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Moving back to England was a mistake

Moving back to England was a mistake

Old Dec 27th 2003, 6:46 am
  #121  
JeanDupont
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Ontheball - perhaps you could include a link to your cut and paste comments so we can see the whole text and not just your selection.
Why are you badmouthing UK? What are you gaining. We all know what its like on here - not perfect but not as bad as you make out.
In my opinion you are merely an unwelcome troll obviously using several identities on this forum.

Last edited by JeanDupont; Dec 27th 2003 at 6:49 am.
 
Old Dec 27th 2003, 1:32 pm
  #122  
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Originally posted by JeanDupont
Ontheball - perhaps you could include a link to your cut and paste comments so we can see the whole text and not just your selection.
Why are you badmouthing UK? What are you gaining. We all know what its like on here - not perfect but not as bad as you make out.
In my opinion you are merely an unwelcome troll obviously using several identities on this forum.
Jean: Try this site: http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seven...vey/567svr.pdf. Basically, nations were asked to self-report crime rates. I think about 80 countries responded, not all completely (e.g., USA didn't report on any of the violent crime categories - wonder why?).

- if you look at homicides, "England and Wales" has one of the lowest rates, and the US didn't report. As for all prosecutions, England and Wales is at 3,543 per 100,000 population (no data available for 2000, which was the year of the study), compared to, say, NZ (about the same rate), and US (over 5,000 per 100,000) and Finland at 1,787. Attempted homicide? England and Wales 0.79, USA again not listed, S. Africa 22.6, NZ 0.79; again, UK can not be described as higher than USA or highest of all.

As for the high rate of criminal prosecutions, you have to look at the legal systems of the countries. Prosecutions are also a function of how much money is put into the police system, how advanced the legal system is, etc. I think you have to look at incidence of serious crimes to get a better picture of actual crime rate, because these are more likely to result in prosecutions, regardless of country. Assault? No data for USA, England and Wales 246 per 100,000, NZ 341, Spain 1,265.

So, Ontheball is not as on the ball as he/she'd like to pretend. Looking through the report, it seems to me that it is clouded by definition of crime in different countries, the legal system, cultural perceptions of crime (e.g., in some countries rape is rarely reported), etc.

Last edited by dunroving; Dec 27th 2003 at 1:35 pm.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 11:07 am
  #123  
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Originally posted by JeanDupont
Ontheball - perhaps you could include a link to your cut and paste comments so we can see the whole text and not just your selection.
Why are you badmouthing UK? What are you gaining. We all know what its like on here - not perfect but not as bad as you make out.
In my opinion you are merely an unwelcome troll obviously using several identities on this forum.
Excuse me?


It's about presenting a balanced picture - some folk on this part of the forum are clearly in dreamland and if you cannot handle cold, hard facts then I'm afraid that's your own problem.

As for the several identities, may I suggest you seek some medication? Paranoia is not healthy.

Last edited by ontheball; Dec 28th 2003 at 11:10 am.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 12:24 pm
  #124  
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Originally posted by ontheball
Excuse me?

.....if you cannot handle cold, hard facts then I'm afraid that's your own problem....
What about the "cold hafd facts" in my post, taken directly from the survey you claimed showed the UK as having the highest crime rates in all categories? The US wasn't even included in most of the violent crime categories! So much for your cold, hard fact "England's overall crime rate tops that of the United States in virtually every major category, including violent crimes."!

I think most of the regular visitors to this site can handle facts - but get the facts straight first! I think this is a perfect examnple of what Jean was referring to - people posting so-called facts with no reference, that turn out to be more fiction than fact.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 8:19 pm
  #125  
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dunroving,

I suggest you look at the survey more closely.

For example,
"Grand total of recorded crimes" - the last year where both countries have a statistic is 1999. The rate per 100,000 for the USA is 8,517 while for England it's 9,766. Claiming a comparison is invalid because of a missing 2000 figure for the USA is illogical anyway as the trend for the USA was sharply declining since 1995! Also, there are some categories where the 2000 figure for England is missing so it is a nonsensical point.

Category 2.07 "Total recorded assaults" - For 1999, England's is
833 (and trending upwards) while USA's is 805 (and trending downwards).

Category 2.09 "Total recorded robberies" - For 1999, England's is 159 (and trending upwards) while the USA's is 147 (and trending downwards).

Category 2.11 "Total recorded thefts" - For 1999, England's is 3,357 while USA's is 2,502 (and on a sharply declining trend).

Category 2.12 "Total recorded automobile theft" - For 1999, England's is 711, while USA's is only 412!

Category 2.14, "Total recorded frauds", For 1999, England's is 635 while USA's is only 133.

I could go on & on & on as this is a lengthy document. My original quote from the previous post was taken from an article, but the point remains. In alot of different categories, the crime rate per 100,000 people is higher in England than the USA. Further, England's stats frequently display an upward trend, while USA's are often on a downward spiral.

Like I said, the USA did report on violent crime categories - use the 1999 figures rather than 2000. The trend for the USA in many categories is declining anyway (with England's often increasing) so if anything it puts England in a more favourable light by using the 1999 figures!
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 8:29 pm
  #126  
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So why not not leave UK and go and live in the US instead of persistently whining about how bad it is?
See if you can adjust and how long you last before you start complaining about the US.
I've lived in both and one thing I know is that I am much less likely to be shot dead in the UK - and that is more important to me than most other things.
Having said that I have adjusted to life in the US where I carry the means of selfdefence, not by choice but by necessity.
So - if you are in London now - where did you return from? And why?
This is a forum for "moving back to the UK". How do you fit in?
I still believe you are a troll so won't waste much more time giving you any satisfaction.

Last edited by JeanDupont; Dec 28th 2003 at 8:33 pm.
 
Old Dec 28th 2003, 8:37 pm
  #127  
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Originally posted by JeanDupont
So why not not leave UK and go and live in the US instead of persistently whining about how bad it is?
See if you can adjust and how long you last before you start complaining about the US.
I've lived in both and one thing I know is that I am much less likely to be shot dead in the UK - and that is more important to me than most other things.
Having said that I have adjusted to life in the US where I carry the means of selfdefence, not by choice but by necessity.

So - if you are in London now - where did you return from? This is a forum for "moving back to the UK". How do you fit in?
I still believe you are a troll.
Well at least you are being consistent - consistently wrong.

I have been an expat for 7 years having lived in Hong Kong, Italy, and Saudi Arabia. I had to return to England due to the passing away of my father.

Who said I was praising the US? It's a useful comparison as all of us know about the crime rates there.

As I have actually "Moved back to the UK" I have every right to be on this forum. Some people just don't like their precious little ideas being challenged.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 8:55 pm
  #128  
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Originally posted by ontheball
dunroving,

I suggest you look at the survey more closely.

........

Like I said, the USA did report on violent crime categories - use the 1999 figures rather than 2000. The trend for the USA in many categories is declining anyway (with England's often increasing) so if anything it puts England in a more favourable light by using the 1999 figures!
Did you check the link in my post? Again, you give no link for your data. The statistics you cite simply are not in the survey you gave by name, and which is contained in the link in my post. Again, data for the US were not even reported!

And read my post carefully - I didn't make any "nonsensical point" that data were missing for the US in 2000, they were missing PERIOD for the violent crime categories I named - no years, nada. I gave data for "England and Wales" (first you said "UK", now you say "England" - the survey reports England and Wales as a unit, without Scotland and N. Ireland). It doesn't even seem that you know what country you are talking about.

I don't know what you are looking at, but it's not the link I gave - again, which is the link to the survey you stated by name (the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and .....).

You said you read it in a newspaper report - which newspaper? You can cite "statistics" all day, but until you give some sort of citation that can be confirmed, you lack credibility. I've made the point and Jean has made the point, but you keep ignoring it, preferring to call her paranoid - very constructive!

Go to http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seven...vey/567svr.pdfLook at the section "persons prosecuted, by type of crime" - go to p. 178, and tell me how many people in the UUS were prosecuted for murder. I think you'll find the US isn't there....
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 9:12 pm
  #129  
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Originally posted by ontheball
Well at least you are being consistent - consistently wrong.

I have been an expat for 7 years having lived in Hong Kong, Italy, and Saudi Arabia. I had to return to England due to the passing away of my father.

Who said I was praising the US? It's a useful comparison as all of us know about the crime rates there.

As I have actually "Moved back to the UK" I have every right to be on this forum. Some people just don't like their precious little ideas being challenged.
What on earth makes you think returning expats are unaware of the problems that exist in the UK? Your 'cold, hard facts' are nothing I couldn't read in the Daily Mail so why bother posting them here? My life in England bore no resemblance to this anyway (and won't on my return). I sympathise if yours does, but hey, you could always move!
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 9:21 pm
  #130  
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Trouble with "onthe ball" is he posts phrases like (in his last post)
"as all of us know about the crime rates there."
Do we? Bit of an unfounded assumption.
Someone once said to me:
"assume" makes an ass of u & me.

Sad to hear about his father passing away - still, now he's gone "ontheball" can get back to "peaceful" Saudi Arabia (Shame about the lack of freedom, bombs, floggings, beheadings, stonings, AlQuaeda etc there isn't it) or somewhere else he thinks is better than the UK he denigrates.
 
Old Dec 28th 2003, 9:47 pm
  #131  
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Originally posted by ontheball
dunroving,

I suggest you look at the survey more closely.
OK, NOW I see what you are looking at - come on, I need some help here!

Recorded homicides (p. 20 onwards): E & W 1.45 per 100,000; USA 4.55 per 100,000. For comparison: S. Africa 56.59.

Recorded attempted homicides: E & W 1.42; USA No data (for any year); for comparison: Jamaica 38.69.

Recorded homicides with a firearm: E & W 0.12; USA 2.97 (I think that is 25 times E & Wales' rate); for comparison: Thailand 35.94.

Major assaults: E & W 28.72; USA 329.63 (11 times the E & W rate); for comparison: Mexico 172.98.

Assults: E & W 833.72; USA 805.21 (OK, that's close); for comparison: Canada 725.73.

Rapes: E & W 15.96; USA 32.05; for comparison: Seychelles 122.45.


Robberies: E & W 159.95; USA 147.36 (Again, pretty close); for comparison Spain 1332.23.


As you said "I could go on...." So, I'm confused: how do you get from these kinds of statistics to the conclusion that "England's overall crime rate tops that of the United States in virtually every major category, including violent crimes."? And in comparison to many other countries on the list, E & W is tame.....


I notice that in your "selective" reporting, you jumped over the categories that did not support your argument. Like I said, you lack credibility.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 10:03 pm
  #132  
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Dunroving - if I dared to attempt to explain the close statistics for assault and robbery I would maybe come to the conclusion that many assaults and robberies turned into major assaults and homicide in the US as firearms are so widely used there.
I myself have added to those figures to a very small extent a few years ago when I had to defend myself and my assailant did not survive the encounter.

Thailand seemed like a pretty peaceful place when I visited there as a tourist - just shows how wrong a person can be. Thats a lot of homicides in Thailand.
 
Old Dec 28th 2003, 10:57 pm
  #133  
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Hi, apologies for just jumping in here, I don't usually look at returning to uk threads, as we are planning to flit ('emigrate' for the benefit of southerners). I have jumped from page 3 to the end so it may not follow but after a couple of glasses of wine have a revelation. I am reading about everyones analysis on perception of places. When we look back on our childhood/Adulthoood in the UK we see how perfect it was (or that seems the seam of the thread). Is this not because as we are brought up in the UK society we know 'the system', how the government, local government and social services, etc works. We know what to get when we need it, and know where to turn too if we need it. When it doesn't work we get pi***d o**. When moving to a new society as I will be doing that will be alien to me, I will remember the comfort of knowing who or where to turn to. The difficulty in any society is undertanding the procedures and processes whether you need them or not the fact you know them is a comfort (i.e. if I suddenly became deaf in our society, as my mum is, I would automatically know what help is available). I appreciate there are hundreds of other factors but when people emigrate should factor this in when settling and equip themselves to get to know thier rights etc.,

I really do hope you guys coming back to the UK find the happiness inside you are looking for as for me I am not moving for me but for my children and future I can provide for them.

Good luck everyone Jo B
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 11:55 pm
  #134  
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Originally posted by dunroving
Did you check the link in my post? Again, you give no link for your data. The statistics you cite simply are not in the survey you gave by name, and which is contained in the link in my post. Again, data for the US were not even reported!
what are you talking about? The stats I quote above are all from your link!

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seven...vey/567svr.pdf

I even quoted the Category numbers to make it simple to cross-reference.



& yes whenever I said England it obviously referred to England & Wales as anyone could see who looked through the report. Ever heard of abbreviating to save time?

Last edited by ontheball; Dec 28th 2003 at 11:57 pm.
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Old Dec 28th 2003, 11:59 pm
  #135  
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Originally posted by muppetking
What on earth makes you think returning expats are unaware of the problems that exist in the UK?
Because they have been out of the country for years and not personally witnessed the way things are getting worse.

Head-in-the-sand comes to mind.
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