Where is the anger?

Old Sep 14th 2021, 7:20 pm
  #136  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Sugarmooma View Post
+1
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 7:28 pm
  #137  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BenK91 View Post
Defined by USCIS is kind of a double entendre. As I mentioned, the flights are non-refundable, the ESTA was approved and she is/was a frequent flyer and the flights were cheap so, we'll see. Hopefully US Customs at the airport are as useless as always.
Hopefully she will get through, but please let us know the outcome.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 7:35 pm
  #138  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BenK91 View Post
Defined by USCIS is kind of a double entendre. As I mentioned, the flights are non-refundable, the ESTA was approved and she is/was a frequent flyer and the flights were cheap so, we'll see. Hopefully US Customs at the airport are as useless as always.
I am not sure how anything put out by USCIS is risqué or indecent, but I guess there are all sorts out there so anything is possible.

assuming the same ban was still in place then (I don’t think it will be) , I don’t think she would board the flight if she is not eligible for admission. The airline wound not check her in and she would not board the plane. The ESTA means nothing in this context, all the brits coming here now still need that when they go via the non banned country for 14 days. The frequent flyer status means nothing in this context…

Last edited by tht; Sep 14th 2021 at 7:39 pm.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 7:41 pm
  #139  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

assuming the same ban was still in place then (I don’t think it will be) , I don’t think she would board the flight if she is not eligible for admission. The airline wound not check her in and she would not board the plane.
Heres the rub. The airline will be fined if it carries a passenger not eligible to enter.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 8:31 pm
  #140  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BenK91 View Post
If that's the case it hasn't been well written, this is the proclamation as it stands right now: The travel restriction does not apply to:
  • U.S. citizens.
  • Legal permanent residents (LPRs).
  • Most immediate family members of U.S. citizens.
  • Other individuals who are identified in the proclamation.
Not sure where that quote’s from, but to get details of the ‘most family members’ (which isn’t true, it’s actually a very small number of family members that qualify!) you need to look at the wording in the proclamation. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...virus-disease/

Unfortunately, unless you’re under 21 and unmarried, your mum isn’t exempt from the travel ban.

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Old Sep 14th 2021, 8:33 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by civilservant View Post
Heres the rub. The airline will be fined if it carries a passenger not eligible to enter.
And the person who let the ineligible person board might get in hot water by their employer as well.

Why I like flying to the US from Canada, all the immigration and customs crap is done in advance, if your not eligible to enter, your never even getting to the boarding gate.

Plus if there is no flight same day back to where you came, depending on the mood of the customs officer, you may end up spending time in a cell until the next flight out, although often, they keep your passport, tell you to report back X time the next day, and everyone on the flight will know something up about you, as a security guard will likely be escorting you to the aircraft to ensure you get on it and stay on it until the aircraft door is closed and off the gate.

Luckily for those coming in my flights in Vancouver, those denied by Canada Customs almost always left back on the same aircraft they arrived on, but I could not imagine how miserable it could be to fly 10-12 hours, get denied, then end up on another 10-12 hour flight possibly back to back with very little time on the ground, not fun.




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Old Sep 14th 2021, 8:47 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

If the anger is supposed to becoming from everyday average Americans, you likely wont find much, most of the US population isn't going to be concerned about which foreigners can and cannot enter, and why should they?

Does the US guarantee entry to those on various Visas? I never had a US Visa being born and raised there, but when I did have a Canadian Temporary thingy before becoming a PR, they printed in nice big bold all capital letters if I recall something like this document does not guarantee entry.

The document allowed me to work and live in Canada, but it did not guarantee me entry into Canada, although I have no idea what criteria CBSA uses to determine to deny entry as I was not denied entry but did take a little extra processing on arrival.

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Old Sep 14th 2021, 9:02 pm
  #143  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
And the person who let the ineligible person board might get in hot water by their employer as well.

Why I like flying to the US from Canada, all the immigration and customs crap is done in advance, if your not eligible to enter, your never even getting to the boarding gate.

Plus if there is no flight same day back to where you came, depending on the mood of the customs officer, you may end up spending time in a cell until the next flight out, although often, they keep your passport, tell you to report back X time the next day, and everyone on the flight will know something up about you, as a security guard will likely be escorting you to the aircraft to ensure you get on it and stay on it until the aircraft door is closed and off the gate.

Luckily for those coming in my flights in Vancouver, those denied by Canada Customs almost always left back on the same aircraft they arrived on, but I could not imagine how miserable it could be to fly 10-12 hours, get denied, then end up on another 10-12 hour flight possibly back to back with very little time on the ground, not fun.
I confess to watching Border Security. . According to that program if a person is denied entry, they are most likely locked up in a cell with others until an available flight is found. The flight back is at the passenger’s| expense, as it is at short notice it could be quite costly. Also if entry is denied, that person is banned from entering for a period of time (1 year I think). Sometimes the person is asked to rescind their request to enter. If this is the case there is no ban on re-entering at a later date.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 9:11 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Mistakes happen but her being able to board without showing evidence that the ban does not apply to her would be a major one.

I have seen ESTA cancelled at short notice in this sort of situation.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 9:28 pm
  #145  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BenK91 View Post
Defined by USCIS is kind of a double entendre. As I mentioned, the flights are non-refundable, the ESTA was approved and she is/was a frequent flyer and the flights were cheap so, we'll see. Hopefully US Customs at the airport are as useless as always.
Unfortunately she isn't eligible and it's pretty clearly spelled out in the actual text of the proclamation. The ESTA will be canceled as soon as she tries to check in anyway - it'll be a wasted trip to the airport.

The way they are enforcing the ban is to automatically cancel ESTAs when the advance passenger data comes through, then people who are eligible for exemptions have to prove they are exempt to the DHS/CBP liaison people stationed at the departure airport to have the ESTA reinstated or permission to board given. There's no way to "slip through the net".

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...virus-disease/

(a) Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply toi) any lawful permanent resident of the United States;

(ii) any noncitizen national of the United States;

(iii) any noncitizen who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident;

(iv) any noncitizen who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21;

Last edited by Olly_; Sep 14th 2021 at 9:43 pm.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 9:36 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

None of the airlines I worked for charged the denied passenger to return if denied entry by relevant customs authorities, but I am sure some do.

I've seen CBSA do both, keep someone detained, others keep their passport but let them go to a hotel or family for the night, no idea how they decide, suppose it depends on the flight risk, but for us unless you came in one the last flight of the night, there was always a flight back to the US within a couple hours at most.

Now I wonder how CBSA deals with someone who arrives from the US but isn't a US national, but connected in the US, US probably wouldn't let that person back into the US, so not sure how it works there, guess CBSA sends them back to their home country maybe?



All of our flights were US airlines, so frequency was high, well pre-COVID now there is far limited flights each day.

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl View Post
I confess to watching Border Security. . According to that program if a person is denied entry, they are most likely locked up in a cell with others until an available flight is found. The flight back is at the passenger’s| expense, as it is at short notice it could be quite costly. Also if entry is denied, that person is banned from entering for a period of time (1 year I think). Sometimes the person is asked to rescind their request to enter. If this is the case there is no ban on re-entering at a later date.

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Old Sep 14th 2021, 10:14 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BenK91 View Post
My mum is flying out to visit next Friday, everything we have read says immediate family (i.e. the parent of a US Citizen) is able to visit. She has her proof of vaccination, and Covid tests booked prior to travel each way.

To be quite frank I really do not care about the health of those who *choose* to be unvaccinated, I have done my civic duty (along with millions of others) in doing what was asked of me, and that was to receive two doses of a vaccine I didn't particularly want, but did anyway.
I hope she is not refused entry, because I am sure she will be extremely distressed if that was to be the case. Approx 12 years ago we arranged for my MIL to join us in NJ for Christmas and NY. My FIL died 8 months previously. When she got to the airport the flight had been cancelled in Newark due to bad weather. Continental (as it was then) told her there was no availability until after Christmas. She returned home and was terribly upset. My husband emailed the CEO of the airline. It was Sunday morning, 20 minutes later he got a reply saying his personal assistant would contact us. 30 mins later we got a call…MIL was booked on the next flight. Unfortunately there is not much the airline can do for your mum. the airline and immigration turn a blind eye.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 10:27 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

So when do we all think the ban will be lifted then?

I have heard talk of 22 and even 23. Though I think as long as Biden is President we will never get in he doesn't like us he think we are all mindless yobs and because of brexit. I would personally like to see him have the courage to throw the UK off the visa waiver program knowing full well he will lose the UK as an ally in all things as we have threatened before apparently if he does it and live with that decision. But that is my opinion. Or even to annexe the entire thing.
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 10:38 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by johnbrown1938 View Post
So when do we all think the ban will be lifted then?

I have heard talk of 22 and even 23. Though I think as long as Biden is President we will never get in he doesn't like us he think we are all mindless yobs and because of brexit. I would personally like to see him have the courage to throw the UK off the visa waiver program knowing full well he will lose the UK as an ally in all things as we have threatened before apparently if he does it and live with that decision. But that is my opinion. Or even to annexe the entire thing.
How long is a piece of string?
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Old Sep 14th 2021, 10:44 pm
  #150  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
None of the airlines I worked for charged the denied passenger to return if denied entry by relevant customs authorities, but I am sure some do.

I've seen CBSA do both, keep someone detained, others keep their passport but let them go to a hotel or family for the night, no idea how they decide, suppose it depends on the flight risk, but for us unless you came in one the last flight of the night, there was always a flight back to the US within a couple hours at most.

Now I wonder how CBSA deals with someone who arrives from the US but isn't a US national, but connected in the US, US probably wouldn't let that person back into the US, so not sure how it works there, guess CBSA sends them back to their home country maybe?



All of our flights were US airlines, so frequency was high, well pre-COVID now there is far limited flights each day.
In this case the US would have to accept them back as we never allowed them to enter.
Airlines have a responsibility to take back a person who is denied entry. Airlines can attempt to charge the passenger for the flight back if they arrived on a one way ticket and those flights with less than 24 hours notice aint cheap. If the person refuses to pay then we step in and remind them of their liability. Normally when I was doing these types of cases the airlines were OK to work with but was involved in the odd shouting match with gate check in staff. Some airlines had no evening flights so dependent on what time they arrived it was an overnight stay. God forbid we dealt with a charter airline who flew only once a week.

Dependent on the reason for denial Yes it could end up with them staying in jail or an overnight cell at the airport. Also to note that in having to take this passenger back and if the returning flight was full then somebody needed bumping from that flight.
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