>> Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    >> 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    >> visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
    >> approaches 100%.

Do Americans even need a passport to visit Mexico?
I know they didn't used to, as recently as 15 years ago.

Bill Moore wrote:

    > >> Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    > >> 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    > >> visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
    > >> approaches 100%.
    > Do Americans even need a passport to visit Mexico?
    > I know they didn't used to, as recently as 15 years ago.


It's recommended that you use a passport but IIRC it's possible to go using
a driver's license/state ID card and a certified copy of one's birth
certificate...

--
Best
Greg

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    >> >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign language
    >> >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and not
    >> >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of well-heeled
    >> >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they? Russian
    >> >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    >> > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    >> > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    >> > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    >> > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    >> > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    >> > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    >> > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    >>
    >> I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    >> except in Trabzon
    >
    > Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:
    >
    > 1. Germans 1,55 million
    > 2. Russians 687 thousand
    > 3. Britons 634 thousand
    >
    > http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm
    >
    > The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
    > spending their summer holiday in Turkey.


Does that include hookers who cross the Northern border on a daily basis
to ply their trade in Turkey, much to the despair of local competition?

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:29:44 -0500, Anonymouse wrote:

    >
    >>> Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    >>> 20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    >>> visit Mexico.
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > why would they have a passport to visit mexico?
    >
    > a US National can visit Canada, Mexico, Jamaica and a host of other
    > countries passport free.

But can they go back to the US? :-)

"devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]. ..
    > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >> [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
    >> news:<[email protected]>...
    >>> >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    >>> >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign
    >>> >> language
    >>> >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and
    >>> >> not
    >>> >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of
    >>> >> well-heeled
    >>> >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they?
    >>> >> Russian
    >>> >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    >>> > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    >>> > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    >>> > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    >>> > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    >>> > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    >>> > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    >>> > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    >>> I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    >>> except in Trabzon
    >> Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:
    >> 1. Germans 1,55 million
    >> 2. Russians 687 thousand
    >> 3. Britons 634 thousand
    >> http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm
    >> The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
    >> spending their summer holiday in Turkey.
    > Does that include hookers who cross the Northern border on a daily basis
    > to ply their trade in Turkey, much to the despair of local competition?
------------------------------------------------------
There's no border Russia-Turkey.
And those trying to reach Turkey will face some problems crossing civil wars
and finally the mentioned local competition.
    >

    > Do Americans even need a passport to visit Mexico?
    > I know they didn't used to, as recently as 15 years ago.

Technically, probably not. But anyone who leaves the USA
without a passport after 9/11 (and the TSA) is just asking for it.


Pete

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:54:42 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:

    >
    > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:[email protected]. ..
    >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >>> [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
    >>> news:<[email protected]>...
    >>>> >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    >>>> >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign
    >>>> >> language
    >>>> >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and
    >>>> >> not
    >>>> >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of
    >>>> >> well-heeled
    >>>> >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they?
    >>>> >> Russian
    >>>> >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    >>>> > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    >>>> > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    >>>> > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    >>>> > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    >>>> > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    >>>> > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    >>>> > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    >>>> I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    >>>> except in Trabzon
    >>> Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:
    >>> 1. Germans 1,55 million
    >>> 2. Russians 687 thousand
    >>> 3. Britons 634 thousand
    >>> http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm
    >>> The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
    >>> spending their summer holiday in Turkey.
    >> Does that include hookers who cross the Northern border on a daily basis
    >> to ply their trade in Turkey, much to the despair of local competition?
    > ------------------------------------------------------
    > There's no border Russia-Turkey.
    > And those trying to reach Turkey will face some problems crossing civil wars
    > and finally the mentioned local competition.

Just crossing Georgia or a short crossing on the Black sea I guess?

But I understand that the market much prefers them to local competition.

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] ink.net>...
    > Bjorn Olsson wrote:
    >
    > > [email protected] (bogus address) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > >> It mystified me a bit last week seeing how much information was being
    > > > >> provided in Russian in Antalya: more than in any other foreign
    > language
    > > > >> except English. Both by tourism publishers and sales outlets, and
    > not
    > > > >> always for cheap tacky stuff. There are obviously a lot of
    > well-heeled
    > > > >> Russian speakers with taste visiting the place. Who are they?
    > Russian
    > > > >> nouveau riche or Balkan mafiosi holed up in Greek Cyprus?
    > > > > Bloody typical that you'd be "mystified" by Russians going on holiday
    > > > > abroad and start speculating about "mafiosos".. Most of them are (of
    > > > > course) ordinary middle-class Russians. Many of the millions of
    > > > > ordinary middle-class Russians who wish to spend their hard-earned
    > > > > rubles abroad but are rejected by the stupid EU visa rules spend
    > > > > their holidays (and money) in Turkey, Cyprus, Tunisia, and other more
    > > > > welcoming countries with less stupid visa rules.
    > > >
    > > > I have never previously seen print in Cyrillic anywhere else in Turkey
    > > > except in Trabzon
    > >
    > > Visititor statistics for Turkey in 1997:
    > >
    > > 1. Germans 1,55 million
    > > 2. Russians 687 thousand
    > > 3. Britons 634 thousand
    >
    >
    > It's very nearly a decade later by now...

I didn't find later statistics, but several articles discussing the
increase since then. As I said, the current yearly figure is probably
over 1 million.

    > http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_...10_97/econ.htm
    > >
    > > The current yearly figure is probably in excess of 1 million Russians
    > > spending their summer holiday in Turkey.
    > >
    > > We spent two weeks in Kemer a couple of years ago, and my guess is
    > > that around 50% of tourists there were Russians. Some restaurants had
    > > menus in Russian, but not in English.
    >
    >
    > A number of Russians visit Turkey for goods trading purposes.

And?

Björn

[email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Deep Flawed Muslim) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    >
    > > > then register the thing (the hotel will do this, for more
    > > > money),
    > >
    > > They simply keep your passport for half a day, and then return it to
    > > you. How can that be characterized as "complicated"? And they don't
    > > necessarily charge for the service.
    >
    > It is usual they charge for registration, generally in the region of
    > one nights accomodation.

Now, I rarely stay in hotels, but as far as I remember, the charges I
have come across were between zero and two dollars. You're telling me
they would charge up to a hundred dollars?! Can you provide a concrete
example of this?

    > > > oh, and oh course make sure you enter any exit on the precise
    > > > days,
    > >
    > > No, you can enter late and exit early. In other words, you can add
    > > extra days for the eventuality of changed plans. I always do this.
    >
    > I do not believe you. Can you provide a cite that says this is policy?

No, but I can promise you that I've done this maybe 10 times or so.

    > > > plus re-registering it in each city you go to.
    > >
    > > I wouldn't bother.
    > >
    >
    > Then you would be exposing yourself to potential problems. It IS a
    > requirement.

Are you sure?

    > You are hardly making a solid case for the visa process
    > being straightforward, unless you are recommending cutting some
    > corners. I don't know many people prepared to take risks like that in
    > a country like Russia.
    >
    > > > Also making sure
    > > > you don't lose any of the supporting documents.
    > > >
    > > > Yes, it IS that complicated. Perhaps not compared to North Korea, but
    > > > where else is more difficult in Europe? Belarus?
    > >
    > > Depends on your nationality. You should see how complicated it is for
    > > Russians to visit the EU, for example.
    >
    > Given that the overwhelming majority of people reading this are
    > western, this is the point of view I am taking.

How narrow-minded.

    > > > Been there recently?
    > >
    > > Half a year ago. I usually go twice a year, but had to skip this
    > > summer due to illness in the family. I'll be going again by christmas
    > > time, hopefully.
    >
    > I was there 2 months ago, and police checks were VERY common. Police
    > and military are outside many metro stations checking peoples papers.

Did they check yours?

    > Not a pleasant atmosphere.
    >
    > > > Vigilance is going through the roof at the
    > > > moment.
    > >
    > > I doubt that western visitors are affected.
    >
    > They most certainly are.

I doubt it.

    > > > > > giving the place an appropriate big-brother feel. Try sitting down
    > > > > > somewhere outside a station, and watch them hassle passers-by.
    > > > > > Eventually they will tell you to move on too. If you have dark skin,
    > > > > > you can expect them to check you papers twice as much. Then there is
    > > > > > the incredibly sad sight of pensioners begging for money.
    > > > >
    > > > > There's not so many, considering the size of the city. English,
    > > > > German, etc, major cities have more beggars.
    > > >
    > > > I have never seen an elderly person begging in London or Berlin. They
    > > > are in abundance in Moscow.
    > >
    > > I have never seen a teenager begging in Russia. They are in abundance
    > > in London or Berlin.
    >
    > This comparison is flawed, and silly.

Why? If the sight of begging people upsets you so much that you find
it a reason not to visit Moscow, how can you then visit London or
Berlin?

    > > > > > In fact, it
    > > > > > seems like 'spasiba' is completely disused by the local.
    > > > >
    > > > > They don't waste time on meaningless phrases. Once you get used to
    > > > > that, you'll notice that they are as helpful/unhelpful as in most
    > > > > other places.
    > > >
    > > > Would it kill a Muscovite to smile once in a while?
    > >
    > > It is not their custom to fake smiles, as we do. Spend time with
    > > Muscovite friends, on the other hand, and you'll see all the smiles
    > > you could ask for.
    >
    > As I said, it is NOT tourist friendly.

So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.

Bjorn

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...

    > Druggies and prosties I can take, but not the sight of elderly folks
    > begging - it's humiliating personally to me.

I don't know why you expect your personal preference (i.e. being
heartbroken by the sight of a begging pensioner, but indifferent to
the sight of a begging teenager, a teenager on drugs, or a teenager
selling her body on the streets) to be shared by others?

    > It would behoove you gloomy Swedes to holiday in happier places like Italy
    > and Spain or Florida or Australia - why go to some depressing place like
    > Russia?

I've been to all of those places. Out of the five, Florida (Orlando)
was the only one I found depressing. I have never in my life seen so
much fat and stupidity in one place.

    > With your attitude it's no wonder Sweden is known as the land of Ingmar
    > Bergman and suicides :-)

I'm the one having fun and generally enjoying myself in Russia, so
what's this nonsense about suicides? I think the statement would fit
your attitude better.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson wrtoe:

    > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > > Druggies and prosties I can take, but not the sight of elderly folks
    > > begging - it's humiliating personally to me.
    > I don't know why you expect your personal preference (i.e. being
    > heartbroken by the sight of a begging pensioner, but indifferent to
    > the sight of a begging teenager, a teenager on drugs, or a teenager
    > selling her body on the streets) to be shared by others?


Teenagers have their whole life before them and thus have a chance for a
better life. Old people do not.


    > > It would behoove you gloomy Swedes to holiday in happier places like
Italy
    > > and Spain or Florida or Australia - why go to some depressing place like
    > > Russia?
    > I've been to all of those places. Out of the five, Florida (Orlando)
    > was the only one I found depressing. I have never in my life seen so
    > much fat and stupidity in one place.


Agreed - Florida has pretty much been ruined by mass tourism.


    > > With your attitude it's no wonder Sweden is known as the land of Ingmar
    > > Bergman and suicides :-)
    > I'm the one having fun and generally enjoying myself in Russia,


Of course - you are on holiday and you are not Russian.


so
    > what's this nonsense about suicides? I think the statement would fit
    > your attitude better.


I'm not Swedish.

--
Best
Greg

You don't need a passport, but it will work best. You do need some form
of proof of US citizenship to enter Canada; a voter registration would
work, but not a driver's license. Don't know about Mexico as I haven't
been there in over 20 years and have no plans to go; but I would assume
it would be the same as Canada.
--
wf.

Anonymouse wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > why would they have a passport to visit mexico?
    >
    > a US National can visit Canada, Mexico, Jamaica and a host of other
    > countries passport free.

For a fair variety of places in the area what you need is a proof of
citizenship and a proof of identity. The former is usually a birth
certificate or naturalization card the latter is usually a drivers license.

Bill Moore wrote:

    >>>Sorry, Americans rank at the bottom, per population. Only about
    >>>20% of Americans have a passport and lots of those people only
    >>>visit Mexico. I'll bet the percentage of Europeans with passports
    >>>approaches 100%.
    >
    >
    > Do Americans even need a passport to visit Mexico?
    > I know they didn't used to, as recently as 15 years ago.
    >

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

    > So smiles=friendliness, even if faked. I see.


Not at all. I abhor the US concept of fake friendliness in regards to
customer service, it's stupid and infantile. I simply want to be served in
an effecient manner, I don't need to be the service person's best friend.
I'm respectful to service persons and in return I prefer to be treated in a
civil manner (the French strike a nice balance in such matters I think...).
Neither would I want to be constantly subjected to the type of out - of -
bounds rudeness that Russian service personnel are famous for...

Why do you think for example that Aeroflot Russian Airlines is constantly
trying to "re - invent" itself? It all has to do with the public's
perception of their customer service. Look it up for yourself, it's true.

I used to visit the Aeroflot ticket office here in Chicago to pick up
timetables, etc. (I collect airline stuff). The typical routine was that
I'd walk into the office, and nicely say "Good morning. May I please pick
up one of your timetables?". The henna - haired receptionist would glare at
me and ask "Why?". There were always a couple of scowling leather -
jacketed mafiya types hanging about and they'd look out at me like I was
some kind of terrorist. I'd reply "Well I'd just like one of your
timetables, I'm considering flying your airline in the near future...".
She'd shrug, sigh, stab out her cigarette and make a big show of getting up
from her chair and going into the back office to GRUDGINGLY fetch one for
me. She'd rudely proffer it to me without a word and immediately return to
her conversation and smokes with the mafiya dudes...eventually I stopped
going as I really do not fancy unpleasant encounters with miserable mugs in
the course of daily life.

I mean what's the big deal? It's an AIRLINE OFFICE after all - why can't
they just put out timetables, etc. in a rack so people can get one? Why be
so bloody rude to a potential customer or indeed anyone for that matter - am
I as a customer on trial or something? In most any other culture (or at
least airline ticket office) it'd be not even worth mentioning, but this
seems to be the norm for the Russian customer "service" encounter...

Interesting, but I've had pretty much the same exact experiences in the past
20 - odd years at Aeroflot and Transaero offices in Prague, London, New
York, San Francisco, East and West Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt, Montreal...and
also at Russian shops, restaurants, etc. here in Chicago and LA (both have a
large Russian population). Never one instance of politeness, let alone
simple civility. And this goes for the Russians I've worked with and had as
neighbors, too. Who needs it?

Interestingly when I visited the LOT Polish and CSA Czech airline offices
(in Chicago) they bent over backwards to be nice to me, e..g. giving me
timetables, calendars, publicity stuff (ashtrays and coffee mugs even), and
in one instance even a pass to an industry - only travel agent's convention
(with free drink tickets, hey hey!). So what's up with their Big Brother To
The East?

Heck, even when MacDonald's first opened in Moscow back in the early 90's
one of their hiring requirements for the Russian personnel was that the
applicants have *no* prior customer service experience of any kind. The
company did not want any potential employees that had been tainted by the
experience of having provided Soviet - style "customer service" in previous
jobs...they wanted to train new employees themselves so'd they'd learn basic
things like "Please", "Thank You", and even how to smile a little bit.

--
Best
Greg

Bjorn Olsson wrote:

news:[email protected] om...
    > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]>
    > > A number of Russians visit Turkey for goods trading purposes.
    > And?


They are not there to see the sights, they are there to pick up cheap goods
for re - sale back home.

--
Best
Greg