Just giving you some Facts.
The Lisbon Treaty was more or less a rewording of the draft Constitution. However a promised Referendum didn't happen.

Nehru didn't hold a referendum -----I have never introduced this subject, it was your twin poster Morpeth who is obsessed.

EMR, FACTS is your favourite word, you need to know what it means.

It is your ignorance of facts which keeps this and almost every other thread you are involved in wasting the time of those who post and read them..
Fortunately the world is f ull of much brighter and intelligent people than the few tiny, tiny few who might believe your revisionist version of facts and history..
Clearly you have little if any understanding of what a fact is, 90% of your posts confirm that,.

Your usual reply when you are shown to be foolish.
You know that there was a draft Constitution, you know that there had been a promise of a referendum, you know that the Lisbon Treaty was very similar in principle.

You know that Nehru or any subsequent PM has not held a plebiscite in Kashmir.

What the hell is revisionist about this?

I would be grateful if you and Morpeth would not answer my posts, as I would then leave the Forum.

As it is I cannot resist putting right the inaccurate views that you have about a country you have spent three weeks in as a tourist!

Have you not noticed that others who post on this and the other India threads do not support your so-called 'facts'.

I and others cannot help correcting your peculiar views of recorded history and what actually constitutes a fact..

1) No, I haven't trained Indian medical personnel in India, only the UK! I have explained to you before the situation until quite recently regarding Indian girls and nursing if that is what you mean!

So we are both relying on hearsay for opinions that may or may not be supported by evidence- I agree a few staff reports are not conclusive evidence , but at least some.


2) I have said that the British because of the enforced separation from the 'natives' would not possibly know what went on in the private lives of Indians and how they were affected by the Raj whether in good or bad way!! Also vice versa!!

I am utterly confused what possible relevance this has to the discussion of practices in the workplace.

The policy of separation was put into place as part of an ideology of how best to administer India, in particular after the mutiny.

3) I think justification is extremely important!

No one is saying it isn’t- just irrelevant to the precise issue being discussed.

4) Economic history is not history per se.

Making assertions on an illogical or unsupported premise hardly advances understanding of History or Economic History. Perhaps better to study the past or current economic situation of India before making unfounded assertions. You made for example several comments about taxation under the British, looking up the evidence it appeared your comment if not nonsense, simply had no relation to reality.


5) I think Morpeth it is you who has no idea of the poor in India----of their day to day lives. What it actually means in real life to have 'nothing'.
We are with them every day one way or another.

I do not have your familiarity with the Indian situation today, but yes I have seen the atrocious poverty in India and other countries- and encountered quite a few Indians in my life who always amazes me often the myriad of excuses made for the poverty in India.


You can only see scientific advance as a 'prestige project', which makes you rather a 'luddite'; scientific advances are important to the economy.
Just happened to see this report.

No I am not a Luddite, just simply recognize the USA and Russia quite capable of achieving scientific advances in space programs, but India has millions upon millions of poor that the resources should be devoted to. The upper class and middle class perhaps are simply de-sensitized to the situation.




6) You have an obsession about 'referenda'. I mentioned the referendum regarding Goan Statehood as the questions would give you a sense of the reality of its situation and the unlikely situation of it Daman, Diu and Pondicherry you don't reply. Why do you see them as different?

Well I am still waiting for a simple answer- when India takes over territory by force, do they hold referenda to determine the people’s wishes? Is it so hard to admit (a) India like other nations uses force to achieve its wishes (b) it doesn’t bother with letting the people decide which country they wish to be part of. That you avoid these two questions speaks volumes about a subjective portrayal of Indian history ignoring facts.


I think most people would take the personal descriptions regarding lack of language, logic, understanding the written word, not much empathy for the poor, extreme Hindu nationalist, sharing an ideology with Hitler and ISIS as somewhat insulting!!!!!

Well maybe you re-think the culture PC victimhood. Nothing inherently wrong about stating someone’s position of being an extreme Hindus nationalist is insulting- it is either true or it isn’t. I know extremist Muslims or extreme American nationalists, I don’t equate their political views as something that is personally insulting to me or them.

I just pointed out your view on the use of force is similar to that of Hitler Stalin or Putin.

There are many people in East or West that have different levels of empathy for the poor. By supporting prestige projects and ignoring the needs today of the poor in India that implies to me a lack of empathy- I am quite sure the poor of India could care less when it comes time to eat, get shelter, better schools for their children, or even have a toilet to use, than space programes large statues or whether Modi has a limo pick him up from the airport.

I was trying to be polite I understand why you post irrelevant responses. I ask about a referendum on dependence of occupied territories- and I get response after response referring to a referendum that had nothing to do with the question. SO I just figured maybe there was a reason for poor comprehension- no insult intended.

You write that if Muslims don’t like being occupied they can just leave, evidently if India wishes to take over a colony the colonizers should just leave instead of having the audacity to disagree with India. I would think this may be indicative of an extreme position, maybe I am wrong- that you do not believe in the use of force to solve political disputes, that you believe in self-determination, and that Muslims ae Indians as well.



What does "British beginning" mean??

Poor wording on my part, you mentioned originally you came from England.

You mention the UK's financial state in 1947- if India was a drain on Britain's financial resources, how does reflect on those who claim Britain was financially benefiting from ruling India ?

I think we can all agree on something at least- that there is enough blame to apportion all around for the tragedy of the partition..

1) There are certainly different opinions about the taxation in India by the British.

2) I agree you do not have familiarity with the situation today.

3) As I said before you disagree that for any country scientific research and advance is important and will help the economy.

4) I am not avoiding the questions ----it is just that in your aim to criticise India for practically anything you equate totally different situations and different times in history.
I have said that the Kashmir situation was different at the time of independence to now, Nehru had a complicated background of loyalties etc. Which I won't discuss here.

Hyderabad have told you that I know little about apart from different accounts I have read.

Goa -----I DO know about, and a referendum was considered and thought irrelevant. (You never mention Daman and Diu---why not answer that question?)
Goan people were already part of India, they were given the choice of being an independent State or joining Maharashtra.

It is impossible to answer your questions which are based on ignorance of the situation.
The problem is that you do not see invasion and occupation by a foreign power of an distant land as wrong I do. Particularly when there is no attempt to settle in the colony just making use of it.

5) I do not think objecting to being called an extreme Hindu nationalist akin to Hitler is 'PC--victimhood'.
I am not a Hindu!!

What do you mean by self-determination?
On the one hand you support a country being occupied by a foreign power then you talk of religious groups wanting separate groups. India has many religious groups they are all equal.
(I do suppose you know about the difference in treatment of religious groups in Goa by the Portuguese---it is now equal under Indian law!)

You really have no idea of the poverty in India.
Are the homeless and poor in the UK affected by the Royal family and politicians driving in limousines what do YOU do about it?

6) I still-- "come from England".
I am in England
(On the 'commands' of children we have just cancelled our booked flights to Srinagar in May-----I am disappointed----anyway we will at least enjoy the Mango season at home in our Portuguese style- build home in Karnataka along with our neighbours some of whom are desperately poor)

" Occupation and invasion " I don,t think you have any idea of the meaning of the words.
One of our newer contributors does and makes far more sense than you...
When facts are pointed out to you your response as inthe above post is " I don,t know about that , or its Nehru etc ".
None of that changes facts and if you seriously wanted to debate you would respond in detail rather than accuse posters of whatever first comes into your head..

Question would you still want to visit Kashmir , if the Muslim majority had voted 70 years ago to join Pakistan as was their right, a right denied to them by India.

Yes I agree with most of what our new contributors have posted. Both seem to disagree with you on many points and one gave desperate plea for third party to help with your intransigence!!
What is the point in discussing details with you when you know nothing of the past and the continuing politics of the situation.

I have said the situation of Kashmir State at independence was obviously different from now.
Do you really think if Kashmir was completely under Pakistan control tourism would be allowed/or as it is now? Would the people be as prosperous?

(I and children have visited several times -----I always insisted on going by road/bus ----my main fear--- the airport situation in a valley with surrounding hills VERY near, so 'sharp' take off needed--went once by air with a friend).

Knowing Nothing of the past, it is in thousands of books, tens millions of words.
You really are the either ignorant or a revisionist, you chose..
You should read the most recent post from our new contributor, you obviously have not.

One thing you can be sure of if the people's of Kashmir had been given the rights to self determination , thousands who have died in the conflict would be alive today., including the 40 police and the suicide bomber.
Assuming of course that India's reaction would not have been Invasion and occupation of a Muslim governed Kashmir .

Yes, I read the most recent post some I agreed with, some I didn't actually get what he meant! Overall I agree with his posts.

Yes thousands of books ----thousands because there is so much disagreement-----historians disagree with each other on interpretation and on evidence---You EMR (and Morpeth) choose whatever suits your strange purpose!!

Do you really think that Kashmir could have continued as an independent State----China or Pakistan would have taken over.

As it is now, it is a Muslim self-governed State with special Status and its own Constitution-----(The only Indian State which has). Would Pakistan control have allowed that?
Would the little girls of Kashmir all be free to go to school? Would there be a University with a department of foreign languages?


EMR you fail to understand the affects of terrorism---the people most affected by Pakistan terrorists are those in Pakistan itself.
You justify the Mumbai and Pune tourist area bombings??

Why is the situation and relationship different with Bangladesh ?
Bangladesh is Muslim majority country, with good relationship with India. Millions of Muslims from there have moved back into India.

EMR the situation in Kashmir is army/political control rather than religious. Why do Pakistani PMs wanting dialogue with India, 'disappear'.
Imran Khan is under the control of the army----let us see if he has any courage to be 'different'!

Proof of your ignorance, how many people have died in Indian administered Kashmir since 1947., over 40,000 in the 20 year period from 1989 , and that's a conservative estimate from an Indian source.
Independent monitors suggest much higher,. some double.
All you ever do is divert and ramble when asked to justify your views.
Stop posting crap like your Pune , Mumbai comment,
Sometimes I think you have one of your teenage grand children posting in your place, then I realise that they would make more sense so it must be you..
.

I know the number of people who have died-. We disagree/ differ in knowledge on the basic reasons why!!!

Anything you do not understand you describe as "ramble".
What in my post do you not understand or disagree with? Be specific -----are you able to be?

Don't you agree that the people of Kashmir have a right to peace and earning a living and that women and girls have equality???????????

Why is the international Community warning Pakistan about its terrorist camps and groups? (Recent conference in Paris).
Why does Pakistan do nothing about these groups??
Why do they continually aid and fund the minority separatists in Kashmir?

Mumbai/Pune bombing "crap"?????? Shame on you EMR -----the dead tourists' families would disagree with you.

When did you last speak to Kashmiri people that you can be so certain that 'Uncle EMR knows what is best for you'!!!

(My grandchildren are only children --not teenagers).

I despair Bipat, you are losing any integrity you once had with your ramblings and accusations.
Ignoring 40,000 deaths, the vast majority Kashmiri Muslims,, thousands who have just " disappeared " .
Yes it probably time you did stop posting..
Your suggestion that I justify the Pune and Mumbai bombings was pure crap and show a just how far into the gutter of debate you have descended..

EMR ----It was YOU that used the word "crap" when I pointed out that terrorism from Pakistan was not just affecting the people of Kashmir.

I am certainly not ignoring the deaths of people living in Kashmir. Unlike you I have personal knowledge of people there.
You unfortunately ignore the reasons for their deaths.
You ignore the rights of the majority of people of Kashmir to live a peaceful life, be educated, earn a living as they want.

EMR ---why are you so obsessed with anything about India?? Why plan to visit there if you have such negative views??

(I did ask why you didn't plan to have a holiday in Pakistan? No reply as usual.)