Originally Posted by Watt Dabney

I have been following this thread with interest, mostly because my home town is Kidderminster which is near where ezzie is and also cause I'm just plain nosey!!!

Its a shame a bit of a bun fight has ensued on this thread and wonder if maybe because people are trying so hard to convince themselves that either Uk or Oz is better than the other that maybe you are missing another possible reason for the differences in expats children and the resident children of the country in which you reside.

We have been away from the Uk for 7yrs, 6 of those yrs in NZ and 1 yr in Oz. Our children were 7 & 4 when we 1st moved, we have no family outside the Uk and we have never been back. We have however encountered many fresh of the boat and holidaying UK kids, and I have noticed a difference, just as I have noticed some difference with native Oz and NZ kids, and I have a sort of theory which I feel really applies to families who emigrate with kids under 10.

When you move countries you move away from everything you know, people, areas, places. You don't realise how much of a gut instinct you have about your hometown, which is often based on generations of knowledge that you either have yourself or you can tap into from reliable sources such as family and friends.You know which streets/families are rough etc which gives you the reasurance to loosen the reigns and take some risks with your kids freedoms when growing up.
When you emigrate you know noone you know nothing of their history, the areas history, the schools history. Requests from your children for playdates and sleepovers are met with much more caution as you know nothing of the families you are entrusting your children to. Family childcare is no longer available so its do it yourself or commercial care and leaving your kids with a babysitter to go out is a rare occasion and only when you are sure you have found one you can trust. Also every free weekend is spent exploring your new evironment as a family, so bar school, your kids spend most of their time with parents and siblings, becoming a very close knit unit.
I feel that esp but not exclusivley kids that migrate before 10yrs become very family oriented and the process of friend making for them often involves input from their parents in trying to guide them to find good friends. Over time they get quite good at quickly identifying both the good and the bad element in their school and often gravitate to the good kids as they relate better to them. I have certainly seen this in my son who is on his 3rd school in 2 new countries. There have been times when he has encountered holidaying Uk kids and he was quite shocked at their antics and disregard for their parents rules and guidance.

So what I am trying to say if you can get the gist of my ramblings is that I reckon its not Oz or UK kids that are overtly bad/good, but I do think kids who migrated young do seem more family oriented and concious of the effect actions/behaviours can have on the family unit and are less willing to rock the family boat as this is their main sense of security and belonging.

You may all think this is twaddle, but its a different angle on the situation at least.

Originally Posted by Watt Dabney

I have been following this thread with interest, mostly because my home town is Kidderminster which is near where ezzie is and also cause I'm just plain nosey!!!

Its a shame a bit of a bun fight has ensued on this thread and wonder if maybe because people are trying so hard to convince themselves that either Uk or Oz is better than the other that maybe you are missing another possible reason for the differences in expats children and the resident children of the country in which you reside.

We have been away from the Uk for 7yrs, 6 of those yrs in NZ and 1 yr in Oz. Our children were 7 & 4 when we 1st moved, we have no family outside the Uk and we have never been back. We have however encountered many fresh of the boat and holidaying UK kids, and I have noticed a difference, just as I have noticed some difference with native Oz and NZ kids, and I have a sort of theory which I feel really applies to families who emigrate with kids under 10.

When you move countries you move away from everything you know, people, areas, places. You don't realise how much of a gut instinct you have about your hometown, which is often based on generations of knowledge that you either have yourself or you can tap into from reliable sources such as family and friends.You know which streets/families are rough etc which gives you the reasurance to loosen the reigns and take some risks with your kids freedoms when growing up.
When you emigrate you know noone you know nothing of their history, the areas history, the schools history. Requests from your children for playdates and sleepovers are met with much more caution as you know nothing of the families you are entrusting your children to. Family childcare is no longer available so its do it yourself or commercial care and leaving your kids with a babysitter to go out is a rare occasion and only when you are sure you have found one you can trust. Also every free weekend is spent exploring your new evironment as a family, so bar school, your kids spend most of their time with parents and siblings, becoming a very close knit unit.
I feel that esp but not exclusivley kids that migrate before 10yrs become very family oriented and the process of friend making for them often involves input from their parents in trying to guide them to find good friends. Over time they get quite good at quickly identifying both the good and the bad element in their school and often gravitate to the good kids as they relate better to them. I have certainly seen this in my son who is on his 3rd school in 2 new countries. There have been times when he has encountered holidaying Uk kids and he was quite shocked at their antics and disregard for their parents rules and guidance.

So what I am trying to say if you can get the gist of my ramblings is that I reckon its not Oz or UK kids that are overtly bad/good, but I do think kids who migrated young do seem more family oriented and concious of the effect actions/behaviours can have on the family unit and are less willing to rock the family boat as this is their main sense of security and belonging.

You may all think this is twaddle, but its a different angle on the situation at least.

Originally Posted by Fleaflyfloflum

I'd pretty much agree with that.

As you say, kids who emigrate have no outside family network, friends, or any kind of familiarity, which makes them extremely insecure. An complete over reliance on the parents unsues, which really cant be helped.

Originally Posted by TillyG

Kids who emigrate have no friends? Seriously? With all due respect, that's twaddle. DD has loads of friends, as do I, and yes whilst we do not have the extended family network that we may have had in the UK, we're not this tiny insular unit, not at all.

Originally Posted by TillyG

Kids who emigrate have no friends? Seriously? With all due respect, that's twaddle. DD has loads of friends, as do I, and yes whilst we do not have the extended family network that we may have had in the UK, we're not this tiny insular unit, not at all.

Originally Posted by Fleaflyfloflum

No, not twaddle. NB knew what I meant.

Originally Posted by TillyG

Ah, gotcha

I know when we first arrived, it was damned hard... but because we were "new" and "on our own" we all made much more effort to meet people and make friends than we did back in the UK... with hindsight, I regret not making more of an effort in the UK - it's taken moving here to make me realise how a little effort can go a long way - it's been a great learning experience, for all of us

Originally Posted by dingbat

I feel so rejected.... You know how much I post to defend all that is Canadian. As if I would turn my cyber back on a fellow inmate....

Originally Posted by Fleaflyfloflum

I'd pretty much agree with that.

As you say, kids who emigrate have no outside family network, friends, or any kind of familiarity, which makes them extremely insecure. An complete over reliance on the parents unsues, which really cant be helped.

Originally Posted by northernbird

Blimey, what a furore over the use of the word pack. I just meant the majority really, the usual country of destination haters.

Originally Posted by Jules Europe

"The Pack" are a group of people that come together on these forums to trash and tear down any opinion they don`t like or agree with. When this pack gets together, they usually tear into their victim just like a bunch of wild hyenas:curse: Luckily though "The Pack" here are reasonably civilised compared to some forums. "The Pack" usually has a couple of ringleaders that the weaker willed quickly follow for fear of being bullied and ostracized themselves, you could say the behaviour of "The Pack" is a fair reflection of what goes on in everyday life anyway. "The Pack" also relies on fear and intimidation, which surprisingly is actually quite easy to achieve on a public forum. The OP may well have a flawed argument but regardless of "The Pack" she still has the right to express her opinions and observations and I hope she continues and if "The Pack" don`t like it then they shouldn`t respond. Saying that though, if that were the case they would cease to exist and of course nobody wants to cease to exist. They also suffer from the childish notion as well, of always trying to have the last word in any debate/slanging match etc

Originally Posted by pommybird

Exile - I have school age children and I can honestly, hand on heart, say I have LESS worries about them growing up where we live now (East Dorset) than where we lived in Perth and we lived in a bloody affluent suburb - Como.

I agree England is far from perfect - but where is perfect?? There is no Utopia - having lived both in Oz and the UK I would say overall there is little difference in terms of crime/anti social behaviour etc but in terms of the specific areas I lived in - Como vs East Dorset - I feel this is a better environment for my kids - but again that is my personal perspective and experiences. Different things are important to different people.

P.S also can I just say in terms of 'the pack' - FFS this is a discussion forum - if you plaster up your opinions on matters in a public forum I think you have to expect a bit of banter and disagreement - agreed personal comments are not nice but 'a pack' what a load of tosh

Originally Posted by Family5

An excellent, thoroughly enjoyable read created by Izzie that sadly is now being (attempted)hijacked and deliberately ruined by an insignificant, ill informed and insensitive few. Not for the first time have I observed this selfish, immature, single minded and unevidenced diatribe trailed out in response to broad based, balanced articles that in essence say it as it is. An appalling demonstration of limited communication skill in particular the lack of respect and consideration given to other peoples entitlement to a view/opinion. This activity devalues the the significant benefit such forums bring to individuals/families who are seriously researching with a view to making informed decisions about their futures in the context of emigrating.
This post is not intended to further detract from from IZZIES thread. I have no intention of commenting or contributing further. IZZIE we wish you well and thank you for all your informative, well written, well balanced and well intentioned 'reports'.

Originally Posted by Jules Europe

Ah the garden of England but jajajajaja not exactly a world way from Essex, just a river to divide them.

Originally Posted by Black Sheep

Ezzie, if at this point you're thinking 'why bother any more' , I wouldn't be at all surprised . Would be preferable though if you would consider just totally and completely ignoring any of the 'disruptive' (note that self-restraint is being exercised here) comments on this thread, and continuing to post as though those comments and 'commenters' DO NOT EVEN EXIST! If we could all learn to accept as a given that every internet forum is clearly going to attract 'disruptive' elements, then we can sooner collectively evolve our tactics to a point where 'extremists' in any thread are always and without exception ignored... and preferably anyone who engages with them (i.e. 'feeds' them or 'takes their bait') would also be ignored from that point on in the thread, to get the message well and truly across.

So how about we have a go at it here and now? Anyone else up for seeing what happens when those who post personal attacks, and/or rude, intentionally disruptive, unreasonable or bullying comments, etc ... are completely and totally ignored by 'the collective'??

Me, I'm in...

Originally Posted by Jules Europe

I don`t doubt that these problems exist in a lot of 1st world countries and yes, maybe a lot of people are not aware of kids caring for younger siblings etc. I imagine that it is far more common place than many people would like to admit. By the way, I was laughing not at the predicament of these people etc but in your ability to write your diary entries in a somewhat humourous manner. Keep it up And since you have had people support your position, its seems "The Pack" has slunk back into the shadows licking its wounds, but I am sure they`ll be back soon enough.

Originally Posted by St.Georges Girl

Anyone who just throws in words such as "the usual pack", knows exactly who they mean and that, imo, is what disrupts these threads.

Originally Posted by northernbird

If you are going to quote my phrase then at least quote it correctly. I said 'the pack' not 'the usual pack'.

I didn't actually mean anyone in particular, I meant it as a phrase to describe the pack mentality that exists in all parts of this forum when reading something that contradicts their own thoughts and views they proceed to rubbish them and insult them personally because they dared express a different view.