Meow

You really do need to properly read what lullabelle has explained in a very rational manner and stop side stepping the main issues.

seven seas

If you express views that are the wrong kind of wrong, then you're a troll. As flawed as the arguments were, they received a response and that may lead to some kind of debate.

It's best to stop any debate nonsense, just call him a troll and be done with it... Better yet, just say it's brainless, that should settle things...

norsk

1. converts are usually more extreme than those born into a religion. this is not news to anyone and applies equally to all religions, but with muslim converts it seems to be more pronounced and particularly noticed. i've had it explained (by an imam nonetheless) as the convert trying to compensate for having been a non-believer up until that point in their life. basically as he said; they are trying a bit too hard to be good muslims...

2. a nun is a dedicated servant of god, ie it's their calling. call it their job if you want. you can hardly compare that to a run of the mill catholic believer who goes to church on a sunday and prays every night.

lullabelle's post is bloody excellent and puts the finger straight in the eye of what i agree sounds like the root cause. this is all about power and grabbing something back. we must not forget that the emiratis are effectively living like foreigners in their own country. that can't be easy to be honest especially for those who are not rolling in cash. and of course there is no way back to the way it was...despite all the silly calls for the foreigners to leave by individuals who are particularly frustrated.

desert dweller you may as well go back to the empty quarter...

mikewot

Those who come to a conclusion by a process without rational, logical thought, cannot be dissuaded from that conclusion by logical, rational argument.

desert_dwellers

Interesting quote, it sounds like it was taken from a Tory manifesto

desert_dwellers

At the moment my empty quarter is the valleys of wales, which one is yours, geographically I mean ...

norsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub'_al_Khali

mikewot

Nope. I stumbled over it as an explanation as to why it's pointless attempting to argue with those inflicted with religious 'faith'. It is equably applicable to the wearing of these garments, not thought through using logic.

Boomhauer

Converts try to me more Muslim than Muhammed. A dispropotionate number of French Muslim women sporting the Niqab are converts.

mathematist

[QUOTE=lullabelle;10126955]The are a small minority of women who choose to wear the veil in the UK. having worked on this subject so many times, I can tell you that usually they are very, very uber- religious and often supremely badly educated about why they are wearing the veil in the first place. I remember one girl becoming very aggressive when I talked about the TWO passages in the Koran that speak of women covering (there is much more about men covering.) I wasn't allowed to disagree with her skewed version of events because I wasn't Muslim. And her only argument was to shout and behave in a very hostile manner. Many, many other women I spoke to said they wore it because of family pressure - yes it was their choice but it was a resigned choice and they really didn't have any other option if they wanted to remain within the family circle.

I have several Saudi friends (who live in Dubai) - all but one hate having to be covered. They find it oppressive. Interestingly, the one who is ok with it was educated totally in Saudi whereas the others were sent away at some point.

They do not wear the abaya in Dubai/Abu Dhabi, not do they believe their daughters should. Their take on UAE women wearing the abaya is that they are wearing it to claim their nationality - to proclaim it, make them stand out and be different. They get better treatment and feel more exclusive. Its why an Egyptian friend I had in Abu Dhabi wore one, despite her British Muslim husband hating it and thinking she was bonkers. She wanted to meet Emirati women and to be treated with more respect in malls etc. She wanted people to think she was Emirati, and have all that goes with it. She liked the idea of everyone thinking she was wealthy and exclusive.

It's a cultural thing anyway, and it wasn't national dress until about thirty years ago. Older Emirati women are often bemused by it - I knew one old Bedouin who refused point blank to wear it and who would cackle with laughter every time her western grand daughters-in-law would cover up to leave the house.

In abu Dhabi I worked with an Egyptian girl who was covered from head to toe - but that covering consisted of a headscarf with clothes that were anything but modest... Skin tight leggings, jeans, tops. She exclaimed that she would never let any man except her husband/family member see her hair, yet you could pretty much see what she had for breakfast.


QUOTE]

A well thought argument against womens clothing in Islam.

Unfortunately, they are all statistically INSIGNIFICANT. You ask a women here, a couple there, and a few more here and there and your conclusions are that most Muslim women are forced, coerced and pressurised to wear it. Maybe 6-10 women in your post.

The views of of people living in glitzy and glamorous Dubai could well be different to people living in Al Ain, RAK, Sharjah etc....

Even the other intelligent posters should realise this. It's like me saying that all white Brits are racist if a survey, say on their views on multiculturalism, was carried out in (riot hit) Oldham or Dagenham for instance. It will NOT portray an accurate reflection or an investigation like the cause of the UK riots by only interviewing the youths who live on council estates etc...

Come on, they are cheap shots and used to demonise the overwhelming vast majority of women who out of religious, personal and cultural conviction, CHOOSE to wear it a loose fitting abaya or similar.

Of course, just because somebody wears an abaya, veil etc and they are not able to convey their reasons for doing it in a coherent structured way against somebody, who clearly can like you, they will rant and rave and become defensive and/or aggressive when they feel they are being criticised for their beliefs. Anybody would on any topic if it's close to home.

As for one of your Egyptian friends who covers her hair yet wears very tight clothing, your're spot on. It is highly likely that she doesn't understand the correct concept of the Hijab and is trying to merge her culture with a mish-mash of western dressing thrown in. Many do and I think they too send a wrong message as to what is acceptable or not that confuses people further.

With your regards to Emirati wearing the abaya out due to wanting to stand out, again, what a shallow generalisation. You do not know anybody's intentions why they wear it and is totally unfair unless a census was carried out.

I agree with one thing though, just because people wear 'modest' clothing, abaya or not, it does NOT in any shape or form make them better than anybody, Muslim or not. That comes about with your dealings with other people, manners and relationships you have. The external image of your appearance should reflect your personal beliefs. Unfortunately, that is not always the case Muslim, Arab or otherwise.

Bahtatboy

lullabelle

Oh FFS.

I've interviewed probably close to over a hundred women over the years on this subject. I was giving examples, you pedantic mare. If I listed every single chat I'd ever had on the subject we'd be here until next year. I already write enough in a post. At least I'm speaking from some kind of experience.

There were several Muslim women wearing tight clothing in my old office - I was giving an example, again. Hence the one Egyptian. And how do you know what she was thinking about her religion? Here's some more examples. A young Emirati girl wore an open abaya, uncovered hair and some very sexy clothing underneath. The girl in charge of the health cards again was covered but in very tight fitting fishtail skirts (Emirati) I figured that for some modern young Muslims in the UAE it was the same as for some in the UK - culture says to cover, but work it baby! Although, to be honest, I do not have a single Muslim friend in the UK who covers. I'm talking about friends here, not the hundreds I've interviewed or filmed.

Every time I post I try to give examples rather than spout of the top of my head. Believe it or not, this is a subject I've done rather a lot of work on. Both in the UK, North Africa and the UAE. So - I've asked about it. A lot. And had a variety of answers, from a LOT of women. I wonder how many young Emirati women you have spoken to, or old Bedouin women, living out near Liwa? Or modern working Emirati mums? Or the scottish woman who came here in 1956 with her new Emirati husband? (She was fascinating - lived in a barasti hut in Al Ain for several years as all the family's money went on the son's education. And what does he do? Comes home with a foreign bride who can't cook, clean or speak arabic... Oh the stories!)

I worked among them or sought them out, it was part of my job in Abu Dhabi.
I asked about their lives, their feelings, what they think, how they see their
country etc etc etc etc. Dress was just part of my endless questioning.

I gave the examples of Saudi women because they were coming from a country which is one of the more oppressed when it comes to women and clothing. Again, I was interested in their views, their own reason for NOT wearing an abaya in a country where their family may have expected them to.

I haven't spoken to as many Saudi women, which is a shame as I'm sure it would be fascinating to hear what their live are really like in the magic kingdom. When I met my friend Layla, the first thing I asked her was "what's it like in Riyadh?" she just looked at me and said "oppressive, in every way." I think expats have a better time there than the average, non-minted Saudi female.

I'm sure here are tons of women who cover because they want to. But I have
personally met fewer of these than the ones who don't, or who just do it to keep the peace or because its expected of them. The ones I have met, who voluntarily cover, the majority are confused about the whole reason for covering in the first place. And I have been argued and shouted at on more than one occasion when I bring up the passages in the Koran which refer to women and their modesty (two - and those passages say nothing about having to wear a big black sack.)

There's no "one size fits all" opinion on dressing and covering. What I have personally found is that men appear to be the ones who care about it more, they're more prone to outrage and using it as a form of oppression. The twitter
timeline on UAEdress code is full of young men spouting bile. That to me speaks volumes. Covering and hiding women has always been about power, ownership, control, marginalization. Not just in Islam but in many religions. To
deny this, to assume that there are millions of women swathed in black or blue because they like it, or feel closer to god, is naive. It's about much, much more than appearing modest...

Anyway, back to the dress code...

scrubbedexpat141

Karma given.

britexpat76

I would add too, But you had my last lot of Karma for your original post.

Ronnie Biggs

Wow, it must be great fun living in your house.