In article <[email protected]>,
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Jenn writes:
    >
    > > The mistake in Paris was in not heeding public health officials who
    > > warned of the potential for disaster and doing something about it.
    >
    > Just exactly what could anyone have done about it?
    >
    > > In the US when there is a heat wave in a northern city, steps are taken
    > > to provide fans, check on and often provide transportation to day time
    > > cool sites for the poor elderly who might not be able to fend for
    > > themselves.
    >
    > Fans won't work at 108° F and 60% humidity in closed spaces.
    >
    > > You don't need air conditioning in Paris and London -- but you do need
    > > to be alert to situations where vulnerable people need assistance.
    >
    > You need air conditioning to provide adequate cooling in extreme heat.

you don't need to air condition homes in areas where it is rarely hot --
you do need cool places people can go in an emergency as I noted

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (XOR) wrote:

    > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > > XOR writes:
    > >
    > > > How many people died in Portugal?
    > >
    > > I don't know.
    > >
    > > > Or is *each and every* home in Portugal air conditioned,
    > > > as supposedly it is in the US?
    > >
    >
    > >and social habits and structures
    > > are built with higher temperatures in mind.
    >
    > Social habits and stuctures? You mean buildings *can* be built that
    > aren't entirely dependent upon a/c in such climes? You mean one can
    > adjust one's lifestyle to deal with higher temperatures?
    >
    > Uh oh, I think you just *might* be admitting that there are other
    > elements to survival in the heat.

has it escaped you that the least productive parts of the world -- and
generally those with the lowest standard of living are hot? it is hard
to get much done in the heat --

In article <[email protected]>,
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:38:41 -0500, Jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >another knee jerk anti-American --- is there anyone who is confused when
    > >they see 105degrees? or 41 for that matter?
    >
    > Me, for one. Although sometimes context can make it clear, and
    > sometimes not.
    >
    > ************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
    > * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
    > * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *



yeah right -- in a discussion of heat deaths you are confused when you
see 105 or 41 uh huh

On 22 Aug 2003 01:32:36 -0700, [email protected] (XOR) wrote:

    >Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >> Fans won't work at 108° F and 60% humidity in closed spaces.
    >Do apartment units in Paris not have windows?

I grew up in the midwest, or at least northeast Ohio, before air
conditioning became common, and we had no air conditioning in our
house. Every summer borught its week-long heat wave, and temps
during periods nto considered "heat wave" could be pretty high. I
remember insufferable nights when the windows were open and I
still laid in a pool of wet sheet from perspiration. Windows can
pretty ineffective. Under high temperature high humidity
conditions even fans offer only limited relief.

A bit of a breeze can help if you can open windows, but to be of
real help one needs to have windows open on both sides of the
building. many flats and apartments only have windows on one side
unless they are large enough to run through to opposite sides of
the building.

Remember, too, that opening windows allows hot outside air to
enter, and is of real use only if it is replacing interior air at
a significantly higher temperature, or helping to reduce interior
humidity, something that doesn't work if the outside air is also
quite humid.

I also went to school in the days before air conditioning, in the
old school buildings with the high ceilings and tall windows that
were opened top and bottom to provide some convectionary air
movement. 25 children and a teacher in a room can create a lot of
heat and the convection of outside air inward through the bottom
of the window and ourward hot air movement at the top helped
mitigate the accumulation of bodily heat, but the fact is that
the air coming in the bottom of the window was still in the range
of 90F-100F.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On 22 Aug 2003 08:55:23 -0700, [email protected] (XOR) wrote:

    >"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> Children riding in school buses
    >> became so dehydrated and nauseous that they had to be hosed down by the Fire
    >> Department.
    >Ok, FTR I am not in any way making light of the situation in Paris
    >currently or in Chicago in (1985). I fully recognise that the
    >conditions experienced were severe *for that region* and have never
    >suggested otherwise.
    >Now, that said, the above reminded me of something, and that is that
    >it is such measures that are *perfectly* acceptable, natural, and
    >useful in such circumstances. Hosing down a person to cool off seems
    >much more realistic than trying to get them to work in a suit and
    >tie....
    >This reminded me of being in the Grand Canyon (in the US) on a
    >particularly hot weekend (it reached ~ 110F that afternoon), hiking
    >from the bottom of the Canyon. On one of the heavily used trails,
    >there is a water stop because that trail runs near a creek. There is a
    >large hose, normally used to hose down the mules, but, in such
    >conditions, used to hose down people. Ah, our small group took to
    >hosing ourselves down a few times in the 30 mins we stayed there (one
    >problem with quick drying hiking gear...). It was wonderful!!!! I
    >never thought having a hose sprayed on my would be so nice :-)

The Grand Canyon is in a very large desert and the humidity tends
to be rather low; 10% would be common. Under those conditions the
cooling effect of being wet and then drying can be quite striking
with the evaporation being very effective for cooling, but, as
you say, it's short-lived and you dry off rather quickly. Here in
these parts the temperature can be 105F when you climb out of the
pool and for several minutes you will be shivering with goose
bumps.

Getting hosed down in a big city when the temp is 105F and the
humidity close to 100% is a whole other ball game. If the temp of
the water is low you will get momentary cooling, but before long
your wet clothes will be hot and wet, and will remain so for
quite some time, not a pleasant condition to be in at all.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Children riding in school buses
    > became so dehydrated and nauseous that they had to be hosed down by the Fire
    > Department.


Ok, FTR I am not in any way making light of the situation in Paris
currently or in Chicago in (1985). I fully recognise that the
conditions experienced were severe *for that region* and have never
suggested otherwise.

Now, that said, the above reminded me of something, and that is that
it is such measures that are *perfectly* acceptable, natural, and
useful in such circumstances. Hosing down a person to cool off seems
much more realistic than trying to get them to work in a suit and
tie....

This reminded me of being in the Grand Canyon (in the US) on a
particularly hot weekend (it reached ~ 110F that afternoon), hiking
from the bottom of the Canyon. On one of the heavily used trails,
there is a water stop because that trail runs near a creek. There is a
large hose, normally used to hose down the mules, but, in such
conditions, used to hose down people. Ah, our small group took to
hosing ourselves down a few times in the 30 mins we stayed there (one
problem with quick drying hiking gear...). It was wonderful!!!! I
never thought having a hose sprayed on my would be so nice :-)

Point is simply that, in such conditions, you do whatever it is you
need to do. No, 110F isn't extreme in places already equipped to
handle it (and that is NOT due only to the presence of a/c), but in
places not accustomed to ever seeing more than 80F, then yes, extreme
measures must be taken. Like, maybe don't leave elderly grandma alone
in her unventilated 5-th floor walk up apartment while you go on
holiday...make sure she has water, adequate help to get food/drink so
she doesn't have to exert much energy to make it thru it... And
maybe, heed public health warnings - learn that you CAN NOT function
like 'normal' in such conditions. Would you act like it's the same
every day if it was a fire or flood raging thru the city?

FWIW - just saw figures on Portugal. At the moment, currrent death
tally is 1300 people due to heat. The authorities appear to be patting
themselves on the back that it wasn't nearly as bad as the last heat
wave, because the Public Health mechanisms went into place, and people
heeded them. The article (AP or some such) also commented "compare to
France...." Anyone have estimates on the % of the population that is
compared to France?

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > Jenn writes:
    >
    > > The mistake in Paris was in not heeding public health officials who
    > > warned of the potential for disaster and doing something about it.
    >
    > Just exactly what could anyone have done about it?

For starters, maybe don't go away on holiday whilst grandma is baking
in he flat, left to do her own shopping, walking around the city, etc
(I recognise this may be a cultural issue).

Provide fans. Identify the elderly - who are at risk and make sure
they have what they need - water, rehydrating solutions (this is the
MAIN cause of heatstroke), make sure there is someone to check on
them. Surely these people had neighbors??? Someone to do their
shopping so they didn't have to exert energy. Bring ice. Bring water.
Make sure there is adequate ventilation - surely there are windows???

Open up air conditioned buildings to the public. Hey, Mxsmanic, since
you have a/c in your place, did you invite all your elderly neighbours
over throughout the heat wave, to help them get thru it? You asked
what one would do to 'save the 13000 people" in the next heat wave. I
would assume 13000 can't all fit in to your flat, but I presume yours
was open to any one and everyone who needed it. Perhaps you saved 50,
or 100 of your neighbors? Because of course you know all your elderly
neighbours and look out for them.

Shift schedules - work in the evening, open shops in the evening, so
people can get to them when it's cooler out. I recall in Spain, at
first I thought it out to see kids (and their parents) out on the
playgrounds at midnight. But then quickly realised that when it's 40C
midday, no one wants to exert much energy. Then this made perfect
sense.


*Change of lifestyle*. A/c merely allows you to continue a temperate
lifestyle in a totally artificial environment. It doesn't always work
because it is dependent upon other resources not *always* available.

All of the above are minimally taxing on the environment, extremely
inexpensive, and easily put into place in extreme, but rare
circumstances.

On 22/08/03 18:10, in article
[email protected], "XOR" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >> Jenn writes:
    >>
    >>> The mistake in Paris was in not heeding public health officials who
    >>> warned of the potential for disaster and doing something about it.
    >>
    >> Just exactly what could anyone have done about it?
    >
    > For starters, maybe don't go away on holiday whilst grandma is baking
    > in he flat, left to do her own shopping, walking around the city, etc
    > (I recognise this may be a cultural issue).

50% of the deaths occurred in retirement facilities, 20% were
those living alone.

We were here in Paris, I am over 70. The temperature hit 40-42,
which is over 100. We already had a fan so we did OK.

Next, I don`t know any old people who died not anybody who
knew anybody who died.

The oldest person in our building is 90, he came out OK.
Our neighbor's mother, 95 and by herself, came through OK.

    > Provide fans.

The stores ran out of them as in the past. We have had other
heat waves in Paris, less severe and of shorter duration, we
get one about every 10-15 years. People don`t buy fans until
the heat wave comes.

August in Paris is a tough time, one`s usual stores are closed
down, the concierges are gone, if one has one, we do.

I visited my doctor just as the wave was hitting but had no
need to call on him again. He said "drink plenty of water".

I did not need that advice since my father died of dehydration
in a California nursing home years ago. He is the only person
I know who died of heat exhaustion (again, in California).

    > Identify the elderly - who are at risk and make sure
    > they have what they need - water, rehydrating solutions (this is the
    > MAIN cause of heatstroke), make sure there is someone to check on
    > them. Surely these people had neighbors??? Someone to do their
    > shopping so they didn't have to exert energy. Bring ice. Bring water.
    > Make sure there is adequate ventilation - surely there are windows???

Who does all of this in a half empty city in August???

Do you live in Paris, by the way??

    > Open up air conditioned buildings to the public.

Like where? This is a sometimes situation in Paris!

    > Hey, Mxsmanic, since you have a/c in your place, did you
    > invite all your elderly neighbours over throughout the heat wave,
    > to help them get thru it?

We don`t have air conditioning. The only person I know that does
is American, living on the Avenue George V. Her's broke down during
the heat wave! No repairs available until fall!


    > Shift schedules - work in the evening, open shops in the evening, so
    > people can get to them when it's cooler out. I recall in Spain,

Nobody is working in Paris in August! Our local Moroccan grocer
usually closes between 2-6 PM anyway. He was open.

We all hunkered down.

By the way, here is a short history of US heat waves

*******


History of Heat waves in the USA

Many older Americans remember the smothering heat of the 1930s, when drought
and numerous long heatwaves created what was known as the ŒDust Bowl¹
decade.  It destroyed farms throughout the mid-west states, driving farmers
from their land and killing nearly 15,000 people in 10 years. ÂÂ

Sudden, violent disasters like cyclones and bushfires focus public attention
while tortuous heatwaves can affect much larger areas, often leaving a
greater, but more scattered, toll.  It was in 1900 when a hurricane killed
6,000 in Galveston, Texas, an event often ranked as America¹s worst natural
disaster.  Yet the very next year, in July, a heatwave in the mid-west
ultimately cost 9,508 lives.  Similarly, Los Angeles region heatwaves
resulted in 546 deaths in 1939, 946 in 1955 and 580 again in 1963.  Thus,
each of these little-remembered events killed more people than the very
famous San Francisco earthquake and fire of 1906, which took 452 lives.

*****

We remember LA in 1955, newly married, no air conditioning and 115 degrees.

I remember coming across Death Valley by car in July of 1938, thinking
I would die.

What we just had was a cake walk in comparison.

Earl

    > Our neighbor's mother, 95 and by herself, came through OK.
    >
    > > Provide fans.
    >
    > The stores ran out of them as in the past. We have had other
    > heat waves in Paris, less severe and of shorter duration, we
    > get one about every 10-15 years. People don`t buy fans until
    > the heat wave comes.

the stores ran out of them -- so the public health officials should have
seen that they were acquired and available


    >
    > > Open up air conditioned buildings to the public.
    >
    > Like where? This is a sometimes situation in Paris!

I spent much of the heat wave in Paris at the Louvre, and the Pompidou
and d'Orsay -- and in movie theaters at Les Halles -- all of these
places are very big and air conditoned. Busing elderly in overheated
fanless apartments to any of these places during the afternoon might
have helped some.

Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote:

(snip)

    >> Provide fans.
    >The stores ran out of them as in the past. We have had other
    >heat waves in Paris, less severe and of shorter duration, we
    >get one about every 10-15 years. People don`t buy fans until
    >the heat wave comes.

(snip)

Fans are good for modest high temperatures, but can sometimes be counter
productive for avoiding death. They don't slow down the rate of water loss
leading to dehydration, and can often fool a person into not worrying
because they're not drenched in sweat.

I made a few other comments in your later post.

Zane

"Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in news:REc1b.2700$lw4.1815
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

    >> Even with all the air conditioning I remember hearing about people
    >> dying in Chicago during a heat wave.
    >
    > I believe those were older people living in apartments with no AC.

Sorry, I meant to say "Even with all the air conditioning available in the
US, there are still people who died in Chicago heat waves due to the fact
that they didn't have air conditioning"...

Just like the people in France who died during this heat wave.

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > XOR writes:
    >
    >> How many people died in Portugal?
    >
    > I don't know.
    >
    >> Or is *each and every* home in Portugal air conditioned,
    >> as supposedly it is in the US?
    >
    > Air conditioning is more widely used, and social habits and structures
    > are built with higher temperatures in mind. However, Portugal had its
    > share of problems, with temperatures reaching 117° F.
    >

Air conditioning is more widely used in Portugal?
I don't think so!

"Jenn" wrote
    | > > Provide fans.
    | > The stores ran out of them as in the past.
    | the stores ran out of them -- so the public health officials should
    | have seen that they were acquired and available

Public health officials can't wave a magic wand and whistle up fans out of
thin air.

Here in UK, one of the biggest chain stores (Argos) issued their new
Autumn/Winter catalogue about a week before the heatwave came. Winter
catalogue, so christmas trees and fairy lights, not fans for summer. They
would have set their catalogue issue date months in advance, and wound down
orders of summer items with the manufacturers and importers.

Owain

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
    > Lennart Petersen a dit dans rec.travel.europe :
    >
    >
    > >> another knee jerk anti-American --- is there anyone who is confused when
    > >> they see 105degrees? or 41 for that matter?
    > > 41 at least is confusing. But why is it so difficult to just add on a
    > > C or F ?
    > > So what about 16 as the actual temperature is outdoor here ?
    > > Think it's confusing both ways.
    >
    > In international groups, one would assume that standard international units
    > are used.

The OP was quoting a US newspaper. It's reasonable to assume that a US
newspaper would express temperature in degrees F.

===
Steve
Shoreline, Washington USA
[email protected]
22 Aug 2003, 1624 PDT

Earl Evleth <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BB6C25CD.1252B%[email protected]>...
    > On 22/08/03 18:10, in article
    > [email protected], "XOR" <[email protected]>

    > > For starters, maybe don't go away on holiday whilst grandma is baking
    > > in he flat, left to do her own shopping, walking around the city, etc
    > > (I recognise this may be a cultural issue).
    >
    > 50% of the deaths occurred in retirement facilities, 20% were
    > those living alone.

Really? I'm not arguing the point, just surprised, as the reports I've
read indicated otherwise - that the vast majority were people living
alone. Many who had family on holiday (and families,upon learning of
the deaths, postponed funerals until after the holiday, which also
contributed to the morgue overflow). However, I am dependent for
information entirely upon international media sources, which I
recognise may not be accurate.


    > We were here in Paris, I am over 70. The temperature hit 40-42,
    > which is over 100. We already had a fan so we did OK.

That's great to hear!

    > Next, I don`t know any old people who died not anybody who
    > knew anybody who died.

That's great too.

    > > Provide fans.
    >
    > The stores ran out of them as in the past. We have had other
    > heat waves in Paris, less severe and of shorter duration, we
    > get one about every 10-15 years. People don`t buy fans until
    > the heat wave comes.

I am not surprised - I was in the UK in 95 during a heatwave and fans
could not be found anywhere.

But this is where the govt comes in I think. Get in action to import
them from somewhere not similarly affected, asap, and deliver them to
the elderly. I wouldn't expect the elderly people to *have* to go out
to buy them. Not a perfect solution,but something that can and should
be done in such a crisis.

    > I visited my doctor just as the wave was hitting but had no
    > need to call on him again. He said "drink plenty of water".

That was good advice, since the cause of death in the heat is often
dehydration, and people don't always feel thristy.

    > I did not need that advice since my father died of dehydration
    > in a California nursing home years ago. He is the only person
    > I know who died of heat exhaustion (again, in California).

I am sorry to hear that. My 70 yrs + parents live in Southern
California and have had their share of heat waves.

    > > Identify the elderly - who are at risk and make sure
    > > they have what they need - water, rehydrating solutions (this is the
    > > MAIN cause of heatstroke), make sure there is someone to check on
    > > them. Surely these people had neighbors??? Someone to do their
    > > shopping so they didn't have to exert energy. Bring ice. Bring water.
    > > Make sure there is adequate ventilation - surely there are windows???
    >
    > Who does all of this in a half empty city in August???

Mxsmanic asked what could be done. This is what could be done - if
public health officials know people are away, and there is a crisis
brewing, then someone has to step in and make the effort. Actually, I
wouldn't depend entirely upon public officials, I would expect
families to do the same.

    > Do you live in Paris, by the way??

No. I live in a much hotter climate (without a/c).

    > > Hey, Mxsmanic, since you have a/c in your place, did you
    > > invite all your elderly neighbours over throughout the heat wave,
    > > to help them get thru it?
    >
    > We don`t have air conditioning. The only person I know that does
    > is American, living on the Avenue George V. Her's broke down during
    > the heat wave! No repairs available until fall!

Mxsmanic, to whom I was replying, has said he has air con.

I think you just proved the point I was trying to make to Mxsmanic,
who has been insisting that a/c must be installed everywhere in Paris,
and that mankind can not survive without a/c at temps more than 35C.
My argument has been that such total dependence upon a/c is not wise.


    >
    > > Shift schedules - work in the evening, open shops in the evening, so
    > > people can get to them when it's cooler out. I recall in Spain,
    >
    > Nobody is working in Paris in August! Our local Moroccan grocer
    > usually closes between 2-6 PM anyway. He was open.

Again, Mxsmanic has been insisting that part of the problem was
companies/bosses who adhere to a strict dress code of suit and tie and
expected people to work as normal during the heat wave.

Thank you for clarifying.

    > We all hunkered down.

As one must do in extreme situations, Glad to hear you managed ok.

    > We remember LA in 1955, newly married, no air conditioning and 115 degrees.

heh, I will have to ask my parents about that. They married in 1955 as
well and drove across the desert - on the way to see family.

    > I remember coming across Death Valley by car in July of 1938, thinking
    > I would die.

We often drove from So Cal across the country as a family (of 10) in
assorted types of vehicles. No a/c of course, tho my dad would have
refused to use it - as he does in more recent years - having seen
far too many cars stranded, having overheated in the desert due to
the a/c... We always left in the evening, so that the bulk of the
desert driving was during the night.

    > What we just had was a cake walk in comparison.

I'm glad to hear it can be put into perspective.