Britain Day ??

Old Jun 6th 2007, 3:53 am
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Default Britain Day ??

Sounds like a good idea to me .We were shocked that the Golden jubilee wasnt celebrated near us,i'm old enough to remember the silver jubilee when we all had street parties,up for weeks making the bunting !!
Does any one else think its a good idea?
Does any one care??
i wish more people would emigrate ,then they might view the UK thru fresh eyes.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 3:58 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by englishrose
Sounds like a good idea to me .We were shocked that the Golden jubilee wasnt celebrated near us,i'm old enough to remember the silver jubilee when we all had street parties,up for weeks making the bunting !!
Does any one else think its a good idea?
Does any one care??
i wish more people would emigrate ,then they might view the UK thru fresh eyes.
Those were the days, my little brother was born that year and I remember the celebrations as though they were yesterday. Sadly the UK is no longer like that and even though it will always be my home there is nothing from my childhood left to celebrate.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 4:03 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by englishrose
Sounds like a good idea to me .We were shocked that the Golden jubilee wasnt celebrated near us,i'm old enough to remember the silver jubilee when we all had street parties,up for weeks making the bunting !!
Does any one else think its a good idea?
Does any one care??
i wish more people would emigrate ,then they might view the UK thru fresh eyes.
But is there a Britain left to celebrate? I would hope there is, but i went to university with people from all over the UK, and the scots and welsh, in particular, didnt regard themselves as british at all, rather just welsh, or just scottish.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 4:12 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by adiestubbs
But is there a Britain left to celebrate? I would hope there is, but i went to university with people from all over the UK, and the scots and welsh, in particular, didnt regard themselves as british at all, rather just welsh, or just scottish.
But isn't the whole point of the exercise to try to strengthen a sense of British identity, without in any way devaluing any of its component nations.

Britain has become a more diverse society - in many ways more like the United States - and will need to look more to the U.S. for ways to develop a common sense of identity, community and shared values among people who are quite different from each other.

Now that the Labour Party have belatedly discovered that they do have a country to belong to, these things can be pushed forward more easily on a bipartisan basis.

It will be instructive to see how "Britain Day" is celebrated in Northern Ireland.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 6:44 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by JAJ
.....

It will be instructive to see how "Britain Day" is celebrated in Northern Ireland.
I think you may have missed a crucial point on this .....Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain so will be unlikely to celebrate 'Britain Day'. It's part of the United Kingdom which is itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm suprised they didn't label it UK day.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 11:30 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by JakeG
I think you may have missed a crucial point on this .....Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain so will be unlikely to celebrate 'Britain Day'. It's part of the United Kingdom which is itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm suprised they didn't label it UK day.
Yes, the use of the word Britain (itself an unofficial one) is often very sloppy. You're certainly right: Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain (which is, in fact, the island that is made up of Scotland, England and Wales).

The word 'British' is frequently used as an adjective pertaining to the UK (as in 'British citiizen' - an official use - or, presumably, 'British values' - an unofficial use). I must say that I have known Northern Ireland people who definitely consider themselves part of the UK (these were people of a Protestant background) balking at the description of them as 'British', maintaining that they were British citizens and part of the UK but considered themselves 'Irish' (in its broad sense) rather than 'British'. On the other hand, some other 'loyalist' people in Northern Ireland are more than happy to describe themselves or be described as 'British', although they may well think of themselves as 'Irish' (in its broad sense) as well.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by JakeG
I think you may have missed a crucial point on this .....Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain so will be unlikely to celebrate 'Britain Day'. It's part of the United Kingdom which is itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm suprised they didn't label it UK day.
This is correct in a constitutional sense, but "on the ground" those who support the union would probably very much like to participate in "Britain day". I remember being in a pub in Larne, Co Antrim with two locals, one of whom spoke alot. The local said of the other "he could speak for bloody Britain he could". I never forgot this (thou was in Sept) because it really summed up to me how strong the bond is for the unionists for Britain.
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Old Jun 6th 2007, 2:26 pm
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by JAJ
But isn't the whole point of the exercise to try to strengthen a sense of British identity, without in any way devaluing any of its component nations.

Britain has become a more diverse society - in many ways more like the United States - and will need to look more to the U.S. for ways to develop a common sense of identity, community and shared values among people who are quite different from each other.

Now that the Labour Party have belatedly discovered that they do have a country to belong to, these things can be pushed forward more easily on a bipartisan basis.

It will be instructive to see how "Britain Day" is celebrated in Northern Ireland.
People in the US share a national anthem, a flag and children are educated from day one that they are "American" and should be very proud of that fact.

I cannot see the Scots going for having a union flag in the corner of the class room and singing "god save the queen" (which is the British, not English anthem) . In fact, ive never been to Scotland but hear that finding a union flag flying is like looking for Lord Lucan. It seems clear to me that Scotland is looking towards an independant future within the EU; maybe not tomorrow, but in the near future. Which is ironic because the next UK prime minister and half the cabinet will be scottish, but will have no say whatsoever over the majority of issues within their own country.

The West lothian question is further upsetting the english and further contributing to the break up of Britain.
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 2:43 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by JakeG
I think you may have missed a crucial point on this .....Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain so will be unlikely to celebrate 'Britain Day'. It's part of the United Kingdom which is itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm suprised they didn't label it UK day.
Northern Ireland is part of "Britain" in exactly the same way as Hawaii is part of "America", or Tasmania part of "Australia".

You may want to note that the Isle of Wight, Scilly Isles, Shetland Islands and Hebrides are not part of the island called "Great Britain" either.
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 2:54 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by adiestubbs
People in the US share a national anthem, a flag and children are educated from day one that they are "American" and should be very proud of that fact.
And isn't that precisely the direction in which the United Kingdom needs to go over the next 10, 20 and 30 years?



I cannot see the Scots going for having a union flag in the corner of the class room and singing "god save the queen" (which is the British, not English anthem) .
There is an argument for a national debate on whether the United Kingdom should adopt a new national anthem, as Australia did in 1977 (after a referendum).

In fact, ive never been to Scotland but hear that finding a union flag flying is like looking for Lord Lucan.
Scottish unionists have felt just as abandoned as Northern Irish unionists. The whole point of a "Britain Day" is to strengthen unionist sentiment in all parts of the United Kingdom and move back towards a state of affairs where unionism is (and is perceived to be) the preserve of the moderate mainstream.

Incidentally, flying the Union Flag should not prevent parallel flying of the Scottish or English (or other) flags. In the United States, state and local governments, plus corporations, almost always fly the state flag alongside the U.S. flag.

It seems clear to me that Scotland is looking towards an independant future within the EU; maybe not tomorrow, but in the near future.
47 seats for the Scottish Nationalist Party (out of 129) does not suggest a nation eager for immediate independence. What will hasten the death of the United Kingdom more than anything is that if unionists simply "throw in the towel" and cease to advocate the benefits of maintaining the Union and a common British citizenship.



Which is ironic because the next UK prime minister and half the cabinet will be scottish, but will have no say whatsoever over the majority of issues within their own country.
The British are simply going to have to get used to the idea that not all things are going to be decided in London in future. The role of the British government is going to evolve into something more similar to the Australian, Canadian or U.S. federal government.
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 3:43 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

47 seats for the Scottish Nationalist Party (out of 129) does not suggest a nation eager for immediate independence. What will hasten the death of the United Kingdom more than anything is that if unionists simply "throw in the towel" and cease to advocate the benefits of maintaining the Union and a common British citizenship.
No, agreed. However, the SNP are the largest party in the parliament for the first time. These things do take time, but there is no doubt that a gradual slide towards independance is taking place. Ive no doubt that 30 years ago a majority supported the monarchy in Australia; now all opinion polls suggest this has reversed.

It is difficult to argue the unionist cause on a political level when Scots recieve much higher public spending per capita and the refusal to answer the west lothian question. On a more "pub talk" level, many english are angered by Scots supporting any football team playing England, even those nations who have fought against the British army, like Argentina ( and killed members of scottish regiments too).
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 3:49 am
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The British are simply going to have to get used to the idea that not all things are going to be decided in London in future. The role of the British government is going to evolve into something more similar to the Australian, Canadian or U.S. federal government
In Australia and the US the federal governments can happily cede power to states as there is no desire for states to break away from the country itself. There is no strong nationalist West Australian movement, or California independance party, unlike in Scotland or Wales.

Has Canada giving more autonomy to Quebec finished the independance movement there, or is it stronger than ever and growing, with increasing demands for more powers?
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 3:56 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by adiestubbs
No, agreed. However, the SNP are the largest party in the parliament for the first time. These things do take time, but there is no doubt that a gradual slide towards independance is taking place.
A gradual slide maybe, but "gradual slides" can be reversed. What the SNP has achieved is nothing compared to what Quebec nationalists achieved in November 1976 - and yet 30 years later, they have still failed to persuade enough people to go for independence.

And in 1933 Western Australia voted to leave the Commonwealth of Australia.

Ive no doubt that 30 years ago a majority supported the monarchy in Australia; now all opinion polls suggest this has reversed.
Forget opinion polls - look at the result of the 1999 referendum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Au...lic_referendum


It is difficult to argue the unionist cause on a political level when Scots recieve much higher public spending per capita and the refusal to answer the west lothian question. On a more "pub talk" level, many english are angered by Scots supporting any football team playing England, even those nations who have fought against the British army, like Argentina ( and killed members of scottish regiments too).
Bottom line is that nationalism is on the rise in the British Isles. It would be far better if some this was channeled into a positive British identity, rather than the more narrow and sectarian nationalism that is the alternative.

From the outside it is quite surprising to see how defeatist and dispirited British people have become over the future of their nation, both in relation to threats from without (Irish nationalism, Europe) and from within (Scottish and English secessionism). It seems more reminiscent of France circa 1940.
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 4:01 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

Originally Posted by adiestubbs
In Australia and the US the federal governments can happily cede power to states as there is no desire for states to break away from the country itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


There is no strong nationalist West Australian movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessi...tern_Australia

Has Canada giving more autonomy to Quebec finished the independance movement there, or is it stronger than ever and growing, with increasing demands for more powers?
At the most recent election in Quebec, the Parti Quebecois was relegated to third place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_...ection%2C_2007

A sense of Quebec nationhood has not gone away. It almost certainly never will. But by the same token, the majority in Quebec, even those of a nationalist persuasion (except the 30% hard-core) want to keep their Canadian passports and Canadian dollars.
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Old Jun 7th 2007, 4:10 am
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Default Re: Britain Day ??

[ 140 years ago. Wouldnt/couldnt happen again.



Surely no desire for this now.


At the most recent election in Quebec, the Parti Quebecois was relegated to third place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_...ection%2C_2007
Im happy to stand corrected. However, the quebec indepedance people must shout loudest because they get more coverage than the rest!
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