Morpeth----You continually put insults into your posts. I think you need to apologise!
You can have no idea about my husband's family, fellow students, fellow workers.
Most of them, note most of them, not all of them are nominally Hindu------what have you got against that? The UK is nominally Christian, there are Christian ceremonies held all the time for various memorial events etc.
I am British-- nominally Christian---does that make me an extreme Christian British nationalist???

Anti-British----there is a difference between not wanting your country to be ruled by a foreign power and being anti-British!! There is a difference in actually knowing some of the misery caused by the British Governments of that time and being anti-British. I have repeatedly told you during the Raj about good relationships 'on the ground'.

As I said in post above-----the gossip about other doctors is not always positive ---the wealthy students who fail their exams. over and over but parents keep paying their fees---those who seduce anyone in a skirt/sari!!!!!

Morpeth exactly the same gossip in British medical schools and hospitals!! decades of working, I think, will give anyone a good idea of relationships in hospitals and other places that doctors work, whether they are British Indian or whatever! I have not worked in Indian hospitals----OH and children have worked in both Indian and British. One child also in USA.
There are Indian relatives that give regular voluntary time each year in a London hospital. As I said there are those of previous generations now dead.

Morpeth ---what goes on in hospitals is much the same world over----It is hardly 'folk memory'.

Morpeth the only referendum I have mentioned is the one held in Goa regarding the peoples wishes regarding Statehood. Which you apparently are unable to look up the results of.

I stated above that whether or not a referendum should have been held in Kashmir previously, to hold one now would be a disaster. It would not be all of Kashmir anyway as half is under Pakistan control. Has Pakistan held a referendum in that part of Kashmir??

The wishes of Kashmiri citizens are known by the holding of elections, also various surveys -----it is not my personal opinion. Although the multiple shops rented by Kashmiris during the Winter months in other parts of India would indicate their need for trade there. Also the vast number of domestic tourists from other parts of India going to Kashmir a major source of income.
The people there have to earn a living.

Again your "pro-Hindu nationalist, anti-British sympathy remarks !!!!! What precisely have you got against those who are proud of their country and happen to be Hindus???? I presume you know that the Muslim vote for the present Government has increased over the years----particularly in Karnataka the women's vote.
How many times do I have to tell you that I am British ---nominally Christian (more agnostic).

I am not pro-the British Empire Governments.

My remarks about Hyderabad were made when you were going on about a referendum there-----I said the people there seem to be generally happy otherwise they would have left. The disputes there have been mainly about the reorganisation of languages.
There have been disputes about official language changes in other States also, which I needn't go into here.

Again you mention Goa -----Morpeth believe me if you knew anything at all about Goan people and the surrounding areas you would not be asking this question about independence yet again.
It is not people tailoring their comments, we are part of that community!!!

Morpeth if I may also be impolite ---previously you have put a rather incoherent, insulting post late evening, have you been drinking?????

Morphett----You continually put insults into your posts. I think you need to apologise!



I have no desire to insult though with your hyper-sensitivity it seems you feel insulted when no insult s made or intended. I do apologize if your feelings are sometimes hurt. I do appreciate your commentary as I learn much about current events and feelings there, and helps me to understand how people can hold views strategy without looking at evidence, which obviously can happen anywhere.


You can have no idea about my husband's family, fellow students, fellow workers.
Most of them, note most of them, not all of them are nominally Hindu------what have you got against that?



You have brought up the source of your views are family and friends in India, hence perceptions of your extreme Hindu nationalism and anti-British attitude I am assuming party come from such influence I have nothing against Hindus, why would I ?



The UK is nominally Christian, there are Christian ceremonies held all the time for various memorial events etc.



Let us not be silly, the type of extreme Hindu nationalism in India and the actions that result in occasional outbursts hardly have any comparison with the situation in Britain. And by definition I was referring to extreme Hindu nationalism of the actions of nominal Hindus.


I am British-- nominally Christian---does that make me an extreme Christian British nationalist???



See above.

Anti-British----there is a difference between not wanting your country to be ruled by a foreign power and being anti-British!! There is a difference in actually knowing some of the misery caused by the British Governments of that time and being anti-British. I have repeatedly told you during the Raj about good relationships 'on the ground'.



The discussion wasn’t about personal preference to who rules a country, but the effects of that rule. I have Parsi friends who deeply regret not being under British rule for example, that has nothing to do about objectively looking at the benefits or disadvantages. The misery you refer to could be applied in different measure to rule before and after the British- some of that misery you refer to may have been here with or without the British for example. This type of analysis you don’t do as it would maybe contradict your narrative.



Morpeth exactly the same gossip in British medical schools and hospitals!!



Judging form the attitude syou have expressed, , often supported you have written what your family has told you, I am not sure how objective your comments might be- and in any case I was discussing the situation before independence, and not casual gossip.





Morphett the only referendum I have mentioned is the one held in Goa regarding the peoples wishes regarding Statehood. Which you apparently are unable to look up the results of.



Bipat you know very well I could look up the results but why for this discussion would I look up the results of a referendum that has nothing to do wither question asked. Again- has India held referendums in territories it ha stake over by force to determine the aspirations of the people who live there to be part of India or not ?

I stated above that whether or not a referendum should have been held in Kashmir previously, to hold one now would be a disaster. It would not be all of Kashmir anyway as half is under Pakistan control. Has Pakistan held a referendum in that part of Kashmir??



How does what Pakistan do have any bearing on whether India should or shouldn’t hold a referendum? This is like your comments when pressed about condition in India make comments about Britain.



Surely a referendum held under international supervision, a withdrawal of all Indian and Pakistani troops with an international peacekeeping force in the whole are taking over administration could be a solution- I agree would be problematic but the current situation never seems to get resolved.



The wishes of Kashmiri citizens are known by the holding of elections, also various surveys -----it is not my personal opinion.



These are surveys of all of Kashmir? Are these valid surveys without fear of India reprisals? I have no problem believing that India’s greater prosperity would lead May to be today more satisfied with Indian rule. That wasn’t the issue under discussion (a) India is no different than the British or Mughals or other nation in using force for its political objectives (b) India’s constant refusal to do referendums in territories it forcible takes over shows its fear of eh results.





Also the vast number of domestic tourists from other parts of India going to Kashmir a major source of income..



I am unsure what this ha sto do with India being afraid for decades to hold a referendum.

Again your "pro-Hindu nationalist, anti-British sympathy remarks !!!!! What precisely have you got against those who are proud of their country and happen to be Hindus????



Nothing at all. My issue is when such extremism interferes with reasonably objective discussion of History or even current events. Your illogic and constant battle against evidence just seems driven by such nationalism- though understand if it to fit in you have adopted such views.





I presume you know that the Muslim vote for the present Government has increased over the years----particularly in Karnataka the women's vote.



I have no idea what relevance this has to anything I have written or this conversation.


How many times do I have to tell you that I am British ---nominally Christian (more agnostic).



I am unsure where I have doubted you have British citizenship, so do some ISIS fighters I have juts pointed out your rather consistent anti-British attitude in spouting propaganda against British rule.

I am not pro-the British Empire Governments.



No one is saying you should or shouldn’t be, just be logical and aver evidence for assertion rather than repeat subjective hearsay or propaganda.


My remarks about Hyderabad were made when you were going on about a referendum there-----I said the people there seem to be generally happy otherwise they would have left.



I wonder if you would say the same about Hindus in Pakistan.


Again you mention Goa -----Morpeth believe me if you knew anything at all about Goan people and the surrounding areas you would not be asking this question about independence yet again.



Yet again you avoid the simple question under discussion- has India ever in any territory it has taken over through force subsequently had a referendum on whether the occupied people wanted to be independent or part of India?

Seems there is blame that can be apportioned to all sides. Perhaps if Indian leaders had promoted a longer path towards independence things would have been better, or if Atlee had a different policy towards the whole matter, of both Hindu and Muslim politicians had been able o approach the whole matter differently. A lot of what-if's to be sure. Or considering ancient animosities would any drawing of the border lines made a difference ? .

Again an attempt to reply your posts which always mix up previous posts and replies!!!

1) Again this negativity about anything that doesn't come out of a book!

I ---myself have worked in hospitals or surgeries most of my working life-----It is not just "what my family has told me"!
Pre-independence yes, but also from reading! I gave you just one name to look up----you didn't even do that.

2) The referendum held in Goa DOES have relevance as it would give you an indication of the thoughts and actuality of the people who lived/live there.

3) On the one hand you say that a referendum should be of ALL Kashmir, then you say "What has Pakistan got to do with it"----Pakistan is in control of a large part of Kashmir!!

"Pakistani troops" -----it is not Pakistani troops at the border, they are terrorist groups.

4) I will reply at the end of this post.

5) The Hindus in Pakistan are not happy---you must have read about the terrorist atrocities against them. Those in what was Hyderabad State are free to vote and take part in the rule of their State and country.

6) The people of Goa WERE always part of India. Why were people outside of the border regularly travelling there to their 'family' temples.
The Portuguese were a foreign occupying force. (You never mention Daman and Diu or Pondicherry)


4) Morpeth there have been hundreds of books written about the British Raj---- most giving the same opinions as myself. Is that propaganda??
I just give you what I have personally learned over the decades of seeing the actuality for local people that is "spouting"? ?


It is not acceptable that because I share the multiple negative views of others and historians about the British Raj you equate me with a member of ISIS, and previously Hitler.

India did not have an army, the only one in existence e was the Army of the sub continent .
In the periods before Independence there was a rise in intercommunal strife, Gandhi went on a hunger strike in an effort to stop conflict..
Therefore blame must be placed at the doors of all involved as they knew a peacefull transition was not possible, there was just too much pent up hostility fuelled by the religious extremist and nationalist groups on all sides.
Even the combined force of Indian and Pakistani troops set up to intervene in border areas had to be disbanded after just a few months due to internal conflicts and it's ineffectiveness.

Politically Atlee had no wish to retain the British Empire of old but what must not be ignored the UK was bankrupt, retaining India would have been a drain on the UK economy.
If internal conflicts had grown there was no appetite in the UK to see its armed forces involved having just gone through a second world war in 30 years.

1946,47 was a period of what it's and lost opportunities in the pre war years.

Although much of what you say is true; the 'delay' in independence was also a factor in 'intercommunal strife'.

Gandhi went on many hunger strikes---I think 16 in India itself.
Also imprisonment----particularly after the 'salt march' and because of the 'Quit India' movement.

I do not disagree , the granting of " home rule " Dominion status before 1939 would have made a significant difference.
But that would have only delayed the drive towards a two nation or more sub continent..
Muslims, the majority in much of the sub continent did not want to live under a Hindhu dominated government so division was enivitable .

1) Again this negativity about anything that doesn't come out of a book!

Not at all true- if you look back you will see the issue both EMR and I had, and have, when you insist on folk memory that contradicts all logic and evidence.

I actually quite value your personal observations in particular on current events there.

I ---myself have worked in hospitals or surgeries most of my working life-----It is not just "what my family has told me"!

I am not sure exactly how working in a hospital subsequent to independence has much bearing on practices prior to independence. But as you have said repeatedly the experience of people who were there is more important than logic or evidence by all means why you would doubt the observations based on people who were there, and staff reports that were kept and I read.



Pre-independence yes, but also from reading! I gave you just one name to look up----you didn't even do that.

First of all you don’t know whether I did or not, and second I am baffled how hat would have much bearing the specific optic I described.


2) The referendum held in Goa DOES have relevance as it would give you an indication of the thoughts and actuality of the people who lived/live there.

So the thoughts of Goans on a particular instance of organization under Indian rule as some bearing on whether they were gien a referendum on independence or not ? Your logic is very very hard to follow. You do ot see to grasp the simple question- were they given the opportunity to vote whether they wanted to e part of India ? Does india ever give people they conquer that choice ?

By your logic if the people if Tibet were given a vot eon whether to adjust their administrative territory, his is evidence they support being occupied by China?

3) On the one hand you say that a referendum should be of ALL Kashmir, then you say "What has Pakistan got to do with it"----Pakistan is in control of a large part of Kashmir!!

"Pakistani troops" -----it is not Pakistani troops at the border, they are terrorist groups.

Semantics, the point is fairly clear, armed groups whether soldiers or terrorists or whatever, from Pakistan and India would interfere with a referendum- and her eyes history to show this when India flooded Sikkim with troops rigor to their vote.


5) The Hindus in Pakistan are not happy---you must have read about the terrorist atrocities against them. Those in what was Hyderabad State are free to vote and take part in the rule of their State and country.

The poet was a Pakistani could make a similar comment to you- if they dot like it they are free to leave. Hyderabad was never given the opportunity to vote as far as I know whether they wished to be rules by India.


6) The people of Goa WERE always part of India. Why were people outside of the border regularly travelling there to their 'family' temples.
The Portuguese were a foreign occupying force. (You never mention Daman and Diu or Pondicherry)

Again the simple issue discussed wee (a) did India use force to occupy Goa (b) were the Goans afforded the opporuy to vote whether they wanted to be part of India.

The evidence is abundantly learn India used force ( which you have admitted), and no referendum giving the Goans this pportunity was made- and nether has India ever o he best of my knowledge anywhere given this opportunity to people who it took over by force.

Whether Goa was geographically part of the subcontinent, or shared cultural similarities, was not the question.




4) Morphett there have been hundreds of books written about the British Raj---- most giving the same opinions as myself. Is that propaganda??

If books likeTharoors is what passes as objective and scholarly analysis in your eyes then I dount you would grasp eh difference between propaganda or shoddy scholarship, and serious studies.

It is not acceptable that because I share the multiple negative views of others and historians about the British Raj you equate me with a member of ISIS, and previously Hitler.

Simply the same justification you use in India’s use of force in adjoining territories are no difference in essence than the justifications Hitler used in territories with ethnic Germans, or Putin in territories with ethnic Russians.

At no point did I state your use of ideological nonsense without evidence to support it or based consideration of British rule was similar to Hitler’s ideology and approach. Though by your reasoning a number of books by authors who also spout propaganda could equally be the justification used by Hitler, Stalin or Mao.

You also seem confused by applying 21st conventional thinking to 19th century practices

No one denies there were some negatives to British rule, and I have already pointed out that several areas I defitey study mroe aboit. But sheer nonsense not supported by evidence hardly advances understanding.

I agree we have a different perspective-supporting a spae program in a country like India with its poverty to me is a slap i the face of several million people in India just so the middle and upper class can deal with their pride and defensive issues.

1) Morpeth---I was excluding myself from the experience in India but by indicating my own work that I had 'inside' knowledge of the medical profession.
I have knowledge of those who worked before Independence --it is nothing to do with "logic" it is FACT. Also they taught the subsequent generations and so forth.

YOU read reports!? Just one person! Were you working in India hospitals prior to independence??
Obviously I cannot give personal names on this Forum but contacts of self and OH would number in the hundreds.

2) Again Goa---Goa was part of India---It was NOT part of Portugal. "Cultural Similarities"-----they were the same 'people', same language, DNA, religions etc. etc.
Think about it----- since 1961 when Goans became part of the Central Government, a Minister could have suggested a referendum!!!

3) It is necessary to repeat things to you. I have explained previously that the name of Tharoor was first mentioned in the OCI part of the Forum in a positive way-----I had explained to the OP that Tharoor was known locally as a 'Crook'. Has recently been 'charged'.
In fact although I have this book on my Kindle---I have only skimmed through it, the bibliography is more interesting ---some of which I had already read. Morpeth I have been reading about the Raj for decades!!!

4) As above.

5) Again ---the space programme-------I have explained that I would agree that it was not the time to start it up just after independence.
However what would stopping it NOW achieve?
A waste of all that research, people put out of work and--- be realistic how would stopping it now it help the poor?

I don't suppose the majority of middle and upper classes give the space programme any thought. However at least the middle classes are with the poor all the time and most do what they can to help and many do a great deal. (The poor, apart from remote villages, are not segregated away in different housing areas as in the UK! )

It is the economy of the country advancing which will move people up the social scale.

Morpeth----- I have the thought--- that your 'ideology' regarding different cultures (and inferiority it seems)--- is the reason for your often unpleasant posts ----indicating my language, reading and logic difficulties!!
You really will not accept that I am NOT of Indian origin, I speak English , am British and divide my time between UK and India!!!

1) s excluding myself from the experience in India but by indicating my own work that I had 'inside' knowledge of the medical profession.
I have knowledge of those who worked before Independence --it is nothing to do with "logic" it is FACT. Also they taught the subsequent generations and so forth.

As usually besides the point-I simply relayed the opinion of British medical personnel training Indians before independence, I am unsure whether you have spoke to any Brtsh medical personnel involve in training Indian personnel, or have you ? And I prefaced my remarks that they were anecdotal observations perhaps as biased your Indian associates ( whom I highly doubt would they would to the difficulties the British had at first traning local personnel). That is all.

2) YOU read reports!? Just one person! Were you working in India hospitals prior to independence??
Obviously I cannot give personal names on this Forum but contacts of self and OH would number in the hundreds

I just gave source for the comment to be straightforward and not make claims as you do of from opinion based only on hearsay. I highly doubt your objectivity about any matter concerning the Raj in any case, and you have already stated-several times- the memories of British don’t have any bearing but those of Indians do. .

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3) 2) Again Goa---Goa was part of India---It was NOT part of Portugal. "Cultural Similarities"-----they were the same 'people', same language, DNA, religions etc. etc.
Think about it----- since 1961 when Goans became part of the Central Government, a Minister could have suggested a referendum!!!

Yes again because you have an issue with facts. A) India used armed force to impose it swill just like any other invader in the subcontinent for thousands of years. B>) India, apparently as a policy, does not hold referendums on territory it acquires by force. C> Goa was legally, and recognized as such as a part of Portugal. India’s decision to take it upon itself to use force for its aims was the only question- not whether justified or not.





4) 3) It is necessary to repeat things to you. I have explained previously that the name of Tharoor was first mentioned in the OCI part of the Forum in a positive way-----I had explained to the OP that Tharoor was known locally as a 'Crook'. Has recently been 'charged'.

While such trivia interesting no need to repeat things which have no bearing on the discussion.












In fact although I have this book on my Kindle---I have only skimmed through it, the bibliography is more interesting ---some of which I had already read. Morpeth I have been reading about the Raj for decades!!!

Yet apparently not understood anything of economic history nor developed a balanced view.

5) 5) Again ---the space programme-------I have explained that I would agree that it was not the time to start it up just after independence.
However what would stopping it NOW achieve?
A waste of all that research, people put out of work and--- be realistic how would stopping it now it help the poor?

You evidently have never been poor nor apparently much empathy for the poor- maybe de-sensitized after living in India so long. Of course re-allocating that budget would help poor people.


I don't suppose the majority of middle and upper classes give the space programme any thought

Then why on earth would any rational person in a country as poor as India spend money on such prestige projects if not to impress the upper and middles classes ?


It is the economy of the country advancing which will move people up the social scale.

Quite agree and seems the current government doing a good job in that regard-doesn’t change the immorality of such prestige projects.

Morpeth----- I have the thought--- that your 'ideology' regarding different cultures (and inferiority it seems)--- is the reason for your often unpleasant posts ----indicating my language, reading and logic difficulties!!



I have show your words and logic sometimes incomprehensible; One thing sis being discussed then a hundred posts about something else. I ask a question about a referendum on independence in Goa, and you respond about a referendum on something else. Just seems strange. You are hype-sensitive so one never knows what might give offense, but this is just a discussion nothing more and nothing less. No personal insult intended.




You really will not accept that I am NOT of Indian origin, I speak English , am British and divide my time between UK and India!!!



Kind of weird, don’t know if I have ever doubted you were of British beginning..

Morpeth yet another bizarre post----is it not possible for you to learn how to 'quote' in the usual way for this Forum?

1) No, I haven't trained Indian medical personnel in India, only the UK! I have explained to you before the situation until quite recently regarding Indian girls and nursing if that is what you mean!
(Oh I had better reassure you OH was my senior).

2) I have said that the British because of the enforced separation from the 'natives' would not possibly know what went on in the private lives of Indians and how they were affected by the Raj whether in good or bad way!! Also vice versa!!

3) I think justification is extremely important!

4) Economic history is not history per se.

5) I think Morpeth it is you who has no idea of the poor in India----of their day to day lives. What it actually means in real life to have 'nothing'.
We are with them every day one way or another.

You can only see scientific advance as a 'prestige project', which makes you rather a 'luddite'; scientific advances are important to the economy.
Just happened to see this report.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ks-in-advance/

6) You have an obsession about 'referenda'. I mentioned the referendum regarding Goan Statehood as the questions would give you a sense of the reality of its situation and the unlikely situation of it being independent. I have asked you several times about Daman, Diu and Pondicherry you don't reply. Why do you see them as different?

I think most people would take the personal descriptions regarding lack of language, logic, understanding the written word, not much empathy for the poor, extreme Hindu nationalist, sharing an ideology with Hitler and ISIS as somewhat insulting!!!!!

What does "British beginning" mean??

Of course economic history is history no different, to social, military, transport , medical ALL Of which make up the overall record of the past.
You do come up with the oddest beliefs, which explains a lot.
You do seem to have a " pick n mix " approach to facts and recorded history.

How you have the nerve to accuse anyone of being obsessed with referenda considering your record must count as either pure cheek or just plain delusion..

EMR do you read posts? That is what I said!
Economic history is just ONE part of history -- not the ONLY part as the OP thinks.

Regarding referenda ----what "record". I don't make decisions.
I have explained the reasons why a referendum in Kashmir would cause massive terrorist violence at the moment.
I have explained Goa----at least I know more about it than you and Morpeth, it has been virtually 'home' to OH all his life, and me for decades.
Hyderabad, I have said I do not personally know details of past history only what I have read and what I know of recent times.

Clearly you do not read, you have been obsessed with a referendum on something that never happened, regarding a proposed EU constitution .
You may be right about Kashmir today but ignore the reasons why, the failure to hold a plebiscite as directed by the UN and promised by Nehru.
But as we know you and facts do not go together..