India and the Wars

Old Mar 13th 2019, 3:27 pm
  #766  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) I have certainly read about drunken visitors vomiting and defaecating on British beaches. The Goan beach problem particularly in the north was/is for the same reasons.

(Yes I know that fishermen in India are also guilty, but they stick to far end of beaches for fishing towns.)

2) How many middle and upperclass Indians have you talked to in the last 50 years? Why do you equate them?

Extreme poverty exists in India it is an important issue with this government---do you think a government that has just introduced the new free health insurance for 50% of the population would ask for aid?
Just imagine the ridicule in Uk newspapers.
Poverty cannot be eliminated overnight it is vastly improving during the last few years.

Morpeth you are obsessed with the space programme. Why does any country have one??
I can only speak to part of England I am from, I havent seen people defecating out in the open,and people generally considered poor by UK standards tend o have a place to live food, money for drink and drugs.​​​​​​
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Old Mar 13th 2019, 4:08 pm
  #767  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) I have certainly read about drunken visitors vomiting and defaecating on British beaches. The Goan beach problem particularly in the north was/is for the same reasons.

(Yes I know that fishermen in India are also guilty, but they stick to far end of beaches for fishing towns.)

2) How many middle and upperclass Indians have you talked to in the last 50 years? Why do you equate them?

Extreme poverty exists in India it is an important issue with this government---do you think a government that has just introduced the new free health insurance for 50% of the population would ask for aid?
Just imagine the ridicule in Uk newspapers.
Poverty cannot be eliminated overnight it is vastly improving during the last few years.

Morpeth you are obsessed with the space programme. Why does any country have one??
A country with the poverty of India ha no business having space programs or other prestige projects to make the upper and middle classes feel better.​​​​​​

Better to be ridiculed than let people live like that.

I presented to you a lot of data on how the poverty rate was determined in India the similarity in the social criteria- criteria hat you brought up-showing India at a par ( in some areas above but in others below) with countries like Indonesia, Philippines, Angola and Rwanda. To equate the type and scale of poverty in India to the UK or other advanced countries is absurd. Are there homeless people in the UK, strangely enough considering the benefit system, yes. Are there generation and generations of people born.living and dying on the streets, and a substantial percentage defecating in outside like in India which of a scale has been widely reported by Indian and non-Indian sources, no. .

Do some drunks vomit or defecate on a beach in England doesnt equate to people who live there lives defecating in the open, or without the sanitation levels taken for granted by the poor in the UK or Europe or even the USA.

How many Indians have I spoken to over the years ,certainly not as many as you, but fairly regularly as I have lifelong friends from university from India,Pakistan and Sri Lanka- and since I have natural curiosity I do ask questions, The part of the Uk I am from doesnt have that many Indians , but those I run across I also engage in conversation and sometimes ask them about some of your more crazy assertions. Why would they lie when recently visited India and I ask their impressions and they comment on the poverty, pollution, corruption but yes also the economic growth. I am not seeking to promote some magical tourist version of India, just curious their impressions. And often they can spout the same sort of polemics trying to blame the British fro everything, seems a type of collective mass delusion to evidence is not unknown there.

It is quite impressive news reports that their will be free medical care in India, something the USA is unable to achieve, and as you mention there are certain subsidies and no doubt within India the poverty rates are different in different regions..And we have no disagreement it takes time especially after decades of economic mismanagement and yes wacky inane economic policies seemingly almost guaranteeing slow growth rates.The question of aid does show how driven Indian politicians and I assume much of the upper and middle class by Indian nationalism- why would someone refuse to ask for aid for the poor of India ? Why would someone restrict capital inflow with such poverty or make it so challenging to do business in India ?

( At the moment I am doing some consulting involving two Indians and a foreign company tentatively thinking of doing business in India. Rather daunting the obstacles India still has in place let alone the corruption. So please no drivel about Modi making India open for business by removing all or even most inane regulations !.).
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Old Mar 13th 2019, 4:18 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
1) I can only speak to part of England I am from, I havent seen people defecating out in the open, and 2) people generally considered poor by UK standards tend o have a place to live food, money for drink and drugs.​​​​​​
1) I was in the post you replied to--- referring to Goan beaches and money not spent by a Minister. Indicating State level responsibility.

I don't think you read UK newspapers! Every year there are stories about drunks on British beaches vomiting and excreting during the holiday seasons.
I doubt you would see them unless you are prone to join midnight stag parties etc. As tourists--- they do the same abroad--- including India---(North Goa---Gokarna etc.)

2) I could say the same about the poor in the villages around where we live in Karnataka----they have wood/concrete built cottages, outside toilets. Depending on jobs they get (often the women) -- TVs. and cooking hobs, mobile phones.
Also unfortunately the men have money for drink. Drugs not in our area.

Morpeth, as I said you cannot equate all----"the poor"--in India----those in remote villages away from near by towns or those in city slums-- the situations are quite different.
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Old Mar 13th 2019, 4:34 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
A country with the poverty of India ha no business having space programs or other prestige projects to make the upper and middle classes feel better.​​​​​​

Better to be ridiculed than let people live like that.

I presented to you a lot of data on how the poverty rate was determined in India the similarity in the social criteria- criteria hat you brought up-showing India at a par ( in some areas above but in others below) with countries like Indonesia, Philippines, Angola and Rwanda. To equate the type and scale of poverty in India to the UK or other advanced countries is absurd. Are there homeless people in the UK, strangely enough considering the benefit system, yes. Are there generation and generations of people born.living and dying on the streets, and a substantial percentage defecating in outside like in India which of a scale has been widely reported by Indian and non-Indian sources, no. .

Do some drunks vomit or defecate on a beach in England doesnt equate to people who live there lives defecating in the open, or without the sanitation levels taken for granted by the poor in the UK or Europe or even the USA.

How many Indians have I spoken to over the years ,certainly not as many as you, but fairly regularly as I have lifelong friends from university from India,Pakistan and Sri Lanka- and since I have natural curiosity I do ask questions, The part of the Uk I am from doesnt have that many Indians , but those I run across I also engage in conversation and sometimes ask them about some of your more crazy assertions. Why would they lie when recently visited India and I ask their impressions and they comment on the poverty, pollution, corruption but yes also the economic growth. I am not seeking to promote some magical tourist version of India, just curious their impressions. And often they can spout the same sort of polemics trying to blame the British fro everything, seems a type of collective mass delusion to evidence is not unknown there.

It is quite impressive news reports that their will be free medical care in India, something the USA is unable to achieve, and as you mention there are certain subsidies and no doubt within India the poverty rates are different in different regions..And we have no disagreement it takes time especially after decades of economic mismanagement and yes wacky inane economic policies seemingly almost guaranteeing slow growth rates.The question of aid does show how driven Indian politicians and I assume much of the upper and middle class by Indian nationalism- why would someone refuse to ask for aid for the poor of India ? Why would someone restrict capital inflow with such poverty or make it so challenging to do business in India ?

( At the moment I am doing some consulting involving two Indians and a foreign company tentatively thinking of doing business in India. Rather daunting the obstacles India still has in place let alone the corruption. So please no drivel about Modi making India open for business by removing all or even most inane regulations !.).

https://www.thehindu.com/business/Ec...le24813050.ece

https://dfidnews.blog.gov.uk/2018/12...an-government/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/62590628.cms

Morpeth as I am not an economist and you apparently know nothing of the value of scientific research we are unlikely to agree.

Last edited by Bipat; Mar 13th 2019 at 4:44 pm.
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Old Mar 13th 2019, 11:34 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) I was in the post you replied to--- referring to Goan beaches and money not spent by a Minister. Indicating State level responsibility.

I don't think you read UK newspapers! Every year there are stories about drunks on British beaches vomiting and excreting during the holiday seasons.
I doubt you would see them unless you are prone to join midnight stag parties etc. As tourists--- they do the same abroad--- including India---(North Goa---Gokarna etc.)

2) I could say the same about the poor in the villages around where we live in Karnataka----they have wood/concrete built cottages, outside toilets. Depending on jobs they get (often the women) -- TVs. and cooking hobs, mobile phones.
Also unfortunately the men have money for drink. Drugs not in our area.

Morpeth, as I said you cannot equate all----"the poor"--in India----those in remote villages away from near by towns or those in city slums-- the situations are quite different.
Bipat the lack of common sense is astonishing. There is a world of difference between drunken behavior on occasion, and a daily way of life.

Again in numerous posts neither I or anyone has said every poor person in India or anywhere the same

There is appalling poverty in India affecting tens and tens of millions of people in a country where the government as a pubic relations ploy establishes the poverty rate at the level of countries like Rwanda or the Philippines to mask the situation for gullible nationalists or equally gullible foreigners.Your constant attempts to minimize or pivot away from the facts

I posted various links and articles from Indian and non-Indian sources private/academic/governmental/NGO's which included how poverty was defined, and concerning both nominal and purchasing parity calculations. None of this did you provide the slightest bit of evidence to contradict except (a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family says and now(c) "oh well there is everywhere and drunks on the back in the UK the same as millions living day to day in extreme poverty in India.".

You have to realize how silly this all sounds to a reasonably educated person. And I don't think you even believe what you are writing except for a concern to always present a sanitized tourist board version of your adopted homeland- and it is admirable you seek to integrate to India..

No one has ever "equated" , denied there are different regions or levels of poverty, or that there is a difference between those living in the cities or rural areas. The discussion was based on the evidence of where India is at today. This isnt pro or anti India, just a discussion on what the evidence shows..Just as it isnt pro or anti UK to point out deficiencies in the UK, or the USA or any other country- and all of he discussion prompted by observations you have made.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 12:01 am
  #771  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
https://www.thehindu.com/business/Ec...le24813050.ece

https://dfidnews.blog.gov.uk/2018/12...an-government/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/62590628.cms

Morpeth as I am not an economist and you apparently know nothing of the value of scientific research we are unlikely to agree.
The links you have provided do not in the slightest contradict what I have written and is generally acknowledged by anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the Indian economy​​​​​​. I have simply pointed out facts that are generally acknowledged that even living in India you seem unaware of. I have pointed out India has continuing regulatory and other barriers to foreign investment that restrict capital flows and trade- let alone the issues of corruption. That India has attracted increasing foreign investment in recent years in no way contradicts what I and any businessman knows about doing business with India- and yes I have not disagreed that Modi's policies have prompted more economic growth and foreign investment. Yet restricting Indian economic development borders on the immoral let alone stupidity when there are tens and tens of millions of people in extreme poverty- though I accept your point that there may be political constraints on Modi to push through more dramatic change.

As far as earth-shattering results for the advancement of science from the Indian space program ( that is just an obvious example, I am sure there are other inane prestige projects as well going on) that justify not spending money on the poor by all means let us know the evidence. I am sure the Americans and Russians quite capable of advancing research.Maybe the Congo should join in, or Rwanda or Bolivia in advancing space research ? .

It seems as though space program is worth the cost for the emotional satisfaction and pride of upper and middle class Indians as shown an Indian news article

": India will land on moon in August 2025 with two astronauts and a young researcher from Physical Research Laboratory, this is the vision President of India shared with scientists of PRL while participating in its diamond jubilee celebrations here today.

He said that he visualized India launching a manned space mission with two astronauts into low earth orbit and recovered after planned orbits in the Bay of Bengal in 2014.

“It is a beautiful site to see the two Indian astronauts coming jubilantly towards the shore; Coming majestically towards the cheering gathering and being greeted by the enthusiastic scientific community presided by Chairman, ISRO. Of course, among the welcoming crowd is a 83 year man who is none other than myself”, he said."

Hardly do the poor then or now seem the 'priority' !

By all means since apparently you have knowledge of some earth-shaking planned scientific research of the Indian space program that isn't a duplicate of what other space programs are doing- otherwise why would you have an opinion on the matter- let us know !
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:35 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
1) Bipat the lack of common sense is astonishing. There is a world of difference between drunken behavior on occasion, and a daily way of life.

Again in numerous posts neither I or anyone has said every poor person in India or anywhere the same

2)There is appalling poverty in India affecting tens and tens of millions of people in a country where the government as a pubic relations ploy establishes the poverty rate at the level of countries like Rwanda or the Philippines to mask the situation for gullible nationalists or equally gullible foreigners.Your constant attempts to minimize or pivot away from the facts

I posted various links and articles from Indian and non-Indian sources private/academic/governmental/NGO's which included how poverty was defined, and concerning both nominal and purchasing parity calculations. None of this did you provide the slightest bit of evidence to contradict except (a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family says and now(c) "oh well there is everywhere and drunks on the back in the UK the same as millions living day to day in extreme poverty in India.".

You have to realize how silly this all sounds to a reasonably educated person. And I don't think you even believe what you are writing except for a concern to always present a
3) sanitized tourist board version of your adopted homeland- and it is admirable you seek to integrate to India..

No one has ever "equated" , denied there are different regions or levels of poverty, or that there is a difference between those living in the cities or rural areas. The discussion was based on the evidence of where India is at today. This isnt pro or anti India, just a discussion on what the evidence shows..Just as it isnt pro or anti UK to point out deficiencies in the UK, or the USA or any other country- and all of he discussion prompted by observations you have made.
1) Morpeth ----You have a comprehension/memory problem. The 'topic' of defaecation-on Goan beaches was a vain attempt to illustrate to you the degree of State autonomy by describing the failures of the Goan ex-Tourism Minister.

2) Morpeth unlike you in your armchair, reading, I KNOW about the poverty in India.
I know in detail what peoples lives are like---unlike you they are not viewed as a statistic; they are people the same as me/us.
I see poverty in our house with those that come (not servants, before you say it!) and I see it when I leave the gate.

I know what we do for them -----what do you do?

I can also appreciate that for many lives have improved more rapidly in recent years. Note I said for many, not all.
This is partly due to education now free for all. Education obviously does not help the city slums or remote villages. (For the latter TV could play a much greater part--but that is another topic )

3) Yet again the snide remark about 'adopting the country and integration'. I am British.
This is an expat Forum.

I would ask what is your problem that you latch onto every post about India?
What happened to you 40 years ago that you apparently harbour such antagonism??



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Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:42 am
  #773  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Morpeth ----You have a comprehension/memory problem. The 'topic' of defaecation-on Goan beaches was a vain attempt to illustrate to you the degree of State autonomy by describing the failures of the Goan ex-Tourism Minister.

2) Morpeth unlike you in your armchair, reading, I KNOW about the poverty in India.
I know in detail what peoples lives are like---unlike you they are not viewed as a statistic; they are people the same as me/us.
I see poverty in our house with those that come (not servants, before you say it!) and I see it when I leave the gate.

I know what we do for them -----what do you do?

I can also appreciate that for many lives have improved more rapidly in recent years. Note I said for many, not all.
This is partly due to education now free for all. Education obviously does not help the city slums or remote villages. (For the latter TV could play a much greater part--but that is another topic )

3) Yet again the snide remark about 'adopting the country and integration'. I am British.
This is an expat Forum.

I would ask what is your problem that you latch onto every post about India?
What happened to you 40 years ago that you apparently harbour such antagonism??
How about answering the question, why is India squandering billions on vanity projects , apart from Modis ego how will India benefit from having a man on the moon..

How many homes could be connected to modern sanitation and running water, how many millions taken out of poverty.
I would be against such a waste if it were to be policy of any UK government.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 9:08 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
How about answering the question, why is India squandering billions on vanity projects , apart from Modis ego how will India benefit from having a man on the moon..

How many homes could be connected to modern sanitation and running water, how many millions taken out of poverty.
I would be against such a waste if it were to be policy of any UK government.
Modi did not start the space programme. I have said that it was inappropriate for Nehru to start it when he did.
With any scientific programme the benefits are not immediate or of interest to newspapers.

If India's space programme stopped tomorrow how many would be helped? What is certain those involved would lose their jobs (and probably emigrate to a country with more forward looking policies!!)

Again you go on about 'running' water -----you refuse to answer the question regarding well water. We use tap water for clothes washing etc. but well water for drinking!!

99% an estimate have adequate sanitation----obviously that means millions haven't. This is a complex problem with Central Government, local State governments and people themselves at fault.
Before you complain about the last point-----how many public toilets have you used in India??--destroyed within months by those incapable of respecting the need for cleanliness of the toilet.

In my previous post to Morpeth I mentioned TV ----this could be used and money spent far more to educate in so many ways, ordinary poor people (yes the do have TVs) and to inform them of their rights and possibilities.
For example the new health scheme-----very little/or no information of how to get it. We as foreigners have explained to poor people how to sign up etc.

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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:05 am
  #775  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Modi did not start the space programme. I have said that it was inappropriate for Nehru to start it when he did.
With any scientific programme the benefits are not immediate or of interest to newspapers.

If India's space programme stopped tomorrow how many would be helped? What is certain those involved would lose their jobs (and probably emigrate to a country with more forward looking policies!!)

Again you go on about 'running' water -----you refuse to answer the question regarding well water. We use tap water for clothes washing etc. but well water for drinking!!

99% an estimate have adequate sanitation----obviously that means millions haven't. This is a complex problem with Central Government, local State governments and people themselves at fault.
Before you complain about the last point-----how many public toilets have you used in India??--destroyed within months by those incapable of respecting the need for cleanliness of the toilet.

In my previous post to Morpeth I mentioned TV ----this could be used and money spent far more to educate in so many ways, ordinary poor people (yes the do have TVs) and to inform them of their rights and possibilities.
For example the new health scheme-----very little/or no information of how to get it. We as foreigners have explained to poor people how to sign up etc.
Sorry Bipat you seem to have a logic bypass.
The billions of taxes spent on vanity projects could be spent much , much better elsewhere, we have discussed the basic amenities, you have mentioned health, there's the infrastructure, it's obvious to anyone other than you how the money could be better spent..
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:25 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Sorry Bipat you seem to have a logic bypass.
The billions of taxes spent on vanity projects could be spent much , much better elsewhere, we have discussed the basic amenities, you have mentioned health, there's the infrastructure, it's obvious to anyone other than you how the money could be better spent..
What "vanity" projects are you referring to????

(I have agreed with you about the statues-----however millions of rupees are being 'got back' from the sale of tickets for domestic tourists to view the statues.)

Health-----50% of the population free insurance for private health care????

Have you any idea of the amount of infrastructure building, regeneration going on??-----too much some would say!!!
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:57 am
  #777  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
What "vanity" projects are you referring to????

(I have agreed with you about the statues-----however millions of rupees are being 'got back' from the sale of tickets for domestic tourists to view the statues.)

Health-----50% of the population free insurance for private health care????

Have you any idea of the amount of infrastructure building, regeneration going on??-----too much some would say!!!
SPACE, STATUES what do you think was being discussed, Modis ego projects.
I saw the infrastructure problems, miles of highways falling apart,
But a man on the moon is better than reducing hours of traffic jams is that your opinion..

Last edited by EMR; Mar 14th 2019 at 12:01 pm.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 12:38 pm
  #778  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) Morpeth ----You have a comprehension/memory problem. The 'topic' of defaecation-on Goan beaches was a vain attempt to illustrate to you the degree of State autonomy by describing the failures of the Goan ex-Tourism Minister.

2) Morpeth unlike you in your armchair, reading, I KNOW about the poverty in India.
I know in detail what peoples lives are like---unlike you they are not viewed as a statistic; they are people the same as me/us.
I see poverty in our house with those that come (not servants, before you say it!) and I see it when I leave the gate.

I know what we do for them -----what do you do?

I can also appreciate that for many lives have improved more rapidly in recent years. Note I said for many, not all.
This is partly due to education now free for all. Education obviously does not help the city slums or remote villages. (For the latter TV could play a much greater part--but that is another topic )

3) Yet again the snide remark about 'adopting the country and integration'. I am British.
This is an expat Forum.

I would ask what is your problem that you latch onto every post about India?
What happened to you 40 years ago that you apparently harbour such antagonism??
The issue of Goa's local politics today has no bearing n the issue being discuss, India using force to make Goa part of teh Indian state which it remains today subject to, and without holding a referendum on such stats. Factual and simple.

I have no antagonism towards India just because I point out facts and nonsense. I like to earn about countries that is all. The items you pint out as negatives if not relevant to the discussion or for which I have little to contribute why would I discuss

As far as your comment that India had to use force that is no different than the justifications used by Hitler, Stalin or Putin

Expats generally are not generally considered emigrants nor by definition seeking to become citizens of the country they are living in..Yes your constant publicity campaign of excuses for the poverty in India today or denial of facts. plus your one-sided anti-British rule, all without support of evidence, does seem to indicate some sort of fanatic nationalist of the India.

By all means tell the poor of India landing an Indian on the moon is worth the poverty they suffer. Or building such statues.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 1:47 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
SPACE, STATUES what do you think was being discussed, Modis ego projects.
I saw the infrastructure problems, miles of highways falling apart,
But a man on the moon is better than reducing hours of traffic jams is that your opinion..
'Space' ----again!!! There is plenty of other scientific research ----how much do you think should be stopped!!

I told you about the statues----making money------how much do you think it will be over the years? I don't know----Do you?????

You were there 3 weeks EMR ----how much of the 29 States did you see?????
There is vast amount of building and renewal of road ways-----The entire country can't be renovated in 70 years!!!!

Proper traffic regulations would reduce traffic jams in rush hour.
(presume you didn't use any city fly-overs or metros??? )
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 1:56 pm
  #780  
EMR
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
'Space' ----again!!! There is plenty of other scientific research ----how much do you think should be stopped!!

I told you about the statues----making money------how much do you think it will be over the years? I don't know----Do you?????

You were there 3 weeks EMR ----how much of the 29 States did you see?????
There is vast amount of building and renewal of road ways-----The entire country can't be renovated in 70 years!!!!

Proper traffic regulations would reduce traffic jams in rush hour.
(presume you didn't use any city fly-overs or metros??? )
You really do ramble Bipat.
You seem to justify squandering billions on vanity projects over improving the life of the poor..
I am not talking about traffic jams but highways falling apart, highways built since independence, major cross country routes, your well known comprehension problems.
You should get out more , or suggest those driving trucks, buses and cars in the middle of country that they find the nearest metro...

Last edited by EMR; Mar 14th 2019 at 2:00 pm.
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