Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >> You should see how complicated it is for Russians to visit the EU
    > > > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal
class".
    > > > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries,
    > > > using the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs,
    > > > prostitution, goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    > > > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to
mention
    > > > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not
    > > > to spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > > > desirable tourist demographic.
    > >
    > > It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > > provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    > > except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    > > always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    > > Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    > > nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.


Egypt is another big destination for Russians - but it's nothing to do with
"stupid visa rules" - Egypt and the countries you mention are rock - bottom
cheap for Russians to visit, e.g. a week or two's inclusive holiday is often
no more than several hundred Euros...

Russians are really at the bottom end of the tourist demographic.

--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >
    > > [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > >> You should see how complicated it is for Russians to visit the EU
    > > > > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal
    > class".
    > > > > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries,
    > > > > using the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs,
    > > > > prostitution, goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    > > > > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to
    > mention
    > > > > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not
    > > > > to spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > > > > desirable tourist demographic.
    > > >
    > > > It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > > > provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    > > > except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    > > > always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    > > > Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    > > > nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > >
    > > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    >
    >
    > Egypt is another big destination for Russians - but it's nothing to do with
    > "stupid visa rules" - Egypt and the countries you mention are rock - bottom
    > cheap for Russians to visit, e.g. a week or two's inclusive holiday is often
    > no more than several hundred Euros...

Cyprus is another big destination for Russians, although it's not any
cheaper than Greece and some other EU member states. It's mostly to do
with visa rules.

    > Russians are really at the bottom end of the tourist demographic.

You do like sweeping generalizations, don't you? There are Russians -
many Russians - at all possible economic levels. Out of the total 150
million, my guess is that probably somewhere around a quarter could
afford holidays in Spain, Greece, Italy and other mediterranean EU
member states. That's somewhere around 30 million potential
money-spending visitors per year that the EU does its best to keep
out. Which seems pretty stupid to me.

Bjorn

    >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.

I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
except in Trabzon (where, along with the Mkhedruli, it was aimed at the
cross-border small traders and prostitutes from the Caucasus) and saw
none this time in Urfa or Diyarbakir. So my question was more specific:
why Russians in Antalya, rather than why Russians in Turkey?

The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
from Cyprus.

When you come into Ullapool harbour in the far northwest of Scotland
from the sea, the first (rusty) sign you see is in Russian; it says
NO MOORING HERE. There is a locally specific reason why, and it isn't
that Russians once liked to go on holiday to Scotland.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

    >>> other more welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.

Poland is another one of those countries, but with EU membership
that may change.

    >> Russians are really at the bottom end of the tourist demographic.

Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
approaches 100%.

    > You do like sweeping generalizations, don't you?

Morrow loves those.


Pete

Pete wrote:
    >>>>other more welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.

    > Poland is another one of those countries, but with EU membership
    > that may change.

    >>>Russians are really at the bottom end of the tourist demographic.

    > Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    > 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    > visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
    > approaches 100%.

Of course, they have usually needed one to travel a couple of hundred
miles. Let's ask the proportion that have been over 3000 km from their
home.

    >>You do like sweeping generalizations, don't you?

    > Morrow loves those.
    > Pete

[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...

    > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > > money),
    >
    > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
    > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
    > necessarily charge for the service.

It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
one nights accomodation.

    > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > > days,
    >
    > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.

I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?

    > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    >
    > I wouldn't bother.
    >

Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
requirement. You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
a country like Russia.

    > > Also making sure
    > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    > >
    > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
    > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
    >
    > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
    > Russians to visit the EU, for example.

Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
western, this is the point of view I am taking.

    > >
    > > Been there recently?
    >
    > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
    > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
    > time, hopefully.

I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.
Not a pleasant atmosphere.

    > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > > moment.
    >
    > I doubt that western visitors are affected.

They most certainly are.

    > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > > >
    > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    > >
    > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
    > > are in abundance in Moscow.
    >
    > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
    > in London or Berlin.

This comparison is flawed, and silly.

    > > > > In fact, it
    > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
    > > >
    > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
    > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
    > > > other places.
    > >
    > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
    >
    > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
    > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
    > you could ask for.

As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.
---
DFM

[email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    > >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    > >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    > >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    > >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    >
    > I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    > except in Trabzon

Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:

1. Germans 1,55 million
2. Russians 687 thousand
3. Britons 634 thousand

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm

The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
spending their summer holiday in Turkey.

We spent two weeks in Kemer a couple of years ago, and my guess is
that around 50% of tourists there were Russians. Some restaurants had
menus in Russian, but not in English.

Bjorn

    >> No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    >> extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
    > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?

All of the smart agencies extend the visa just in case. For instance,
if I want to visit for the second and third weeks in June, a smart
agency or traveler will obtain a visa for the the last three weeks of
June. Then if I want to extend my visit I do not have to worry about
my visa. I have done this myself, adding two weeks to my visa, up
to the maximum of 30 days for a tourist visa.

    >> > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    >> I wouldn't bother.
    > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems.

Read http://www.ruscon.org. That requirement is no longer valid.
Note also that Russia now has the same requirement for American
citizens for overstaying a past visa, i.e. see a consular official if you
ever did it.


Pete

    >> Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    >> 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    >> visit Mexico.

Hi,

why would they have a passport to visit mexico?

a US National can visit Canada, Mexico, Jamaica and a host of other
countries passport free.

    >> I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports approaches 100%.

it's much higher... especially older people with older passports
(pre-schengen)...

but then I don't have to have a passport to travel from one State in
these united States... just like you don't have to have a passport to
travel from one State to another in the EU.


--
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted,
and I won't be layed a hand on.
I don't do these things to other people,
and I require the same from them"
J.B. Books (John Wayne)

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    > >
    > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > > > > > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > >
    > > > > > > > > Of all the countries in Europe, why on earth Russia??!?!??!
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > Apart from being extra-intimidating at the moment courtesy
of
    > > various
    > > > > > > > > terror groups, little consideration is made to make life
easy
    > > for
    > > > > > > > > ANYONE, let alone someone in a wheelchair!!! Especially
Moscow,
    > > which
    > > > > > > > > is harrowing for even the most able bodied person.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > "Harrowing"? How is it "harrowing" for an able-bodied person?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Well, where do you want me to start? It is a very
tourist-unfriendly
    > > > > > > place,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > You are excaggerating.
    > > > >
    > > > > Pigs arse I am. I have been to almost every country in Europe now,
and
    > > > > Russia trumps when it comes to making you feel unwelcome. All of the
    > > > > former soviet states, and even Albania are far more welcoming than
    > > > > Russia.
    > > >
    > > > I disagree.
    > > >
    > > > > > > and long before you step onto the plane to Russia, the hassles
    > > > > > > of getting a visa are enough to turn your hair white.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Just book a hotel, they send you an invitation letter, then apply
for
    > > > > > a visa. It's not *that* complicated, is it?
    > > > >
    > > > > Huh???
    > > > >
    > > > > First book AND pay for a hotel,
    > > >
    > > > You'd usually do that anyway.
    > > >
    > > > > including paying for the invitation,
    > > >
    > > > Not necessarily:
    > > >
    > > > http://www.tourintel.ru/visa.html
    > > >
    > > > > then send it to the embassy (with money), then wait,
    > > >
    > > > That's a usual visa application procedure, as for any country
    > > > requiring a visa.
    > > >
    > > > > then check the
    > > > > visa with a fine tooth comb for mistakes (like they made on my last
    > > > > one),
    > > >
    > > > The 12 or 13 visas I've been issued have all been free of mistakes.
    > > >
    > > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > > > > money),
    > > >
    > > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
    > > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
    > > > necessarily charge for the service.
    > >
    > >
    > > The procedures for visiting Russian have remained relatively unchanged
since
    > > the bad old Soviet days...that's why so few people visit the place. Who
    > > needs all that stupid red tape?
    > You are excaggerating. It is relatively simple to get a visa and plan
    > a visit. Hotels can be booked an paid for through the Internet, for
    > example (which is a big change since SU days).
    > > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > > > > days,
    > > >
    > > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    > > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
    > > >
    > > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    > > >
    > > > I wouldn't bother.
    > > >
    > > > > Also making sure
    > > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    > > > >
    > > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea,
but
    > > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
    > > >
    > > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
    > > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
    > >
    > >
    > > But that's because Russians are generally considered a "criminal class".
    > > Some of them are seeking to emigrate illegally to Western countries,
using
    > > the guise of "tourism"...many others are involved in drugs,
prostitution,
    > > goods/money smuggling and other such shady affairs...
    > >
    > > And in any case Russians as a group are relatively poor (not to mention
    > > cheap, worse even than the Swiss or Dutch or Koreans) - they tend not to
    > > spend a lot of money abroad when they travel....they are not a real
    > > desirable tourist demographic.
    > The Cypriots seem to disagree, judging from their worries about having
    > to introduce visas for russians if joining the EU.
    > > > > > > Once you get
    > > > > > > there, you have to endure customs,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I have never had any luggage checked by customs on arrival.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > and try to get to your destination
    > > > > > > without being ripped off too much.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I have never been ripped off trying to get to my destination.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > Sheremetevyo (sp?) airport in
    > > > > > > Moscow has loads of sleazy taxi touts, who are clearly looking
for
    > > > > > > someone to rip off.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > That's why you should take a bus, or book a taxi beforehand.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > And that's just the start.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > There are always military and police everywhere checking papers,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Over a dozen visits, and I have never been checked by militsia
even
    > > > > > once.
    > > > >
    > > > > Been there recently?
    > > >
    > > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
    > > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
    > > > time, hopefully.
    > > >
    > > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > > > > moment.
    > > >
    > > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
    > > >
    > > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting
down
    > > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark
skin,
    > > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then
there is
    > > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    > > > >
    > > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin.
They
    > > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
    > > >
    > > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
    > > > in London or Berlin.
    > >
    > >
    > > DFM's point is that the UK and Germany have a fairly sufficient social
    > > safety net for their senior citizens.
    > My point is that poverty exists in the UK and Germany as well. If you
    > feel that you can't visit Russia because you cannot bear the sight of
    > the occassional begging pensioner, how can you then bear visiting
    > Germany with all the prostitution and drug-addicts, or visiting the UK
    > with all beggars and homeless people?


Germany and the UK are far richer places with a decent social safety net for
pensioners and anybody else who wants to take advantage of the social
welfare system. It has to be heartbreaking to see elderly veterans (or
their widows) of the Great Patriotic War selling pencils or even their
military medals on the streets of Russian cities...

Druggies and prosties I can take, but not the sight of elderly folks
begging - it's humiliating personally to me.


    > > Russia does not, hence the number of
    > > elderly pensioners begging and selling things on the street. Did you
every
    > > hear about the dire ruble devaluations that wiped out the life savings
of
    > > many Russian pensioners?
    > >
    > >
    > > > > > > This is
    > > > > > > something even a jaded arsehole like myself would find
disturbing.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Damn near every transaction is liable to be padded out to
tourist
    > > > > > > prices if you don't speak the language.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Mainly at state-owned museums, where the tourist prices are
reasonable
    > > > > > anyway.
    > > > >
    > > > > And shops,
    > > >
    > > > Huh?
    > > >
    > > > > restaurants,
    > > >
    > > > Huh?
    > > >
    > > > > and any markets around the place...
    > > >
    > > > Huh?
    > > >
    > > > > > > And of course not many folk do
    > > > > > > speak english in Moscow, or of they do, it's to help separate
you
    > > from
    > > > > > > your cash. Customer service is about as bad as it gets.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > It varies. As everywhere else.
    > > > >
    > > > > I disagree. Moscow has very consistent surly customer service.
    > > >
    > > > I disagree. There is simply a cultural difference when it comes to the
    > > > usage of smiles and certain empty phrases, which are overused in
    > > > certain other places. The service itself is about the same as anywhere
    > > > else. (Perhaps I should add that I don't consider a foolish smile and
    > > > a phrase like "How are you today?" to be part of service).
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Rudeness is a characteristic of *all* Russians wherever they may be.
    > You are an asshole.


Some would daresay that you are letting me off pretty lightly :-)


Let me explain why: Firstly because you do not
    > even try to understand a different culture. Secondly because you do
    > not even consider that you may not have seen enough of the different
    > aspects of the society in order to be qualified to pass such a
    > judgement.


I've met hundreds and hundreds of Russians over the years (many Russian
emigres even live in my neighborhood, I've worked with plenty of them, I've
visited their businesses...). I can't help the fact that I've observed
certain traits among all of them....


    > > Japanese frex are not especially "friendly" and they are not overly
warm to
    > > strangers, but they have excellent manners and treat total strangers in
a
    > > generally civil manner. Russians are opposite - they are abrupt, rude,
and
    > > have the manners of pigs, even to those they are acquainted with.
    > >
    > > Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when they
are
    > > falling - down drunk.
    > This is racist drivel.


It would behoove you gloomy Swedes to holiday in happier places like Italy
and Spain or Florida or Australia - why go to some depressing place like
Russia?

With your attitude it's no wonder Sweden is known as the land of Ingmar
Bergman and suicides :-)

--
Best
Greg

Frank F. Matthews wrote:

    > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    > > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > snip
    > >>Japanese frex are not especially "friendly" and they are not overly
warm to
    > >>strangers, but they have excellent manners and treat total strangers in
a
    > >>generally civil manner. Russians are opposite - they are abrupt, rude,
and
    > >>have the manners of pigs, even to those they are acquainted with.
    > >>
    > >>Basically the only time Russians even *approach* civility is when they
are
    > >>falling - down drunk.
    > > This is racist drivel.
    > >
    > > Bjorn
    > It would only be racist if he applied it to all Slavics including the
Poles.


Poles are a fairly friendly bunch. Russians are not.

--
Best
Greg

Pete wrote:

    > And like most humans who drink too much alcohol,
    > Russians are less civil when drunk.


Nonsense. Irish folk are generally a *lot* friendlier after a few
drinks...as are Poles. Both cultures have a component that revolves around
drinking. And both Ireland and Poland have had pretty crummy histories, as
has Russia.

So what's the matter with Russians? Why so rude and nasty and unsmiling and
gloomy whether drinking or not?

--
Best
Greg

Pete wrote:

    > >>> other more welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    > Poland is another one of those countries, but with EU membership
    > that may change.
    > >> Russians are really at the bottom end of the tourist demographic.
    > Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    > 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    > visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
    > approaches 100%.
    > > You do like sweeping generalizations, don't you?
    > Morrow loves those.


"Pete meet Strawman...Strawman meet Pete..." :-)

--
Best
Greg

bogus address wrote:

    > >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    > >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    > >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    > >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    > >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    > I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    > except in Trabzon (where, along with the Mkhedruli, it was aimed at the
    > cross-border small traders and prostitutes from the Caucasus) and saw
    > none this time in Urfa or Diyarbakir. So my question was more specific:
    > why Russians in Antalya, rather than why Russians in Turkey?
    > The two explanations that come to mind are (1) that it's air travel and
    > that some Russian tour operator is promoting the area in the way that
    > southern Spain was sold to the British in the Seventies, or (2) that
    > it's aimed at Russians or Russian-speaking Balkan Slavs coming by sea
    > from Cyprus.


Mostly the former. There are a lot of Russian travel agencies that operate
cheap package tours to Turkey, Egypt, etc. the way UK operators did to Spain
in the 60's - 70's...there are tons of creaky ex - Aeroflot planes to hire
and plenty of inexpensive hotels in these countries to fill up so they are
popular destinations for Russians...

Check out some of the websites of some of the Moscow airports. On the
"schedules" pages you'll that there are plenty of charters to Mediterranean
destinations...

What will be the first place in the Eastern Mediterranean to be dubbed the
"Russian Benidorm", I wonder...???

;-p



    > When you come into Ullapool harbour in the far northwest of Scotland
    > from the sea, the first (rusty) sign you see is in Russian; it says
    > NO MOORING HERE. There is a locally specific reason why, and it isn't
    > that Russians once liked to go on holiday to Scotland.


*lol*

--
Best
Greg

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > > >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign
language
    > > >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and
not
    > > >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of
well-heeled
    > > >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they?
Russian
    > > >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > > > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > > > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > > > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > > > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > > > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > > > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > > > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    > >
    > > I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    > > except in Trabzon
    > Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:
    > 1. Germans 1,55 million
    > 2. Russians 687 thousand
    > 3. Britons 634 thousand


It's very nearly a decade later by now...

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm
    > The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
    > spending their summer holiday in Turkey.
    > We spent two weeks in Kemer a couple of years ago, and my guess is
    > that around 50% of tourists there were Russians. Some restaurants had
    > menus in Russian, but not in English.


A number of Russians visit Turkey for goods trading purposes. Same thing
with Dubai, another destination that has a goodly number of Russian
visitors...

--
Best
Greg