Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
Sep 26th 2004 | 10:06 am
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> Bjorn Olsson wrote:
>
> > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
[snip]
> applicants have *no* prior customer service experience of any kind. The
> company did not want any potential employees that had been tainted by the
> experience of having provided Soviet - style "customer service" in previous
> jobs...
I was under the impression that we were talking about Russia, not the
Soviet Union. Personally, I have never visited the SU, but I have
spent a total of about 6 months in Russia, and my firm impression is
that Russians are no less friendly than the average nationality.
Bjorn
> Bjorn Olsson wrote:
>
> > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
[snip]
> applicants have *no* prior customer service experience of any kind. The
> company did not want any potential employees that had been tainted by the
> experience of having provided Soviet - style "customer service" in previous
> jobs...
I was under the impression that we were talking about Russia, not the
Soviet Union. Personally, I have never visited the SU, but I have
spent a total of about 6 months in Russia, and my firm impression is
that Russians are no less friendly than the average nationality.
Bjorn
Sep 26th 2004 | 10:14 am
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
[email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > money),
> > > >
> > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > >
> > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > one nights accomodation.
> >
> > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > example of this?
>
> When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
> > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > days,
> > > >
> > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > >
> > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> >
> > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
>
> Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
You were misadviced.
> > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > requirement.
> >
> > Are you sure?
>
> I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
rather.
> > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > a country like Russia.
> > >
> > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > >
> > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > >
> > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> >
> > How narrow-minded.
>
> It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> from western countries?
It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
in which you happened to be born.
> When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> you use the correct insult.
>
> > > > > Been there recently?
> > > >
> > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > time, hopefully.
> > >
> > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> >
> > Did they check yours?
>
> Somehow they did not.
See?
> They were always checking someone else's when I
> walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
>
> > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > >
> > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > moment.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > >
> > > They most certainly are.
> >
> > I doubt it.
>
> It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
It's all in your mind.
> And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
>
> > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > >
> > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > in London or Berlin.
> > >
> > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> >
> > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > Berlin?
>
> *sigh*
>
> The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> me much more.
I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
shared by other posters.
> > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > other places.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > >
> > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > you could ask for.
> > >
> > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> >
> > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
>
> I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
smiles equalled non-friendliness.
Bjorn
> [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > money),
> > > >
> > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > >
> > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > one nights accomodation.
> >
> > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > example of this?
>
> When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
> > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > days,
> > > >
> > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > >
> > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> >
> > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
>
> Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
You were misadviced.
> > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > requirement.
> >
> > Are you sure?
>
> I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
rather.
> > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > a country like Russia.
> > >
> > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > >
> > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > >
> > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> >
> > How narrow-minded.
>
> It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> from western countries?
It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
in which you happened to be born.
> When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> you use the correct insult.
>
> > > > > Been there recently?
> > > >
> > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > time, hopefully.
> > >
> > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> >
> > Did they check yours?
>
> Somehow they did not.
See?
> They were always checking someone else's when I
> walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
>
> > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > >
> > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > moment.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > >
> > > They most certainly are.
> >
> > I doubt it.
>
> It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
It's all in your mind.
> And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
>
> > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > >
> > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > in London or Berlin.
> > >
> > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> >
> > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > Berlin?
>
> *sigh*
>
> The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> me much more.
I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
shared by other posters.
> > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > other places.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > >
> > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > you could ask for.
> > >
> > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> >
> > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
>
> I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
smiles equalled non-friendliness.
Bjorn
Sep 26th 2004 | 10:13 pm
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
[email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
> Please don't kill each other
Grrrr!
Bjorn
> Please don't kill each other
Grrrr!
Bjorn
Sep 28th 2004 | 10:00 pm
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > > money),
> > > > >
> > > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > > >
> > > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > > one nights accomodation.
> > >
> > > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > > example of this?
> >
> > When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
>
> That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
That is completely dependent on where you stay and can vary from $10
to $500+.
> > > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > > days,
> > > > >
> > > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > > >
> > > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> > >
> > > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
> >
> > Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
>
> You were misadviced.
From a Russian embassy. Should I have ignored that advice, and
listened to someone like you instead?
> > > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > > requirement.
> > >
> > > Are you sure?
> >
> > I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> > you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
>
> I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
> rather.
Given that this was about a place being 'tourist-friendly', I don't
believe your view is that of a tourist. You clearly have had a lot of
exposure to Russian ways.
> > > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > > a country like Russia.
> > > >
> > > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > > >
> > > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > > >
> > > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> > >
> > > How narrow-minded.
> >
> > It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> > from western countries?
>
> It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
> sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
> in which you happened to be born.
Fortunately I am not "marrow-minded". Neither am I narrow minded,
neither do I sheepishly stay within any cultural confines. One again,
you have assumed a lot of stuff about me, which I can assure you is
very wrong.
> > When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> > you use the correct insult.
> >
> > > > > > Been there recently?
> > > > >
> > > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > > time, hopefully.
> > > >
> > > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> > >
> > > Did they check yours?
> >
> > Somehow they did not.
>
> See?
Yes, I could see just fine. I could see that people were having their
papers checked just fine.
> > They were always checking someone else's when I
> > walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
> >
> > > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > > >
> > > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > > moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > > >
> > > > They most certainly are.
> > >
> > > I doubt it.
> >
> > It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
>
> It's all in your mind.
You really just don't get it, do you.
> > And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> > a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> > friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
> >
> > > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > > in London or Berlin.
> > > >
> > > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> > >
> > > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > > Berlin?
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> > me much more.
>
> I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
> shared by other posters.
Another thing I never said. You really are sensitive about this Moscow
thing, aren't you?
> > > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > > other places.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > > you could ask for.
> > > >
> > > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> > >
> > > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
> >
> > I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> > imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
>
> I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
> smiles equalled non-friendliness.
Yet another thing I never said. All I have been saying (and you keep
missing) is that Moscow is not tourist friendly. I did not say "All
Russians are unfriendly" or anything other rubbish that you have
alluded to, I just said that Moscow is not an easy or particularly
pleasant place to visit for all of the aformentioned reasons. As you
have visited there so many times, you clearly don't see it in a
tourist's eyes. Can you comprehend this?
---
DFM
> [email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > > money),
> > > > >
> > > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > > >
> > > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > > one nights accomodation.
> > >
> > > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > > example of this?
> >
> > When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
>
> That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
That is completely dependent on where you stay and can vary from $10
to $500+.
> > > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > > days,
> > > > >
> > > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > > >
> > > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> > >
> > > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
> >
> > Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
>
> You were misadviced.
From a Russian embassy. Should I have ignored that advice, and
listened to someone like you instead?
> > > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > > requirement.
> > >
> > > Are you sure?
> >
> > I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> > you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
>
> I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
> rather.
Given that this was about a place being 'tourist-friendly', I don't
believe your view is that of a tourist. You clearly have had a lot of
exposure to Russian ways.
> > > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > > a country like Russia.
> > > >
> > > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > > >
> > > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > > >
> > > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> > >
> > > How narrow-minded.
> >
> > It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> > from western countries?
>
> It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
> sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
> in which you happened to be born.
Fortunately I am not "marrow-minded". Neither am I narrow minded,
neither do I sheepishly stay within any cultural confines. One again,
you have assumed a lot of stuff about me, which I can assure you is
very wrong.
> > When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> > you use the correct insult.
> >
> > > > > > Been there recently?
> > > > >
> > > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > > time, hopefully.
> > > >
> > > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> > >
> > > Did they check yours?
> >
> > Somehow they did not.
>
> See?
Yes, I could see just fine. I could see that people were having their
papers checked just fine.
> > They were always checking someone else's when I
> > walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
> >
> > > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > > >
> > > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > > moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > > >
> > > > They most certainly are.
> > >
> > > I doubt it.
> >
> > It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
>
> It's all in your mind.
You really just don't get it, do you.
> > And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> > a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> > friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
> >
> > > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > > in London or Berlin.
> > > >
> > > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> > >
> > > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > > Berlin?
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> > me much more.
>
> I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
> shared by other posters.
Another thing I never said. You really are sensitive about this Moscow
thing, aren't you?
> > > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > > other places.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > > you could ask for.
> > > >
> > > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> > >
> > > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
> >
> > I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> > imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
>
> I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
> smiles equalled non-friendliness.
Yet another thing I never said. All I have been saying (and you keep
missing) is that Moscow is not tourist friendly. I did not say "All
Russians are unfriendly" or anything other rubbish that you have
alluded to, I just said that Moscow is not an easy or particularly
pleasant place to visit for all of the aformentioned reasons. As you
have visited there so many times, you clearly don't see it in a
tourist's eyes. Can you comprehend this?
---
DFM
Sep 29th 2004 | 5:51 am
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?
[email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > > > money),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > > > one nights accomodation.
> > > >
> > > > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > > > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > > > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > > > example of this?
> > >
> > > When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
> >
> > That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
>
> That is completely dependent on where you stay and can vary from $10
> to $500+.
So the "one night's accomodation" you had in mind was at a camping
site?
> > > > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > > > days,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> > > >
> > > > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
> > >
> > > Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
> >
> > You were misadviced.
>
> From a Russian embassy.
And?
> Should I have ignored that advice, and
> listened to someone like you instead?
Yes.
> > > > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > > > requirement.
> > > >
> > > > Are you sure?
> > >
> > > I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> > > you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
> >
> > I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
> > rather.
>
> Given that this was about a place being 'tourist-friendly', I don't
> believe your view is that of a tourist. You clearly have had a lot of
> exposure to Russian ways.
>
> > > > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > > > a country like Russia.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> > > >
> > > > How narrow-minded.
> > >
> > > It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> > > from western countries?
> >
> > It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
> > sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
> > in which you happened to be born.
>
> Fortunately I am not "marrow-minded". Neither am I narrow minded,
Thank you so much for helping out with the spelling.
> neither do I sheepishly stay within any cultural confines. One again,
> you have assumed a lot of stuff about me, which I can assure you is
> very wrong.
>
> > > When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> > > you use the correct insult.
> > >
> > > > > > > Been there recently?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > > > time, hopefully.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> > > >
> > > > Did they check yours?
> > >
> > > Somehow they did not.
> >
> > See?
>
> Yes, I could see just fine. I could see that people were having their
> papers checked just fine.
And your papers were not checked, apparently.
> > > They were always checking someone else's when I
> > > walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
> > >
> > > > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > > > moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > > > >
> > > > > They most certainly are.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt it.
> > >
> > > It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
> >
> > It's all in your mind.
>
> You really just don't get it, do you.
No, I don't get what you mean by an "intimidating atmosphere".
> > > And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> > > a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> > > friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > > > in London or Berlin.
> > > > >
> > > > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> > > >
> > > > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > > > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > > > Berlin?
> > >
> > > *sigh*
> > >
> > > The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> > > me much more.
> >
> > I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
> > shared by other posters.
>
> Another thing I never said.
It seems like a reasonable inference from what you said.
> You really are sensitive about this Moscow
> thing, aren't you?
Well, I do beleive it gets a lot more criticism than it deserves.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > > > other places.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > > > you could ask for.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> > > >
> > > > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
> > >
> > > I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> > > imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
> >
> > I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
> > smiles equalled non-friendliness.
>
> Yet another thing I never said.
Really? In connection with complaints about unfriendliness you asked
rhetorically "Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?".
You now claim that the absence of a smile does *not* signify
unfriendliness? In that case, I'd ask you to please make up your mind.
> All I have been saying (and you keep
> missing) is that Moscow is not tourist friendly. I did not say "All
> Russians are unfriendly"
I did not say you did. You're imagining all sorts of things.
> or anything other rubbish that you have
> alluded to, I just said that Moscow is not an easy or particularly
> pleasant place to visit for all of the aformentioned reasons. As you
> have visited there so many times, you clearly don't see it in a
> tourist's eyes. Can you comprehend this?
Of course. I am simply evaluating the reasons you have stated for
Moscow not being tourist-friendly, and found that I disagree (to
varying degrees) with most of those reasons. I don't have to be a
tourist myself to do that.
Bjorn
> [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (Deep Frayed Morgues) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > > > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
> > > > > > > money),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
> > > > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
> > > > > > necessarily charge for the service.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
> > > > > one nights accomodation.
> > > >
> > > > Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
> > > > have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
> > > > they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
> > > > example of this?
> > >
> > > When did I say they would charge up to $100? I didn't did I.
> >
> > That's the "region of one night's accomodation".
>
> That is completely dependent on where you stay and can vary from $10
> to $500+.
So the "one night's accomodation" you had in mind was at a camping
site?
> > > > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
> > > > > > > days,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
> > > > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?
> > > >
> > > > No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.
> > >
> > > Perhaps it works in practice, but I was advised differently.
> >
> > You were misadviced.
>
> From a Russian embassy.
And?
> Should I have ignored that advice, and
> listened to someone like you instead?
Yes.
> > > > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn't bother.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
> > > > > requirement.
> > > >
> > > > Are you sure?
> > >
> > > I am sure that when going to a country like Russia for the first time,
> > > you are wise to do whatever you are advised to do.
> >
> > I am not going there for the first time. Something like the 14th,
> > rather.
>
> Given that this was about a place being 'tourist-friendly', I don't
> believe your view is that of a tourist. You clearly have had a lot of
> exposure to Russian ways.
>
> > > > > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
> > > > > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
> > > > > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
> > > > > a country like Russia.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Also making sure
> > > > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
> > > > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
> > > > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
> > > > > western, this is the point of view I am taking.
> > > >
> > > > How narrow-minded.
> > >
> > > It's narrow minded to acknowledge that almost all posters here are
> > > from western countries?
> >
> > It's marrow-minded not to try to broaden you view of the world but to
> > sheepishly stay within the confines arbitrarily defined by the culture
> > in which you happened to be born.
>
> Fortunately I am not "marrow-minded". Neither am I narrow minded,
Thank you so much for helping out with the spelling.
> neither do I sheepishly stay within any cultural confines. One again,
> you have assumed a lot of stuff about me, which I can assure you is
> very wrong.
>
> > > When you try to insult someone, it helps if
> > > you use the correct insult.
> > >
> > > > > > > Been there recently?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
> > > > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
> > > > > > time, hopefully.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
> > > > > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
> > > >
> > > > Did they check yours?
> > >
> > > Somehow they did not.
> >
> > See?
>
> Yes, I could see just fine. I could see that people were having their
> papers checked just fine.
And your papers were not checked, apparently.
> > > They were always checking someone else's when I
> > > walked in. I was 'moved along' a couple of times though.
> > >
> > > > > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
> > > > > > > moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
> > > > >
> > > > > They most certainly are.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt it.
> > >
> > > It's pretty hard not to notice the intimidating atmosphere of Moscow.
> >
> > It's all in your mind.
>
> You really just don't get it, do you.
No, I don't get what you mean by an "intimidating atmosphere".
> > > And please note that as you go to Moscow so regularly, possibly it is
> > > a very different place to that experienced by a tourist. Having
> > > friends in a country like Russia would make it a whole lot easier.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
> > > > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
> > > > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
> > > > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
> > > > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
> > > > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
> > > > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
> > > > > > in London or Berlin.
> > > > >
> > > > > This comparison is flawed, and silly.
> > > >
> > > > Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
> > > > it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
> > > > Berlin?
> > >
> > > *sigh*
> > >
> > > The site of ELDERLY (do I have to repeat this?) people begging bothers
> > > me much more.
> >
> > I doubt that your indifference to suffering youngsters is universally
> > shared by other posters.
>
> Another thing I never said.
It seems like a reasonable inference from what you said.
> You really are sensitive about this Moscow
> thing, aren't you?
Well, I do beleive it gets a lot more criticism than it deserves.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, it
> > > > > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
> > > > > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
> > > > > > > > other places.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
> > > > > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
> > > > > > you could ask for.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
> > > >
> > > > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.
> > >
> > > I did not say that (along with all the other stuff you seem to have
> > > imagined I said). YOU were the one who used the word 'fake'.
> >
> > I did, and then you acknowledged that you thought the absence of such
> > smiles equalled non-friendliness.
>
> Yet another thing I never said.
Really? In connection with complaints about unfriendliness you asked
rhetorically "Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?".
You now claim that the absence of a smile does *not* signify
unfriendliness? In that case, I'd ask you to please make up your mind.
> All I have been saying (and you keep
> missing) is that Moscow is not tourist friendly. I did not say "All
> Russians are unfriendly"
I did not say you did. You're imagining all sorts of things.
> or anything other rubbish that you have
> alluded to, I just said that Moscow is not an easy or particularly
> pleasant place to visit for all of the aformentioned reasons. As you
> have visited there so many times, you clearly don't see it in a
> tourist's eyes. Can you comprehend this?
Of course. I am simply evaluating the reasons you have stated for
Moscow not being tourist-friendly, and found that I disagree (to
varying degrees) with most of those reasons. I don't have to be a
tourist myself to do that.
Bjorn
Oct 19th 2004 | 10:36 pm
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Russians to Antalya (was: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?)
bogus address schrieb:
>
> >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
> >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
> >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
> >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
> >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
> >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
> > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
> > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
> > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
> > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
> > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
> > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
> > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
>
> I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
> except in Trabzon (where, along with the Mkhedruli, it was aimed at the
> cross-border small traders and prostitutes from the Caucasus) and saw
> none this time in Urfa or Diyarbakir. So my question was more specific:
> why Russians in Antalya, rather than why Russians in Turkey?
>
> The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
> that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
> southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
> it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
> from Cyprus.
Antalya is the biggest resort in Turkey. Lots of tourist flights from
Germany.
Regards, ULF
>
> >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
> >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
> >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
> >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
> >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
> >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
> > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
> > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
> > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
> > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
> > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
> > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
> > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
>
> I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
> except in Trabzon (where, along with the Mkhedruli, it was aimed at the
> cross-border small traders and prostitutes from the Caucasus) and saw
> none this time in Urfa or Diyarbakir. So my question was more specific:
> why Russians in Antalya, rather than why Russians in Turkey?
>
> The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
> that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
> southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
> it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
> from Cyprus.
Antalya is the biggest resort in Turkey. Lots of tourist flights from
Germany.
Regards, ULF
Oct 19th 2004 | 10:42 pm
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Russian travelers (was: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?)
bogus address schrieb:
>
> > Look, I've been to Turkey. Some beach resorts are absolutely swarming
> > with Russians who come there for exactly the same reasons as other
> > vacationers: to swim, sunbathe, eat, drink, dance, and generally enjoy
> > themselves, whilst spending a good deal of money.
>
> I've never been to a Turkish beach resort popular with foreigners so
> that didn't occur to me. I've never yet met a Russian doing independent
> travel (and on this last trip I didn't meet any Americans, Canadians or
> Germans either, which is perhaps a bit more surprising). Maybe the
> Soviet-era cultural legacy of mass holidays for the proletariat lives
> on to some extent?
Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
be
- visa problems
- language problems
outside CIS.
Antalya might be an exception but in most cases, it is more expensive to
book a hotel separately.
Most independent travelers from Russia to Western Europe are on business
or come to see friends & family.
Regards, ULF
>
> > Look, I've been to Turkey. Some beach resorts are absolutely swarming
> > with Russians who come there for exactly the same reasons as other
> > vacationers: to swim, sunbathe, eat, drink, dance, and generally enjoy
> > themselves, whilst spending a good deal of money.
>
> I've never been to a Turkish beach resort popular with foreigners so
> that didn't occur to me. I've never yet met a Russian doing independent
> travel (and on this last trip I didn't meet any Americans, Canadians or
> Germans either, which is perhaps a bit more surprising). Maybe the
> Soviet-era cultural legacy of mass holidays for the proletariat lives
> on to some extent?
Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
be
- visa problems
- language problems
outside CIS.
Antalya might be an exception but in most cases, it is more expensive to
book a hotel separately.
Most independent travelers from Russia to Western Europe are on business
or come to see friends & family.
Regards, ULF
Oct 19th 2004 | 10:50 pm
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Russian airlines (was: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?)
Gregory Morrow schrieb:
> I mean what's the big deal? It's an AIRLINE OFFICE after all - why can't
> they just put out timetables, etc. in a rack so people can get one? Why be
> so bloody rude to a potential customer or indeed anyone for that matter - am
> I as a customer on trial or something? In most any other culture (or at
> least airline ticket office) it'd be not even worth mentioning, but this
> seems to be the norm for the Russian customer "service" encounter...
>
> Interesting, but I've had pretty much the same exact experiences in the past
> 20 - odd years at Aeroflot and Transaero offices in Prague, London, New
> York, San Francisco, East and West Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt,
I found Aeroflot Frankfurt okay. Hard to get information from Transaero
Frankfurt.
> Montreal...and
> also at Russian shops, restaurants, etc. here in Chicago and LA (both have a
> large Russian population). Never one instance of politeness, let alone
> simple civility. And this goes for the Russians I've worked with and had as
> neighbors, too. Who needs it?
Hmm,.
Regards, ULF
> I mean what's the big deal? It's an AIRLINE OFFICE after all - why can't
> they just put out timetables, etc. in a rack so people can get one? Why be
> so bloody rude to a potential customer or indeed anyone for that matter - am
> I as a customer on trial or something? In most any other culture (or at
> least airline ticket office) it'd be not even worth mentioning, but this
> seems to be the norm for the Russian customer "service" encounter...
>
> Interesting, but I've had pretty much the same exact experiences in the past
> 20 - odd years at Aeroflot and Transaero offices in Prague, London, New
> York, San Francisco, East and West Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt,
I found Aeroflot Frankfurt okay. Hard to get information from Transaero
Frankfurt.
> Montreal...and
> also at Russian shops, restaurants, etc. here in Chicago and LA (both have a
> large Russian population). Never one instance of politeness, let alone
> simple civility. And this goes for the Russians I've worked with and had as
> neighbors, too. Who needs it?
Hmm,.
Regards, ULF
Oct 20th 2004 | 1:35 am
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russian airlines (was: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?)
Ulf Kutzner wrote:
> Gregory Morrow schrieb:
> > I mean what's the big deal? It's an AIRLINE OFFICE after all - why
can't
> > they just put out timetables, etc. in a rack so people can get one? Why
be
> > so bloody rude to a potential customer or indeed anyone for that
matter - am
> > I as a customer on trial or something? In most any other culture (or at
> > least airline ticket office) it'd be not even worth mentioning, but this
> > seems to be the norm for the Russian customer "service" encounter...
> >
> > Interesting, but I've had pretty much the same exact experiences in the
past
> > 20 - odd years at Aeroflot and Transaero offices in Prague, London, New
> > York, San Francisco, East and West Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt,
> I found Aeroflot Frankfurt okay. Hard to get information from Transaero
> Frankfurt.
Ten or so years ago Transaero had a big fancy ground floor office here
downtown in Chicago's Loop - despite the fact they never flew here and AFAIK
never intended to...rather "odd"...especially considering the fact that the
office was usually always closed. It closed after the '98 Russian financial
panic.
> > Montreal...and
> > also at Russian shops, restaurants, etc. here in Chicago and LA (both
have a
> > large Russian population). Never one instance of politeness, let alone
> > simple civility. And this goes for the Russians I've worked with and
had as
> > neighbors, too. Who needs it?
> Hmm,.
Indeed :-\
--
Best
Greg
> Gregory Morrow schrieb:
> > I mean what's the big deal? It's an AIRLINE OFFICE after all - why
can't
> > they just put out timetables, etc. in a rack so people can get one? Why
be
> > so bloody rude to a potential customer or indeed anyone for that
matter - am
> > I as a customer on trial or something? In most any other culture (or at
> > least airline ticket office) it'd be not even worth mentioning, but this
> > seems to be the norm for the Russian customer "service" encounter...
> >
> > Interesting, but I've had pretty much the same exact experiences in the
past
> > 20 - odd years at Aeroflot and Transaero offices in Prague, London, New
> > York, San Francisco, East and West Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt,
> I found Aeroflot Frankfurt okay. Hard to get information from Transaero
> Frankfurt.
Ten or so years ago Transaero had a big fancy ground floor office here
downtown in Chicago's Loop - despite the fact they never flew here and AFAIK
never intended to...rather "odd"...especially considering the fact that the
office was usually always closed. It closed after the '98 Russian financial
panic.
> > Montreal...and
> > also at Russian shops, restaurants, etc. here in Chicago and LA (both
have a
> > large Russian population). Never one instance of politeness, let alone
> > simple civility. And this goes for the Russians I've worked with and
had as
> > neighbors, too. Who needs it?
> Hmm,.
Indeed :-\
--
Best
Greg
Oct 20th 2004 | 2:35 am
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russians to Antalya
Am Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:36:34 +0200 schrieb Ulf Kutzner:
> bogus address schrieb:
>> The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
>> that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
>> southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
>> it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
>> from Cyprus.
>
> Antalya is the biggest resort in Turkey. Lots of tourist flights from
> Germany.
Yep. Reminds me of a fellow University student of mine, who was Russian (he
studied in Germany) and one day (few years ago) booked a very cheap one
week holiday in Malta (something like 199 EUR for one week) at a German
tour agent.
After he came back he told me that the Hotel he booked was full of other
Russians ;-)
And that wasn't a Russian tour agent or something...
Regards,
Frank
> bogus address schrieb:
>> The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
>> that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
>> southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
>> it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
>> from Cyprus.
>
> Antalya is the biggest resort in Turkey. Lots of tourist flights from
> Germany.
Yep. Reminds me of a fellow University student of mine, who was Russian (he
studied in Germany) and one day (few years ago) booked a very cheap one
week holiday in Malta (something like 199 EUR for one week) at a German
tour agent.
After he came back he told me that the Hotel he booked was full of other
Russians ;-)
And that wasn't a Russian tour agent or something...
Regards,
Frank
Oct 20th 2004 | 8:50 am
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russian travelers (was: Crutches/wheelchair in Russia?)
Ulf Kutzner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> bogus address schrieb:
> >
> > > Look, I've been to Turkey. Some beach resorts are absolutely swarming
> > > with Russians who come there for exactly the same reasons as other
> > > vacationers: to swim, sunbathe, eat, drink, dance, and generally enjoy
> > > themselves, whilst spending a good deal of money.
> >
> > I've never been to a Turkish beach resort popular with foreigners so
> > that didn't occur to me. I've never yet met a Russian doing independent
> > travel (and on this last trip I didn't meet any Americans, Canadians or
> > Germans either, which is perhaps a bit more surprising). Maybe the
> > Soviet-era cultural legacy of mass holidays for the proletariat lives
> > on to some extent?
>
> Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
> be
> - visa problems
> - language problems
There is no language problem in major russian resorts in Turkey, for
instance, since the local turkish entrepeneurs in the tourist industry
all speak russian.
> outside CIS.
>
> Antalya might be an exception
There are many "exceptions" in that case. There is a very obvious
Russian tourist presence in several places I've spent holidays in, in
Turkey, Greece and Tunisia. Also Cyprus and Spain are big russian
holiday destinations.
Bjorn
> bogus address schrieb:
> >
> > > Look, I've been to Turkey. Some beach resorts are absolutely swarming
> > > with Russians who come there for exactly the same reasons as other
> > > vacationers: to swim, sunbathe, eat, drink, dance, and generally enjoy
> > > themselves, whilst spending a good deal of money.
> >
> > I've never been to a Turkish beach resort popular with foreigners so
> > that didn't occur to me. I've never yet met a Russian doing independent
> > travel (and on this last trip I didn't meet any Americans, Canadians or
> > Germans either, which is perhaps a bit more surprising). Maybe the
> > Soviet-era cultural legacy of mass holidays for the proletariat lives
> > on to some extent?
>
> Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
> be
> - visa problems
> - language problems
There is no language problem in major russian resorts in Turkey, for
instance, since the local turkish entrepeneurs in the tourist industry
all speak russian.
> outside CIS.
>
> Antalya might be an exception
There are many "exceptions" in that case. There is a very obvious
Russian tourist presence in several places I've spent holidays in, in
Turkey, Greece and Tunisia. Also Cyprus and Spain are big russian
holiday destinations.
Bjorn
Oct 26th 2004 | 9:58 pm
#102
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russian travelers
Bjorn Olsson schrieb:
>
> Ulf Kutzner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
> > be
> > - visa problems
> > - language problems
>
> There is no language problem in major russian resorts in Turkey, for
> instance, since the local turkish entrepeneurs in the tourist industry
> all speak russian.
>
> > outside CIS.
> >
> > Antalya might be an exception
>
> There are many "exceptions" in that case. There is a very obvious
> Russian tourist presence in several places I've spent holidays in, in
> Turkey, Greece and Tunisia. Also Cyprus and Spain are big russian
> holiday destinations.
Get Schengen visas for Greece and Spain. Get visas for Cyprus. In
advance (should be true also for Cyprus now). And as we are discussing
individual, not group, travel, every traveler has to contact the
relevant consular department of the embassy.
Regards, ULF
>
> Ulf Kutzner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Independant travel is poupular in Russia but not abroad as there might
> > be
> > - visa problems
> > - language problems
>
> There is no language problem in major russian resorts in Turkey, for
> instance, since the local turkish entrepeneurs in the tourist industry
> all speak russian.
>
> > outside CIS.
> >
> > Antalya might be an exception
>
> There are many "exceptions" in that case. There is a very obvious
> Russian tourist presence in several places I've spent holidays in, in
> Turkey, Greece and Tunisia. Also Cyprus and Spain are big russian
> holiday destinations.
Get Schengen visas for Greece and Spain. Get visas for Cyprus. In
advance (should be true also for Cyprus now). And as we are discussing
individual, not group, travel, every traveler has to contact the
relevant consular department of the embassy.
Regards, ULF
