PJ O'Donovan writes:

    > Karl Marx couldn't say it better. Achievers should be penalized in
    > order to subsidize under achievers.

Becoming sick is not normally an individual choice, and illness and poor
health affect everyone equally, given equal levels of medical care.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

PJ O'Donovan writes:

    > In many cases has more to do with the presence or absence of
    > individual self responsibility than the pros and cons of private vs
    > government provided health care.

As you demanded in your previous post, "Statistics please to back up
your claim." Either show the correlation you assert, or stop trying to
use the same request against others. A double standard undermines the
credibility of your arguments.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:

    >>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    >care in
    >> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    > Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    >Australia,
    > I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    >clinics
    > were easily identified by massive cues outside.

There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
---
DFM

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:17:53 +1000, Deep Freud Moors
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >>>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    >>care in
    >>> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    >> Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    >>Australia,
    >> I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    >>clinics
    >> were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    >There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.

Errrr....... DFM - please see your famliy doctor as soon as possible.
Whilst I may be mistaken, I think I see clear signs of Marie Lewis
Syndrome emerging.

There is hope, however - it's not a terminal condition.

:-)

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Go Fig) wrote:

    > Is inaccurate billing much of a discussion point in the UK health
    > delivery system ?

It hardly shows up on the radar because so few people pay personally for
their medical treatment. (I'm not proposing it doesn't *exist* - but it's
not a much-discussed issue.) The professionals most commonly accused of
padding out bills are lawyers and vets, probably.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Keith Willshaw) wrote:


    > Its not just that NHS hospitals dont issue bills most have no
    > mechanism for doing so. Even the private care I had through
    > BUPA was paid by them direct and I never saw a bill
    > amd couldnt telly you what it cost !

I wonder how that works. A relative of mine had substantial cancer
treatment on BUPA last year before she died and certainly did *see* the
bills (or at least a summary) - though she didn't have to pay them. Maybe
it was to keep her abreast of how close she was approaching the maximum
payout?

Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    > care in
    > >> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    > >
    > > Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    > >Australia,
    > > I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    > >clinics
    > > were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    >
    > There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
    > ---
    > DFM

Then I must have seen queues (lines of people waiting to go into
public health clinics in Australia).

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > PJ O'Donovan writes:
    >
    > > In many cases has more to do with the presence or absence of
    > > individual self responsibility than the pros and cons of private vs
    > > government provided health care.
    >



<< As you demanded in your previous post, "Statistics please to back
up
    > your claim." Either show the correlation you assert, or stop trying to
    > use the same request against others. A double standard undermines the
    > credibility of your arguments.>>

A very interesting exercise in semantics.

My "demand" for statistics was in response to the pontification below:

<<*fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
care in
    > the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>

In other words ..ALL.. of the poorest have access to ...GOOD.. health
care
which is impossible to support empirically.

My own post refers to ..MANY...that do not have insurance due to the
absence of individual responsibility which is also impossible to
support empirically. However, the fact that ...SOME...do not have
insurance due to the lack
of individual responsibility is not arguable. The only question not
supportable empirically is how many do not have insurance due to the
absence of individual responsibilty.

On 7 Dec 2003 12:26:05 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:

    >Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >> On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> >>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    >> care in
    >> >> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    >> >
    >> > Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    >> >Australia,
    >> > I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    >> >clinics
    >> > were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    >>
    >> There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
    >> ---
    >> DFM
    >Then I must have seen queues (lines of people waiting to go into
    >public health clinics in Australia).

Queues outside every clinic? I don't think so. You were mistaken.
---
DFM

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] (Keith Willshaw) wrote:
    > > Its not just that NHS hospitals dont issue bills most have no
    > > mechanism for doing so. Even the private care I had through
    > > BUPA was paid by them direct and I never saw a bill
    > > amd couldnt telly you what it cost !
    > I wonder how that works. A relative of mine had substantial cancer
    > treatment on BUPA last year before she died and certainly did *see* the
    > bills (or at least a summary) - though she didn't have to pay them. Maybe
    > it was to keep her abreast of how close she was approaching the maximum
    > payout?

The way it worked in my case was that I passed on the recommendation
for treatment to Bupa, they okayed it and I went in to the Bupa hospital
at Histon and had it. I never saw any bill.

Keith

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:26:52 +0000, Keith Anderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:17:53 +1000, Deep Freud Moors
    ><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
    >>On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >>>>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    >>>care in
    >>>> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    >>> Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    >>>Australia,
    >>> I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    >>>clinics
    >>> were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    >>There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
    >Errrr....... DFM - please see your famliy doctor as soon as possible.
    >Whilst I may be mistaken, I think I see clear signs of Marie Lewis
    >Syndrome emerging.
    >There is hope, however - it's not a terminal condition.

In this instance, PJ is most definitely mistaken, or not telling the
whole story.

I am prepared to acknowledge when I am wrong, but don't believe this
is one of those times. Massives queues outside of public health
clinics are unheard of in Australia.
---
DFM

Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > On 7 Dec 2003 12:26:05 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >
    > >Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > >> On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> >>> *fact* that the poorest indigents still have access to good health
    > care in
    > >> >> the EU, Canada, Oz, etc.>>
    > >> >
    > >> > Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    > >> >Australia,
    > >> > I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    > >> >clinics
    > >> > were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    > >>
    > >> There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
    > >> ---
    > >> DFM
    > >
    > >Then I must have seen queues (lines of people waiting to go into
    > >public health clinics in Australia).
    >
    > Queues outside every clinic? I don't think so. You were mistaken.
    > ---
    > DFM

I did not claim to have seen ..EVERY...clinic in Australia. Driving
through the
towns in Australia, I saw clinics. The clinics I saw were sometimes
located on the main roads through the towns. Sometimes I saw lines of
people attracting my attention as I drove through some towns.
Sometimes as I looked, I then noticed that people were standing in
line to go into public health clinics in Australia.

In some of the same towns. I saw signs indicating private hospitals,
which appeared to be located in the more affluent sections of some of
the same towns.
I must say that I failed to see any lines at the private hospitals
where I have been told by Australians that approx 80% of Australians
seek out when they require health care.

BTW on one trip of 7 to Australia I drove my wife and myself from
Melbourne to Cairns in Feb/ Mar 95. I will never forget driving on the
wrong side of the road, with the steering wheel on the wrong side and
struggling with the manual shift with the left hand. I drove very
slowly and very carefully. Maybe that is why I was able to notice the
queues at some public clinics.

I do not understand why one would be in denial of the possibility that
people in Australia sometimes would have to wait in line to get access
to health care,
merely because Australians have access to Nationalized health care.
Any service will have peaks and valleys relative to supply and demand
and sometimes the service will not be available to immediately meet
the demand.

I have had occasion in our country to find it neccessary to take
family members to the emergency rooms of our private hospitals,
usually in smaller communities in the USA where I have lived.
Sometimes I have gotten immediate attention while other times I have
had to wait for attention (get into the queue) where
the most severe emergencies were given attention first.

Of course we do not have a perfect system as some here would mislead
us to believe we would have if our system was Nationalized.

On 8 Dec 2003 02:33:44 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:

    >Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >> On 7 Dec 2003 12:26:05 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    >>
    >> >Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >> >> On 6 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:

    >> >> > Statistics please to back up your claim. When driving through
    >> >> >Australia,
    >> >> > I saw private hospitals and public health clinics. The public
    >> >> >clinics
    >> >> > were easily identified by massive cues outside.
    >> >>
    >> >> There are no such 'cues' in Australia. You were mistaken.
    >> >> ---
    >> >> DFM
    >> >
    >> >Then I must have seen queues (lines of people waiting to go into
    >> >public health clinics in Australia).
    >>
    >> Queues outside every clinic? I don't think so. You were mistaken.
    >> ---
    >> DFM
    >I did not claim to have seen ..EVERY...clinic in Australia. Driving
    >through the
    >towns in Australia, I saw clinics. The clinics I saw were sometimes
    >located on the main roads through the towns. Sometimes I saw lines of
    >people attracting my attention as I drove through some towns.
    >Sometimes as I looked, I then noticed that people were standing in
    >line to go into public health clinics in Australia.

Utter bullshit. Waiting rooms exist, lines of people do not.

    >In some of the same towns. I saw signs indicating private hospitals,
    >which appeared to be located in the more affluent sections of some of
    >the same towns.
    >I must say that I failed to see any lines at the private hospitals
    >where I have been told by Australians that approx 80% of Australians
    >seek out when they require health care.

And given you were a visitor, how could you immediately identify the
type of hospital as you drove past? They do not have big signs on them
identifying them as such. Oh, they have big queues out the front,
don't they...

    >BTW on one trip of 7 to Australia I drove my wife and myself from
    >Melbourne to Cairns in Feb/ Mar 95. I will never forget driving on the
    >wrong side of the road, with the steering wheel on the wrong side and
    >struggling with the manual shift with the left hand. I drove very
    >slowly and very carefully. Maybe that is why I was able to notice the
    >queues at some public clinics.

You were having trouble driving, yet you still made a point of looking
at hospitals to note the 'queues'?

    >I do not understand why one would be in denial of the possibility that
    >people in Australia sometimes would have to wait in line to get access
    >to health care,

Who is in denial? No-one has ever stated that.

    >merely because Australians have access to Nationalized health care.
    >Any service will have peaks and valleys relative to supply and demand
    >and sometimes the service will not be available to immediately meet
    >the demand.

Blah blah peaks... blah blah valleys... supply demand .... blah....

You forgot to include the word 'freedom'.

    >I have had occasion in our country to find it neccessary to take
    >family members to the emergency rooms of our private hospitals,
    >usually in smaller communities in the USA where I have lived.
    >Sometimes I have gotten immediate attention while other times I have
    >had to wait for attention (get into the queue) where
    >the most severe emergencies were given attention first.
    >Of course we do not have a perfect system as some here would mislead
    >us to believe we would have if our system was Nationalized.

Apparently you are having some issues. It really bothers you that
Australia has actually got a good national health system, eh! How
could an idea that is shunned by America actually work well? Curiouser
and curiouser...

Reading what you wrote it is as plain as day that you are imagining
that someone gloated about Australia having a perfect health system.
No-one ever said that.

And you really shouldn't make stuff up, it's most unbecoming.
---
DFM

In article <[email protected]>,
deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu (Deep Freud Moors) wrote:

    > On 8 Dec 2003 02:33:44 -0800, [email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:
    > >I did not claim to have seen ..EVERY...clinic in Australia. Driving
    > >through the
    > >towns in Australia, I saw clinics. The clinics I saw were sometimes
    > >located on the main roads through the towns. Sometimes I saw lines of
    > >people attracting my attention as I drove through some towns.
    > >Sometimes as I looked, I then noticed that people were standing in
    > >line to go into public health clinics in Australia.
    >
    > Utter bullshit. Waiting rooms exist, lines of people do not.

I suppose it's possible they were waiting outside for the clinic to open
first thing in the morning. A few people, maybe, but queues per se
unlikely...

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (PJ O'Donovan) wrote:

    > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<a%[email protected] k.net>...
    > > PJ O'Donovan wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > Your pontification reeks of inconsistency. We are at the "top"
    > > > technologically
    > > > but we have the "worst" delivery????
    > > >
    > > > Wishful thinking on your part. Many wealthy European consider their
    > > > "national"
    > > > health care as the provider of last resort and those that can afford
    > > > it seek private care. Many of the wealthiest come here and pay for the
    > > > service.
    > >
    > >
    > >> Screw the "wealthiest" - they can always take care of themselves.
    > >>
    >
    > Karl Marx couldn't say it better. Achievers should be penalized in
    > order
    > to subsidize under achievers.
    >

in the US at least achievers are only a small fraction of the wealthy --
most great fortunes recently have been made by people cheating and using
their position to skim money off of productive systems