in such haste, India would not have been so crudely partitioned, the Kashmir and Bangladesh conflicts prevented , 100,000 of lives saved.

Post event analysis of the facts is what keeps the " History " industry going and has done since the first historian scratched his views on a stone tablet..

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:06 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth



Sorry Bipat that argument doesn’t meet the reality test. I posted in response to your post a series of FACTS and even highlighted each by writing FACT. One may derive different interpetations of what the fact may represent or mean, but a fact as a fact which you seem completely incapable of understanding. IF I am wrong by all means the items I listed as facts please do indicate how they wer enot.

1) I have not the slightest idea what this is in response to. Since I haven’t discussed justifiable self-defense in any post, what is this comment about?


2) If I say people are similar when they are that isn’t incorrect. Second, I wasn’t discussing whether foreign occupation right or wrong (and in case for you are highly selective which foreign occupation is right and which is wrong- completely hypocritical or racist). As far as what was legal you may wish to read the UN charter. Resolutions and get up to speed with international law since 1945. Clearly you are not aware of reality. Your views on justifiable use of force to take over territory is exactly the same as that of Hitler’s and Putin taking over territory of their brethren or kin folk or however you wish to describe- in fact their actions if considered through the mirror of time (which you also have written as significant) were more justified than the actions you describe. The world would be in chaos if the ideas of you Hitler and Putin were applied worldwide.

.
1) I was trying to explain to you the meaning of "justification".

2) Morpeth the words 'similar' and 'same' have different meanings.

We were specifically discussing Goa-----the people who were the 'same' ethnicity, families, communities as those outside the borders.

The were ruled by a foreign power which had no connection with them whatsoever, the fact that this was made/called legal by other foreign powers does not justify the situation. They were being made use of.

Morpeth you persist in mentioning Nazis.
Nazi Germany occupied parts of France during the last war---If they had won that war ---would that occupation then have been legal?? The German people were a lot closer in ethnicity with the French than the Portuguese were with the Konkan coastal Goans!!!!! We are discussing a tiny area of land.

You describe me as akin to Hitler and Putin, for approving freedom for a small group of people to rule themselves.
So were those outsiders who approved the 'Quit India' movement also akin to Nazis and Putin? ]

You use the word "racist"-----for not wanting foreign rule????

On the contrary I would use the word for those who justify/approve of the actions of those who went around the world exploiting and making use of others, at the same time treating them as 'inferiors' and then refusing to leave.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:26 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
​​​​​​

1) Bipat, really it would help if you would face reality- such comments may sound convincing to people with little education or have never visited India nor know of anyone who has. The idea that the level/type of poverty correlates to population size is in itself fairly illogical. You put a lot of importance on first-hand observation rather than studies by experts. I know of two Indian families in just the last few months have visited the last few months- and they live in a very depressed part of the UK in the north east. I asked the children and young adults (all quite sharp in Uni) what their impressions of India were when they go back every one said the poverty and type of poverty that they have never seen in the UK.

As usual irrelevant. If I mention miserable poverty how on earth does that mean I am ‘failing’ to accept the State differences. This is an absurd comment. We were not discussing different levels of poverty in different states- nor did I ‘’fail’ to mention poverty in the slums. (You make an excellent point much of the literature refers to the villages and not the slums- just as your own posts sometimes in responding to questions about poverty you refer to ‘remote villages’) One constant over the decades of my personal experience in discussions with Indians or super Indian patriots like yourself, every excuse in the book will be used to excuse terrible poverty.


2)
You must not be reading the posts, if you read my post I specifically said on this subject I had no strong opinion either way on the debate between you and EMR. You seem to be getting more confused. So how could I fail to know differences I never discussed in the first place? If I did discuss I would think I would start with where women are safer and happier.as the main criteria not where they are more prone to work.

3) I have put this link before.
Note it is published in a UK newspaper and comments on BBC bias also it concerns 'FACTS'.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...the-facts.html

Definitely an informative article. But Bipat certain things are facts, which you probably know since when facts are presented you often conveniently avoid answering or showing how they are not facts.


4) Sorry Bipat not all things are relative. Your continued attempt to downplay the hygiene and sanitation aspects in India are quiet ast9nishing and to me indicate why there is such poverty in India. So no one can discuss India only individual states? In many posts I indicated quote clearly I know there are differences between individual states, it would be abnormal if there were not in such a large country- that doesn’t change the situation that tens of millions of people live in sub-standard conditions. When I lived in Indonesia there were also such preferences based on tradition.

1) Morpeth ----You know two!! Indian families. Yes the poverty in India is 'different' to that in the UK. Poor people are not 'clones'; there are different degrees, different types, different reasons for poverty in any one area.
I have repeatedly said the Governments have been too slow since 1947 to reduce poverty. It has speeded up in the last few years -----I have seen it!!!!! That doesn't mean that there is not a long way to go.

2) I did not say "Prone to work"----I said "equality and opportunity".

3) The link contained FACTS.

4) You are repeating yourself----I have said reducing the inherited poverty could have been quicker.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:35 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth

What an interesting link and quite fascinating point of view. Bipat, would the opinions expressed be considered mainstream views in India today ?

Thanks for posting
I have no idea! It is not a subject discussed by the 'mainstream' in India!!!!!!

Although recently documents relating to Netaji have been declassified, but not much was in the newspapers about it. His relatives have asked for more information.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:40 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
​​​​​​..
Given they are myths maybe that explains a lot about you.
They are stories ----representing the philosophy. The fact that you don't know that explains a lot about you!

The TV series seemed to go on for ever!! However the episodes of each lasted about a year.
You can get it on YouTube (I think).

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:47 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
I have no idea! It is not a subject discussed by the 'mainstream' in India!!!!!!

Although recently documents relating to Netaji have been declassified, but not much was in the newspapers about it. His relatives have asked for more information.
I wonder if this and other books details the beatings, torture , use as targets for bayonet practice by the Japanese for those who did not join the pro Japanese forces.
What was their choice, suffer as a POW, remain loyal or live in relative comfort in the INA
Japanese war criminals were tried and executed for their crimes.
How widely known or reported has this been in India.
Does the book detail the 75000 labourers , many of Indian descent who died building the infamous " death railway " at the hands of the Japanese.
It was not just British and Australians..

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 6:54 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
They are stories ----representing the philosophy. The fact that you don't know that explains a lot about you!

The TV series seemed to go on for ever!! However the episodes of each lasted about a year.
You can get it on YouTube (I think).
There you go again with your nonsensical rambling , you cannot travel anywhere in SE asia as we have done over 30 times. without knowing about, hearing, seeing evidence of these stories.
You say philosophy, , monkey gods, elephant gods, multi headed demons etc., I say myths...
I respect anyone who does believe, in any of the thousands of religions on earth they follow so long as their beliefs do not adversely impact on those who do not follow those beliefs.
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Old Mar 11th 2019, 7:25 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR

I wonder if this and other books details the beatings, torture , use as targets for bayonet practice by the Japanese for those who did not join the pro Japanese forces.
What was their choice, suffer as a POW, remain loyal or live in relative comfort in the INA
Japanese war criminals were tried and executed for their crimes.
How widely known or reported has this been in India.
Does the book detail the 75000 labourers , many of Indian descent who died building the infamous " death railway " at the hands of the Japanese.
It was not just British and Australians..
EMR ????
What are you talking about!!!!!!
My post concerned the Government 'classified' documents concerning the death etc of Netaji.

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 7:29 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
There you go again with your nonsensical rambling , you cannot travel anywhere in SE asia as we have done over 30 times. without knowing about, hearing, seeing evidence of these stories.
You say philosophy, , monkey gods, elephant gods, multi headed demons etc., I say myths...
I respect anyone who does believe, in any of the thousands of religions on earth they follow so long as their beliefs do not adversely impact on those who do not follow those beliefs.
Most intelligent people know that these are 'representative' ----just as the Christian, Christmas and Easter!!
How on earth would they impact on others who do not know the actual meaning ----such as YOU.
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Old Mar 11th 2019, 7:36 am
  #704  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat

EMR ????
What are you talking about!!!!!!
My post concerned the Government 'classified' documents concerning the death etc of Netaji.
Facts , Bipat , not just one point of view.
Are the details that I referred to part of India's history of WW2 or just the politicised versions such as that you posted a link to...
.Are you even interested in increasing your knowledge.
One of the Japanese war criminals tried and executed among the charges against him was cannibalism, eating Indian POWs.
These were the allies of the INA.
The book you refer to charges the British with brutality towards those who fought for the Japanese.
Given the record of Japanese brutality towards its prisoners, British and Indian is it any surprise that those viewed as collaborators were treated harshly..

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Old Mar 11th 2019, 8:09 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR

Facts , Bipat , not just one point of view.
Are the details that I referred to part of India's history of WW2 or just the politicised versions such as that you posted a link to...
.Are you even interested in increasing your knowledge.
One of the Japanese war criminals tried and executed among the charges against him was cannibalism, eating Indian POWs.
These were the allies of the INA.
The book you refer to charges the British with brutality towards those who fought for the Japanese.
Given the record of Japanese brutality towards its prisoners, British and Indian is it any surprise that those viewed as collaborators were treated harshly..
EMR --- do you read posts?
I have not referred to any "Book"!
I referred to classifed documents. I have said nothing about the contents of the documents.

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