"Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]. net>...
    > > I can't remember seeing any curb cuts. Curbs are often very high.
    > > Streets are often crossed by unerground tunnels. I can't recall seeing
    > > any wheelchair ramps or elevators at the tunnel entrances.
    >
    > Actually there is a ramp - of sorts! Someone installed two steel
    > strips running down the stairs, and if the wheelchair stays perfectly
    > straight it will remain on the strips. But if a wheel falls off, you will
    > take a tumble.

You're right, I've seen these here and there. But they seem designed
with prams in mind, rather than whelchairs.

Bjorn

On 13 Sep 2004 13:22:08 -0700, [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote:

    >"Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]. net>...
    >> > I can't remember seeing any curb cuts. Curbs are often very high.
    >> > Streets are often crossed by unerground tunnels. I can't recall seeing
    >> > any wheelchair ramps or elevators at the tunnel entrances.
    >>
    >> Actually there is a ramp - of sorts! Someone installed two steel
    >> strips running down the stairs, and if the wheelchair stays perfectly
    >> straight it will remain on the strips. But if a wheel falls off, you will
    >> take a tumble.
    >You're right, I've seen these here and there. But they seem designed
    >with prams in mind, rather than whelchairs.
    >Bjorn

I've seen them in Denmark. I tried one once. I will never try again!
I think you are correct these are for prams or strollers, not
wheelchairs.

    > Remember that Moscow main streets are crossed through tunnels.
    > I have several times seen bewildered visitors desperately trying to
    > cross the road and risking their lives trying to run between cars, not
    > realising that they should look for the nearest tunnel instead.

And those tunnels are so Russian! People are selling CDs, drinks,
magazines, and even shoes down there. Also, the entrances for the
metro are generally in those tunnels so visitors need to get used to
using them. The above is also true of St. Petersburg.


Pete

    >> Actually there is a ramp - of sorts! Someone installed two steel
    >> strips running down the stairs, and if the wheelchair stays perfectly
    >> straight it will remain on the strips. But if a wheel falls off, you
    >> will
    >> take a tumble.
    > You're right, I've seen these here and there. But they seem designed
    > with prams in mind, rather than whelchairs.

I never thought of prams. I think you are correct. I have no
experience with wheelchairs (fortunately!) or prams.


Pete

Deep Flawed Muslim wrote:

    > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person. I don't think St
    > Peter would be too bad, but Moscow definitely sounds like a nightmare
    > of a place to take someone in a wheelchair.


Indeed. The lack of facilities for differently - abled people in Russia
stems from the old Soviet practice of keeping "deformed" people out of sight
and out of mind by institutionalizing them. The Soviets simply wanted these
people out of the way...and in the "New Russia" old habits die hard. It's
an attitude that most if not all totalitarian states share (present - day
China is also a perfect example of this, not to mention such stalwarts at
National Socialist Germany). Human life in both China and in Russia is
considered to be pretty cheap, of little value actually, especially of the
"crippled" variety.

Somewhat of an exception was made for disabled WWII vets, but by and large
the Soviets treated the handicapped like human rejects...in their striving
for a "perfect" society the USSR had no room for such folks despoiling their
happy socialist paradise. "The "New Soviet Man" had to be a perfect mental
*and* physical specimen :-)

--
Best
Greg

[email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > "Felice Friese" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<W371d.290422$8_6.249695@attbi_s04>...
    > > "Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected] om...
    > > > "Felice Friese" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<1u%0d.30976$MQ5.16481@attbi_s52>...
    > > > > Can someone tell me whether it would be practical to take to Moscow and
    > St.
    > > > > Petersburg someone who walks with crutches and, when necessary, uses a
    > > > > travel wheelchair? I have emailed my (highly regarded) tour group but
    > have
    > > > > not yet heard from them, but I would like to hear from someone who has
    > > > > personal knowledge of accessibility in these two cities in regard to
    > curb
    > > > > cuts, ramps, etc. We will certainly appreciate any help you can give us.
    > > > > Thanks.
    > > >
    > > > I can't remember seeing any curb cuts. Curbs are often very high.
    > > > Streets are often crossed by unerground tunnels. I can't recall seeing
    > > > any wheelchair ramps or elevators at the tunnel entrances. Overall, my
    > > > feeling is that such a visit would be an ordeal.
    > > >
    > > > Bjorn
    > >
    > > I think you're right, Bjorn. This could be more of an ordeal than we ever
    > > thought. Maybe I'll have to settle for bringing her a magnificent souvenir!
    >
    > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    >
    > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.

"Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?

Bjorn

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] nk.net>...
    > Deep Flawed Muslim wrote:
    >
    > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > >
    > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person. I don't think St
    > > Peter would be too bad, but Moscow definitely sounds like a nightmare
    > > of a place to take someone in a wheelchair.
    >
    >
    > Indeed. The lack of facilities for differently - abled people in Russia
    > stems from the old Soviet practice of keeping "deformed" people out of sight
    > and out of mind by institutionalizing them. The Soviets simply wanted these
    > people out of the way...and in the "New Russia" old habits die hard. It's
    > an attitude that most if not all totalitarian states share (present - day
    > China is also a perfect example of this, not to mention such stalwarts at
    > National Socialist Germany). Human life in both China and in Russia is
    > considered to be pretty cheap, of little value actually, especially of the
    > "crippled" variety.
    >
    > Somewhat of an exception was made for disabled WWII vets, but by and large
    > the Soviets treated the handicapped like human rejects...in their striving
    > for a "perfect" society the USSR had no room for such folks despoiling their
    > happy socialist paradise. "The "New Soviet Man" had to be a perfect mental
    > *and* physical specimen :-)

Methinks you excaggerate somewhat. If Soviet society had "no room for
such folks", why does each and every old Soviet bus I ride have a
clearly marked "mesta delya invalidov" (seating for the handicapped)?

Bjorn

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:31:05 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Remember that Moscow main streets are crossed through tunnels.
    >> I have several times seen bewildered visitors desperately trying to
    >> cross the road and risking their lives trying to run between cars, not
    >> realising that they should look for the nearest tunnel instead.
    >And those tunnels are so Russian! People are selling CDs, drinks,
    >magazines, and even shoes down there. Also, the entrances for the
    >metro are generally in those tunnels so visitors need to get used to
    >using them. The above is also true of St. Petersburg.

In London the homeless live in them.

<[email protected]> wrote
    | >And those tunnels are so Russian! People are selling CDs,
    | >drinks, magazines, and even shoes down there.
    | In London the homeless live in them.

Perhaps London tunnel dwellers should learn some enterpreneurial skills from
their Russian counterparts.

Owain

[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...

    > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > >
    > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    >
    > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?

Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
place, and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white. Once you get
there, you have to endure customs, and try to get to your destination
without being ripped off too much. Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
someone to rip off. And that's just the start.

There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money. This is
something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.

Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
prices if you don't speak the language. And of course not many folk do
speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you from
your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets. In fact, it
seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local. You
definitely get the bare minimum you pay for when it comes to food.

OK, I could go on, but I think you get the idea of what I am saying.
Harrowing? Perhaps that's just slightly too strong, but it's certainly
a thankless place to visit, and for the effort required, Moscow is
very poor value in my opinion.
---
DFM

[email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    >
    > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > >
    > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > >
    > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    >
    > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
    > place,

You are excaggerating.

    > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.

Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply for
a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?

    > Once you get
    > there, you have to endure customs,

I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.

    > and try to get to your destination
    > without being ripped off too much.

I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.

    > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
    > someone to rip off.

That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.

    > And that's just the start.
    >
    > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,

Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia even
once.

    > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.

There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
German, etc, major cities have more beggars.

    > This is
    > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.
    >
    > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
    > prices if you don't speak the language.

Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are reasonable
anyway.

    > And of course not many folk do
    > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you from
    > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.

It varies. As everywhere else.

    > In fact, it
    > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.

They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
other places.

    > You
    > definitely get the bare minimum you pay for when it comes to food.
    >
    > OK, I could go on, but I think you get the idea of what I am saying.

I get the idea, but I completely disagree. Your descriptions do not
fit my experiences.

    > Harrowing? Perhaps that's just slightly too strong, but it's certainly
    > a thankless place to visit, and for the effort required, Moscow is
    > very poor value in my opinion.

You're entitled to it, of course.

Bjorn

"Owain" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > <[email protected]> wrote
    > | >And those tunnels are so Russian! People are selling CDs,
    > | >drinks, magazines, and even shoes down there.
    > | In London the homeless live in them.
    >
    > Perhaps London tunnel dwellers should learn some enterpreneurial skills from
    > their Russian counterparts.

Many tunnels in western cities are also inhabited by various shops, so
that some of them are like underground malls. The main differences are
simply that the Russian tunnel shops are smaller and more numerous
than their western counterparts.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > Methinks you excaggerate somewhat. If Soviet society had "no room for
    > such folks", why does each and every old Soviet bus I ride have a
    > clearly marked "mesta delya invalidov" (seating for the handicapped)?

They are for those old maimed Soviet citizen survivors of "The Great
Patriotic War" ;-)

--
Best
Greg

"Felice Friese" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<1u%0d.30976$MQ5.16481@attbi_s52>...
    > Can someone tell me whether it would be practical to take to Moscow and St.
    > Petersburg someone who walks with crutches and, when necessary, uses a
    > travel wheelchair?

St Petersburg is not a practical place to use a wheelchair. As good as
no places indoors have kept wheelchairs in mind and - depending on
where you are from - you will probably find that houses normally have
more and higher tresholds in St Petersburg than you are used to at
home. In short handicapped will use a lot of crutches. If they are as
motivated to go as they think it is worth it go, if not (I got the
understanding that that it was not the handicapped person that wanted
to se St. Petersburg in the first place) it is may be a better idea to
choose another destination.

    > I have emailed my (highly regarded) tour group but have
    > not yet heard from them.

This is the Russian way of answering no to an email.

Jan

Thank you all so much for your honest and helpful comments. My daughter and
I were not surprised that most of you think Russia is not a good trip for
someone in a wheelchair, but we thought we should find out from those who
have been there.

DFM, you made me glad I'm not traveling there alone (you seem to have some
bad experiences) but with a tour company I have traveled with many times and
depend on to handle all the nasty little things you mention.

Jan, thanks for your very specific information on St. Petersburg, since that
was the place my daughter particularly wanted to see (she had a Russian
history and literature major). You've helped us by pointing out how little
she would get to see or do.

So I guess I'll be making the trip myself and, as I mentioned, I'll come
with a consolation prize for Claudia that will knock her socks off.

Felice