ontheball

You keep reverting to that statement. I've said before it was taken from an article & was not written by me.

The FACT remains England's crime rates in a wide variety of categories is alarming and in many cases, on an upward trend.


Incorrect. I selected the categories that showed the situation is serious in England. Obviously it's not in every category

If anyone lacks credibilty it's people who try and deny the increasing crime problem in england.

ontheball

Who said I'm returning to Saudi Arabia? When matters have settled down here, I will be returning to Italy.

dunroving

OK, This is my (objective) view of the evidence and my own perceptions of the UK:

Anyone who ignores the statistics (e.g., in the United Nations Report) that show clearly that the USA has a higher rate of serious violent crime is deluding themselves. The other data indicate that for less serious crimes, the UK is on a par with the US (note that I stated that in my prior posts; I didn't try to hide anything).

Recent data indicate that the UK's rate of less serious/violent crimes has increased of late, and that in some categories, the US's rate has decreased of late. However, anyone who understands trend analysis realizes that recent trends don't predict future outcomes. If anyone wants to argue against this, I presume they have all their money invested in the stock market (after all, hasn't it increased over the last 12 months?). Look at the trend from 1990 onwards: all crimes recorded in the US have risen from 5,803 per... to 8,517 per... the slight reduction in the past couple of years could be pure statistical artifact, a change in the reporting system, anything other than the start of a true long-term downward trend.

The UN Report has two sections related to incidence of crime, both of which I reported. It's pretty clear from my last post that, unlike Ontheball, I did look closely, and realized that we were looking at two different parts of the report. I cleared this up in my last post. One is of crimes recorded by the police system, the other is of actual prosecutions (i.e., crimes that were legally supported in court, rather than recorded prior to prosecution). The pattern in these two sections is somewhat different, although neither section could be said to conclusively show that violent crime is worse in England and Wales than the USA, or the worst, compared to other countries in the world.

I teach research methods and statistics. If there's one thing worse than people who lie with statistics, it's people who lie or obfuscate about statistics. The data in the UN Report simply do not show what Ontheball is saying they show, i.e., that in almost every category, "including violent crime" (quote), the UK's rate is higher than the US's. He chooses to ignore any part of the report that does not support his argument.

From my own observations of the U.K., I agree that there is an appalling level of petty crimes in many areas, such as vandalism, petty theft, breaking and entering, fly-tipping, etc. It spoils the quality of life when you walk down to the corner shop and have to deal with a bunch of neds making asses out of themselves, or see that the local kids' playset has been burned to the ground for the second time in 12 months. I certainly am not deluding myself that the UK is a rose garden. But I'm also not ignoring the prosecution data in the UN Report, i.e., as I said before, "all prosecutions, England and Wales is at 3,543 per 100,000 population (no data available for 2000, which was the year of the study), compared to, say, NZ (about the same rate), and US (over 5,000 per 100,000)". Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

But I am not stupid enough to think that homicide and serious violent crime, especially gun-related crime, is higher in the UK than US.

This thread has already seen more than its fair share of lengthy "he said she said" diatribe. The evidence is clear in this case, so if it's not clear you, Ontheball, I'm not going to waste any more time trying to persuade you otherwise. I'll let the evidence speak for itself.

ontheball

For the 34th time I've clarified this, my subsequent argument had nothing to do with the UN Report or what you're quoting.

Actually gun-crime has rapidly increased in the UK. Educate yourself, again, by reading this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...24/nguns24.xml
"Gun crime trebles as weapons and drugs flood British cities

Gun crime has almost trebled in London during the past year and is soaring in other British cities, according to Home Office figures obtained by The Telegraph.

Police chiefs fear that Britain is witnessing the kind of cocaine-fuelled violence that burst upon American cities in the 1980s. Cocaine, particularly from Jamaica, now floods into Britain, while the availability of weapons - many of them from eastern Europe - is also increasing.

Detectives in London say that the illegal importation of guns started after the end of the Bosnia conflict and that they are changing hands for as little as £200. During the 10 months to January 31, there were 939 crimes involving firearms in the Metropolitan Police area compared with 322 in the 10 months to the end of January, 2001 - an almost three-fold increase.

In Merseyside there were 57 shootings during the 12 months to last December compared with 15 in the same period the year before. Greater Manchester also recorded a 23 per cent increase in gun crime and there have been rises in Nottinghamshire, Avon and Somerset, West Yorkshire and the Northumbria Police area which covers Newcastle.

Gun crimes during the first 10 months of the annual period have trebled in most of the urban areas which have so far submitted statistics to the Home Office. Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, said gun gangs were spreading across the country whereas, until recently, they were confined to a handful of London boroughs.

Sir John said: "We have to stem the large number of guns coming in. We know you can buy a gun in London for £200 to £300, and that's frightening. The price of hiring or buying a gun has come down because there are more guns circulating. We are having success; we are taking out about 600 guns a year."

The new gun crime figures also show that handgun crime has soared past levels last seen before the Dunblane massacre of 1996 and the ban on the weapons that followed. The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997, the year after Thomas Hamilton, an amateur shooting enthusiast, shot dead 16 schoolchildren, their teacher and himself in Dunblane, Perthshire."



So gun crime has trebled! Another upward trend which leaves yourself looking wide of the mark.

I could name 30 categories of crime whereby the rate for England/Wales is higher than for the USA. If that doesn't concern anybody, then you have lower standards than I hold for myself and my family.

Obviously trends are not necessarily indicative of the future and once again you made a point that was obvious. The fact that many categories in England/Wales are on the increase is disconcerting especially when some of the increases date back to 1995.



:

bondipom

On The Ball what are your suggestions to clear up the problem and are you going to emigrate to get out of gang bang London?

dunroving

Like I said, I'm not going to waste my time.

ontheball

You can't argue with facts anyway. 30 categories of crime where the rate for England/Wales is higher than for the USA.

Coupled with the disturbing trend that gun-related crime has TREBLED.

RoB1833

Yawn!!!

This statistical data is all well and good but I know where I felt safer........
You really can't comment until you've lived both sides personally!

JeanDupont

I don't accept this idiot's so-called statistics however its fair to point out that the gun related homicides in UK are mostly drug dealer shootouts while they tend to be more evenly spread throughout the general population in US.
Consequently those lucky non-drugdealing folk living in UK generally have much less to worry about.
I also won't waste any more time on this troll-thread.

muppetking

What a pathetic generalisation. We have been back regularly thanks.
Head up Uranus comes to mind.

dunroving

Like I said, I'm not going to waste my time - oops, 15 seconds. Damn!

ontheball

These are real crime factual data - whether you care to take them on board is irrelevant.

ontheball

What a pathetic response - no surprise coming from a muppet.

Oh and I can see how someone living on the other side of the world has come back regularly

ontheball

Your response has made Homer Simpson look like an intellectual


These are not "my" statistics. These are official statistics proving the current worsening crime situation in England.

Someone else in dreamland - sad really.

ontheball

Like I said, you can't argue with facts. I rest my case.