Mitzyboy

I may as well close this thread as it is really no longer discussing the issue of the UK riots. I'll give it one last shot to talk about the riots and not take pot shots at each other

Moderators have personal views too you know

noni

FINE! thanks for your extremely rude comment, I find your post abhorrent and an unfair personal attack which is totally against BE rules of posting.

Although others have not agreed they have not been so arrogantly impolite. I am entitled to my opinion like you are.

oktata

back on topic, how many here would agree that it is not the polarization between black ,white, brown, but rather it is between those who have a stake in society and those who do not.
and to the fact that to a large extent it is an outpouring of pent-up anger against the police, opportunism, and total frustration with their situation by the folks who see no future for themselves.

Bipat

I agree with you but also 'mindless vandalism' it happens in a small way every day in UK, telephone boxes smashed, bins overturned or fires lit in them, garbage thrown into gardens as they pass by, anything that can be broken is broken. (and I am describing a small uninteresting town in the Midlands).

On the other side; approaching the town library the other day I saw 3 rough looking youths apparently hanging about, when nearer I noticed a man had fallen on the steps and cut his head and eyelid badly, these boys had already called an ambulance, got the man to sit, padded his wound with tissues, and had called the library first-aider, they had sorted the situation.
So I think we must remember that the majority of young people are not bad.

oktata

thank god for that as they represent the next generation !

prestonjohn

What i find amazing is that the gangs have been around for over 20 years in some areas and the government and the police have done nothing constructive to deal with the violence they have been dishing out.Remember The Victoria Station concourse murder earlier this year ? There are over 13 on bail and remand for that crime from all over London.How did they organize it ? Mobile phones and the free bus pass that all Londons school kids have. Nearly every one i know has questioned why do kids need a bus pass that in theory will allow you to travel from Watford to Croydon, Heathrow to Barking for free if its only 400 hundred yards to from your home to school ? The bus passes should be only valid for one route ? Home to school then school to home.The West End is full of kids hanging around shoplifting, stealing out of cars and hanging around the clip joints in Soho.Its sheer madness and the police must be completely fed up the situation in The West End every time there is a holiday.As for the rioters themselves,the vast majority of them are in for a shock if they think that Their Sacred Human Rights will protect them from being bullied while they are in prison from smack addled career criminals !

oktata

not to mention all the tax payers money that goes into the extra policing !

k800mer

Quote from the Telegraph

'O’Leary, a carer at the Beatrice Tate School for children with severe learning difficulties, was arrested after police found a bag of designer clothes looted from a fashion store in east London, hidden in her flat, the court heard.
O’Leary told police she had been walking home through a park after visiting her mother last Tuesday evening. She said she saw a gang of youths drop a bag under a bush which she took home. It contained Ralph Lauren T-shirts and hooded tops, Paul Smith label socks and other designer T-shirts, which had been looted from Zee & Co.
Police visited O’Leary’s flat on Saturday and she admitted taking the goods.
Peter Stringfellow, defending, told the court that his client had not realised the seriousness of what she was doing when she took the bag home. When he told Judge Williamson about the effect a jail term would have on O’Leary’s family, she interjected: “What a pity she didn’t think about that before she did this.”'

If she did not realise the seriousness of what she did why had she hidden the clothes. She got 4 months, good for Judge Williamson.

noni

'We just stood there and cried': Croydon street that was destroyed in riots looks like a devastating scene from the Blitz

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1V8FDu9xD

dreadsoc

There is way too much blame culture in the UK - blame the police, blame the politicians, blame this, blame that etc etc.
The bottom line is that the values and behaviours that made the UK once Great have been eroded by a number of factors
- the courts are soft on crime with lenient sentences and bailing repeat offenders who just offend again (then the public blame the police !)
- No discipline in schools, homes or anywhere else
- The benefits system which makes claiming too easy and is unregulated and open to abuse
- The tolerance of alcohol and drug abuse which is now looked upon as 'disability' despite the fact it is someones choice to jack up with heropin and the like
- Immigration is out of control and unregulated and etrrorism at its highest ever threat
- The credit culture which has been made too easy for people to go into debt
- A section of society who produce children for the purpose of benefit claims (I point out this is only a section of society not majority) and leave their kids uncared for and roaming (and use the housekeeping for vodka and fags instead of decent food)
- Dumbing down of media such as tv making talentless people into celebrities

All this has just created a sub culture of laziness, 'world owes me a living' mentality and peoples need to get something for nothing. Worse still, there is no incentive for change.
But I have no doubt that instead of looking at the root of the problems, the blame culture will be used to make excuses for these rioting thugs - again !
I am sure some folks will disagree but hey ho feel free

Dread - x

dreadsoc

Hate to point out that so many times the police work their butts off to get these people locked up - it's the courts who then give them bail.

Agree about the bus passes though - how ridiculous that is !

Dread - x

oktata

Dread - agree with your points completely. borrowing some extracts from an article i read further articulates at least one of the factors you mentioned.

" What we see now is the logical consequence of a mighty, paternalistic welfare state breeding a class of moochers who simply find no urgency in using their own mind to think–to reason–and therefore, believes that they simply cannot find their own way out of marginalization.

Indeed, this underclass of citizens has been so disempowered–not by any remnants of a capitalist structure in English society–but by the very bloated welfare government that was allegedly meant to “empower” them that they no longer believe it possible to them to get out of their miserable conditions

How can one expect any sense of self-esteem or empowerment among such a class of people who have been bred and nurtured to be helpless beggars–to be recipients of dole, welfare, free lunches, and other people’s money?

Why should it be surprising then to watch these psychologically disempowered people–who have been robbed of their uniquely human ability to think, reason, value, judge, and be productive–rioting and asserting their “power” in the only way possible to non-conceptual animals, that is, through violence?

When you have the government enforcing moral values upon you, making moral decisions on your behalf, and distributing a regular monetary allowance to you, then why–and how–would you bother to think for yourself, exercise your own rational faculty, and earn your own living?
."

full article here

SteveKingswear

I think that we stand a chance of over complicating the reasons behind these riots and when you start to do that you are only one step away from making excuses for these people.

In fact its all really quite simple - they want something for nothing - they don't want to work they want easy money from the government and anywhere else they can get it from.

If you're looking for a cause you need look no further than the media and the internet - they see huge amounts of conspicuous wealth that appears to have been 'barely earned' (footballers, ogliarchs etc), they see people of position (MP's, Judges, Senior Police Officers) being jailed for fraud and financial crime. Who do they have left as role models? Bottom line is they can see people that should be role models being jailed for money related crime, there is conspicuous wealth where ever they look and the consequences of all this are what we have seen over this last week.

Tell me are these looters any better or any worse than the MP's jailed for expenses fraud? Or the Polly Peck chairman on bail for Tax Evasion? Or the exectives from News Corp who tapped into the phone of a murdered teenager to get a story that would boost circulation and hence revenues? Not a view just a question?

k800mer

Yes, in my opinion the looters are worse because they risked (and took) lives when setting fire to bins and buildings and running people down. I believe life to be much more important than money.

goanstay

I would agree that they are worse, but in reality that is the wrong question.

The fact is that people who are in command and in charge of this country have been shown to be criminals and many get away with it. The Commissioner of the Met Police had to resign, but I see no prosecution over it. Some Mp's went to prison but the investigation found that the majority of them had their hands in the till. Some paid it back, some not. But does that not lead to a view of - I can take it now and if I'm caught I can give it back

With role models of the MP's and police like that is it surprising that anti social behaviour exists?