"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] ink.net>...
    > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >
    > > Methinks you excaggerate somewhat. If Soviet society had "no room for
    > > such folks", why does each and every old Soviet bus I ride have a
    > > clearly marked "mesta delya invalidov" (seating for the handicapped)?
    > >
    >
    > They are for those old maimed Soviet citizen survivors of "The Great
    > Patriotic War"

No, they are for any handicapped person. The full text is actually
"Mesta delya invalidov and passashiri s detmi", i.e. "seating for
handicapped persons and passengers traveling with children".

Bjorn

Felice Friese wrote:

    > Thank you all so much for your honest and helpful comments. My daughter and
    > I were not surprised that most of you think Russia is not a good trip for
    > someone in a wheelchair, but we thought we should find out from those who
    > have been there.
    >
    > DFM, you made me glad I'm not traveling there alone (you seem to have some
    > bad experiences) but with a tour company I have traveled with many times and
    > depend on to handle all the nasty little things you mention.
    >
    > Jan, thanks for your very specific information on St. Petersburg, since that
    > was the place my daughter particularly wanted to see (she had a Russian
    > history and literature major). You've helped us by pointing out how little
    > she would get to see or do.
    >
    > So I guess I'll be making the trip myself and, as I mentioned, I'll come
    > with a consolation prize for Claudia that will knock her socks off.
    >
    > Felice
    >
    >

Felice

while I would agree with most of what has been written (yes, I have
been to Moscow several times), I thought I might mention that my father
at the age of 92 just visited Moscow and St Pete and thought it was great.
So, if a 92-year old can do it....

T.

T.

"Felice Friese" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<lP12d.197144$mD.172732@attbi_s02>...
    > Thank you all so much for your honest and helpful comments. My daughter and
    > I were not surprised that most of you think Russia is not a good trip for
    > someone in a wheelchair, but we thought we should find out from those who
    > have been there.
    >
    > DFM, you made me glad I'm not traveling there alone (you seem to have some
    > bad experiences) but with a tour company I have traveled with many times and
    > depend on to handle all the nasty little things you mention.
    >
    > Jan, thanks for your very specific information on St. Petersburg, since that
    > was the place my daughter particularly wanted to see (she had a Russian
    > history and literature major). You've helped us by pointing out how little
    > she would get to see or do.
    >
    > So I guess I'll be making the trip myself and, as I mentioned, I'll come
    > with a consolation prize for Claudia that will knock her socks off.

In addition, she can make a virtual tour of St Petersburg by using the
amazing collection of digital photos from almost every part of the
city at this incredible sight:

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/index_e.htm

Bjorn

"Tom Peel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Felice Friese wrote:
    > > Thank you all so much for your honest and helpful comments. My daughter
and
    > > I were not surprised that most of you think Russia is not a good trip
for
    > > someone in a wheelchair, but we thought we should find out from those
who
    > > have been there.

    > while I would agree with most of what has been written (yes, I have
    > been to Moscow several times), I thought I might mention that my father
    > at the age of 92 just visited Moscow and St Pete and thought it was great.
    > So, if a 92-year old can do it....
    > T.

More power to your father, Tom! How wonderful that he still has his health
and his interest in traveling.

Felice

"Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
    > "Felice Friese" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<lP12d.197144$mD.172732@attbi_s02>...
    > > Thank you all so much for your honest and helpful comments. My daughter
and
    > > I were not surprised that most of you think Russia is not a good trip
for
    > > someone in a wheelchair, but we thought we should find out from those
who
    > > have been there.
---
    > > So I guess I'll be making the trip myself and, as I mentioned, I'll come
    > > with a consolation prize for Claudia that will knock her socks off.

    > In addition, she can make a virtual tour of St Petersburg by using the
    > amazing collection of digital photos from almost every part of the
    > city at this incredible sight:
    > http://www.enlight.ru/camera/index_e.htm
    > Bjorn

Thank you for that link, Bjorn. I was particularly excited to see the White
Nights photos since I'll be there at that time in 2005. I'll make sure my
daughter checks it out on the days I'm there!

Felice

[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    >
    > > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > > >
    > > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > > >
    > > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    > >
    > > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
    > > place,
    >
    > You are excaggerating.

Pigs arse I am. I have been to almost every country in Europe now, and
Russia trumps when it comes to making you feel unwelcome. All of the
former soviet states, and even Albania are far more welcoming than
Russia.

    > > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.
    >
    > Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply for
    > a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?

Huh???

First book AND pay for a hotel, including paying for the invitation,
then send it to the embassy (with money), then wait, then check the
visa with a fine tooth comb for mistakes (like they made on my last
one), then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
money), oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
days, plus re-registering it in each city you go to. Also making sure
you don't lose any of the supporting documents.

Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?

    > > Once you get
    > > there, you have to endure customs,
    >
    > I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.
    >
    > > and try to get to your destination
    > > without being ripped off too much.
    >
    > I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.
    >
    > > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
    > > someone to rip off.
    >
    > That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.
    >
    > > And that's just the start.
    > >
    > > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
    >
    > Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia even
    > once.

Been there recently? Vigilance is going through the roof at the
moment.

    >
    > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    >
    > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.

I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
are in abundance in Moscow.

    > > This is
    > > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.
    > >
    > > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
    > > prices if you don't speak the language.
    >
    > Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are reasonable
    > anyway.

And shops, restaurants, and any markets around the place...

    > > And of course not many folk do
    > > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you from
    > > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.
    >
    > It varies. As everywhere else.

I disagree. Moscow has very consistent surly customer service.

    > > In fact, it
    > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
    >
    > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
    > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
    > other places.

Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?

    > > You
    > > definitely get the bare minimum you pay for when it comes to food.
    > >
    > > OK, I could go on, but I think you get the idea of what I am saying.
    >
    > I get the idea, but I completely disagree. Your descriptions do not
    > fit my experiences.

May I ask what you idea is of a 'difficult country' perhaps?
---
DFM

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:41:58 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Tom Peel
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
...
... while I would agree with most of what has been written (yes, I have
... been to Moscow several times), I thought I might mention that my father
... at the age of 92 just visited Moscow and St Pete and thought it was great.
... So, if a 92-year old can do it....

I'll have what he is having. ;-)

[email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    >
    > > > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of various
    > > > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy for
    > > > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow, which
    > > > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > > > >
    > > > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    > > >
    > > > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
    > > > place,
    > >
    > > You are excaggerating.
    >
    > Pigs arse I am. I have been to almost every country in Europe now, and
    > Russia trumps when it comes to making you feel unwelcome. All of the
    > former soviet states, and even Albania are far more welcoming than
    > Russia.

I disagree.

    > > > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > > > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.
    > >
    > > Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply for
    > > a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?
    >
    > Huh???
    >
    > First book AND pay for a hotel,

You'd usually do that anyway.

    > including paying for the invitation,

Not necessarily:

http://www.tourintel.ru/visa.html

    > then send it to the embassy (with money), then wait,

That's a usual visa application procedure, as for any country
requiring a visa.

    > then check the
    > visa with a fine tooth comb for mistakes (like they made on my last
    > one),

The 12 or 13 visas I've been issued have all been free of mistakes.

    > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > money),

They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
necessarily charge for the service.

    > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > days,

No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.

    > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.

I wouldn't bother.

    > Also making sure
    > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    >
    > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
    > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?

Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
Russians to visit the EU, for example.

    > > > Once you get
    > > > there, you have to endure customs,
    > >
    > > I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.
    > >
    > > > and try to get to your destination
    > > > without being ripped off too much.
    > >
    > > I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.
    > >
    > > > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > > > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
    > > > someone to rip off.
    > >
    > > That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.
    > >
    > > > And that's just the start.
    > > >
    > > > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
    > >
    > > Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia even
    > > once.
    >
    > Been there recently?

Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
time, hopefully.

    > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > moment.

I doubt that western visitors are affected.

    > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > >
    > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    >
    > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
    > are in abundance in Moscow.

I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
in London or Berlin.

    > > > This is
    > > > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.
    > > >
    > > > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
    > > > prices if you don't speak the language.
    > >
    > > Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are reasonable
    > > anyway.
    >
    > And shops,

Huh?

    > restaurants,

Huh?

    > and any markets around the place...

Huh?

    > > > And of course not many folk do
    > > > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you from
    > > > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.
    > >
    > > It varies. As everywhere else.
    >
    > I disagree. Moscow has very consistent surly customer service.

I disagree. There is simply a cultural difference when it comes to the
usage of smiles and certain empty phrases, which are overused in
certain other places. The service itself is about the same as anywhere
else. (Perhaps I should add that I don't consider a foolish smile and
a phrase like "How are you today?" to be part of service).

    > > > In fact, it
    > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
    > >
    > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
    > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
    > > other places.
    >
    > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?

It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
you could ask for.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > >
    > > > > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of
various
    > > > > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy
for
    > > > > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow,
which
    > > > > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    > > > >
    > > > > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
    > > > > place,
    > > >
    > > > You are excaggerating.
    > >
    > > Pigs arse I am. I have been to almost every country in Europe now, and
    > > Russia trumps when it comes to making you feel unwelcome. All of the
    > > former soviet states, and even Albania are far more welcoming than
    > > Russia.
    > I disagree.
    > > > > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > > > > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.
    > > >
    > > > Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply for
    > > > a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?
    > >
    > > Huh???
    > >
    > > First book AND pay for a hotel,
    > You'd usually do that anyway.
    > > including paying for the invitation,
    > Not necessarily:
    > http://www.tourintel.ru/visa.html
    > > then send it to the embassy (with money), then wait,
    > That's a usual visa application procedure, as for any country
    > requiring a visa.
    > > then check the
    > > visa with a fine tooth comb for mistakes (like they made on my last
    > > one),
    > The 12 or 13 visas I've been issued have all been free of mistakes.
    > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > > money),
    > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
    > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
    > necessarily charge for the service.


The procedures for visiting Russian have remained relatively unchanged since
the bad old Soviet days...that's why so few people visit the place. Who
needs all that stupid red tape?


    > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > > days,
    > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
    > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    > I wouldn't bother.
    > > Also making sure
    > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    > >
    > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
    > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
    > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
    > Russians to visit the EU, for example.


But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal class".
Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries, using
the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs, prostitution,
goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...

And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to mention
cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not to
spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
desirable tourist demographic.



    > > > > Once you get
    > > > > there, you have to endure customs,
    > > >
    > > > I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.
    > > >
    > > > > and try to get to your destination
    > > > > without being ripped off too much.
    > > >
    > > > I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.
    > > >
    > > > > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > > > > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
    > > > > someone to rip off.
    > > >
    > > > That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.
    > > >
    > > > > And that's just the start.
    > > > >
    > > > > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
    > > >
    > > > Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia even
    > > > once.
    > >
    > > Been there recently?
    > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
    > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
    > time, hopefully.
    > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > > moment.
    > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
    > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > > >
    > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    > >
    > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
    > > are in abundance in Moscow.
    > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
    > in London or Berlin.


DFM's point is that the UK and Germany have a fairly sufficient social
safety net for their senior citizens. Russia does not, hence the number of
elderly pensioners begging and selling things on the street. Did you every
hear about the dire ruble devaluations that wiped out the life savings of
many Russian pensioners?


    > > > > This is
    > > > > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.
    > > > >
    > > > > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
    > > > > prices if you don't speak the language.
    > > >
    > > > Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are reasonable
    > > > anyway.
    > >
    > > And shops,
    > Huh?
    > > restaurants,
    > Huh?
    > > and any markets around the place...
    > Huh?
    > > > > And of course not many folk do
    > > > > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you
from
    > > > > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.
    > > >
    > > > It varies. As everywhere else.
    > >
    > > I disagree. Moscow has very consistent surly customer service.
    > I disagree. There is simply a cultural difference when it comes to the
    > usage of smiles and certain empty phrases, which are overused in
    > certain other places. The service itself is about the same as anywhere
    > else. (Perhaps I should add that I don't consider a foolish smile and
    > a phrase like "How are you today?" to be part of service).


Rudeness is a characteristic of *all* Russians wherever they may be.
Japanese frex are not especially "friendly" and they are not overly warm to
strangers, but they have excellent manners and treat total strangers in a
generally civil manner. Russians are opposite - they are abrupt, rude, and
have the manners of pigs, even to those they are acquainted with.

Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when they are
falling - down drunk.


    > > > > In fact, it
    > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
    > > >
    > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
    > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
    > > > other places.
    > >
    > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
    > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
    > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
    > you could ask for.


Say want you want but Russia is still a generally hostile place for foreign
travellers.

--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >
    > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    >
    > > > > > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy of
    > various
    > > > > > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life easy
    > for
    > > > > > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially Moscow,
    > which
    > > > > > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very tourist-unfriendly
    > > > > > place,
    > > > >
    > > > > You are excaggerating.
    > > >
    > > > Pigs arse I am. I have been to almost every country in Europe now, and
    > > > Russia trumps when it comes to making you feel unwelcome. All of the
    > > > former soviet states, and even Albania are far more welcoming than
    > > > Russia.
    > >
    > > I disagree.
    > >
    > > > > > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > > > > > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.
    > > > >
    > > > > Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply for
    > > > > a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?
    > > >
    > > > Huh???
    > > >
    > > > First book AND pay for a hotel,
    > >
    > > You'd usually do that anyway.
    > >
    > > > including paying for the invitation,
    > >
    > > Not necessarily:
    > >
    > > http://www.tourintel.ru/visa.html
    > >
    > > > then send it to the embassy (with money), then wait,
    > >
    > > That's a usual visa application procedure, as for any country
    > > requiring a visa.
    > >
    > > > then check the
    > > > visa with a fine tooth comb for mistakes (like they made on my last
    > > > one),
    > >
    > > The 12 or 13 visas I've been issued have all been free of mistakes.
    > >
    > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > > > money),
    > >
    > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
    > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
    > > necessarily charge for the service.
    >
    >
    > The procedures for visiting Russian have remained relatively unchanged since
    > the bad old Soviet days...that's why so few people visit the place. Who
    > needs all that stupid red tape?

You are excaggerating. It is relatively simple to get a visa and plan
a visit. Hotels can be booked an paid for through the Internet, for
example (which is a big change since SU days).

    > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > > > days,
    > >
    > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
    > >
    > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    > >
    > > I wouldn't bother.
    > >
    > > > Also making sure
    > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    > > >
    > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
    > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
    > >
    > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
    > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
    >
    >
    > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal class".
    > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries, using
    > the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs, prostitution,
    > goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    >
    > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to mention
    > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not to
    > spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > desirable tourist demographic.

The Cypriots seem to disagree, judging from their worries about having
to introduce visas for russians if joining the EU.

    > > > > > Once you get
    > > > > > there, you have to endure customs,
    > > > >
    > > > > I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.
    > > > >
    > > > > > and try to get to your destination
    > > > > > without being ripped off too much.
    > > > >
    > > > > I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > > > > > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking for
    > > > > > someone to rip off.
    > > > >
    > > > > That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.
    > > > >
    > > > > > And that's just the start.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
    > > > >
    > > > > Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia even
    > > > > once.
    > > >
    > > > Been there recently?
    > >
    > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
    > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
    > > time, hopefully.
    > >
    > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > > > moment.
    > >
    > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
    > >
    > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > > > >
    > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    > > >
    > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
    > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
    > >
    > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
    > > in London or Berlin.
    >
    >
    > DFM's point is that the UK and Germany have a fairly sufficient social
    > safety net for their senior citizens.

My point is that poverty exists in the UK and Germany as well. If you
feel that you can't visit Russia because you cannot bear the sight of
the occassional begging pensioner, how can you then bear visiting
Germany with all the prostitution and drug-addicts, or visiting the UK
with all beggars and homeless people?

    > Russia does not, hence the number of
    > elderly pensioners begging and selling things on the street. Did you every
    > hear about the dire ruble devaluations that wiped out the life savings of
    > many Russian pensioners?
    >
    >
    > > > > > This is
    > > > > > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find disturbing.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to tourist
    > > > > > prices if you don't speak the language.
    > > > >
    > > > > Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are reasonable
    > > > > anyway.
    > > >
    > > > And shops,
    > >
    > > Huh?
    > >
    > > > restaurants,
    > >
    > > Huh?
    > >
    > > > and any markets around the place...
    > >
    > > Huh?
    > >
    > > > > > And of course not many folk do
    > > > > > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate you
    > from
    > > > > > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.
    > > > >
    > > > > It varies. As everywhere else.
    > > >
    > > > I disagree. Moscow has very consistent surly customer service.
    > >
    > > I disagree. There is simply a cultural difference when it comes to the
    > > usage of smiles and certain empty phrases, which are overused in
    > > certain other places. The service itself is about the same as anywhere
    > > else. (Perhaps I should add that I don't consider a foolish smile and
    > > a phrase like "How are you today?" to be part of service).
    > >
    >
    >
    > Rudeness is a characteristic of *all* Russians wherever they may be.

You are an asshole. Let me explain why: Firstly because you do not
even try to understand a different culture. Secondly because you do
not even consider that you may not have seen enough of the different
aspects of the society in order to be qualified to pass such a
judgement.

    > Japanese frex are not especially "friendly" and they are not overly warm to
    > strangers, but they have excellent manners and treat total strangers in a
    > generally civil manner. Russians are opposite - they are abrupt, rude, and
    > have the manners of pigs, even to those they are acquainted with.
    >
    > Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when they are
    > falling - down drunk.

This is racist drivel.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
snip

    >>Japanese frex are not especially "friendly" and they are not overly warm to
    >>strangers, but they have excellent manners and treat total strangers in a
    >>generally civil manner. Russians are opposite - they are abrupt, rude, and
    >>have the manners of pigs, even to those they are acquainted with.
    >>Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when they are
    >>falling - down drunk.

    > This is racist drivel.
    >
    > Bjorn

It would only be racist if he applied it to all Slavics including the Poles.

    >> You should see how complicated it is for Russians to visit the EU
    > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal class".
    > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries,
    > using the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs,
    > prostitution, goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to mention
    > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not
    > to spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > desirable tourist demographic.

It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
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<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

    >>> Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when
    >>> they are falling - down drunk.
    >> This is racist drivel.
    > It would only be racist if he applied it to all Slavics including the
    > Poles.

Okay, it is nationalist drivel. I will wager that I have met many more
Russians than Morrow. Russia includes all personality types, just like
most countries. And like most humans who drink too much alcohol,
Russians are less civil when drunk.


Pete

[email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> You should see how complicated it is for Russians to visit the EU
    > > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal class".
    > > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries,
    > > using the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs,
    > > prostitution, goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    > > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to mention
    > > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not
    > > to spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > > desirable tourist demographic.
    >
    > It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    > except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    > always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    > Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    > nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?

Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.

Bjorn

"Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] k.net>...
    > >>> Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when
    > >>> they are falling - down drunk.
    > >>
    > >> This is racist drivel.
    > >
    > > It would only be racist if he applied it to all Slavics including the
    > > Poles.
    >
    > Okay, it is nationalist drivel.

I'll settle for just "drivel", if it comes to that.

    > I will wager that I have met many more
    > Russians than Morrow.

Me too.

    > Russia includes all personality types, just like
    > most countries.

Exactly.

    > And like most humans who drink too much alcohol,
    > Russians are less civil when drunk.

Yes, but contrary to popular expectation, all Russians I know (and I
know a few dozen) drink with moderation. Some don't drink at all.

Bjorn