Almost Canadian

How do you explain 9/11 then?

I don't recall an unjustified occupation at that time.

I believe they wish to kill us for reasons vastly different to those put forward by those that attempt to justify their actions.

Most convicts believe their crimes are justified. Most listening to them would not agree with them.

Some of those we are talking about will wish to kill all non Muslims, or those that have no religion at all. What do you suggest is done about those?

Jingsamichty

Osama bin Laden was unhinged, but even so, his real hatred was for the Saudi rulers who had invited US troops into Saudi Arabia. So, ultimately, it was a 'boisterous awayday' that was at the root of the thinking that ended up with 9/11. He hated the infidels, and he hated those who let the infidels to "his land." Therefore, he went into theirs.

It almost doesn't matter why they want to kill us now... the fact is, they do. They didn't before, but thanks to our own meddling, now they do. Cheers, Bush.

What would I do? Start by disestablishing the C of E, and dismantling all religious influence in politics. Ultimately become an offical secular state. Turn MI5 onto religious leaders and harrass them as much as the law would allow to prevent them from spreading their lies, Christian, Jew, Muslim alike.

The vast majority of this country are peacable agnostics/athiests. Let's have our voice heard the loudest - not the religious nutters.

Shard

The so called War of Terror commenced with 9/11 and was spearheaded by radicals who had Britain within their sights too. Many Palestinians have huge resentment for Britain because if our role in the creation of Israel, despite the popular support Palestine receives now. Globalisation has brought previously separated cultures much closer together too. Granted we should aim to reduce our meddling in the Middle East, but when there are groups with plans to attack us, we must take action against them.

Almost Canadian

France is secular, yet has had issues with those that don't agree with such a stance.

As you have indicated, nutjobs can convince their followers to commit suicide. I don't dispute that there are those that believe the west reacted to 9/11 inappropriately, some of them are members of this forum. I don't believe most if them have killed people in protest.

Almost Canadian

I find what you say about MI5 strange. In a land that permits free speech and upholds the re of law, how do you propose to curb their views?

Shard

Great plan

Jingsamichty

True, curbng religion does sit uneasily with my essentially libertarian views. But I'm prepared to put that unease to one side to clamp down on religion on the grounds that religious leaders themselves are not exactly friends of free speech or free will.

Jingsamichty

I don't imagine that becoming secular would be free of problems, but I'd rather have religionists complaining about rights they no longer have than mis-using those rights to perpetuate their myths and lies.

Not sure I follow the killing point?

airbornesapper

But you are WRONG...it does matter.....and as for blaming Bush, you're having a laugh right....or you really are seriously deluded....You will need to go back a TAD...early 70s at least....and for a key culprit....

In the spirit of keeping it simple and albeit fairly recent in the grand scheme of things....then you should go back and read up on other stalwart of peace who's respect for human rights and tolerance is renowned. Namely the Ayatollah Khomeini who called for "Holy War" back in 1979...to be waged against all of us "infidels", the Great Satan" and fellow even certain Muslim factions and countries that he thought needed to be wiped off the face of the earth - be they young, old or infirm it mattered not.

So I suggest you look to him not Bush for this recent festering shit sandwich "Jihad".

May I recommend a book by John Laffin also, HOLY WAR-Islam Fights...written in 1988. Can be had quite cheaply on Amazon....

The "why" should be explained simply enough for you.

Pulaski

I was reading recently ("American War Machine", if I remember correctly), that the rise in Islamic fundamentalism started in the 60's and into the 70's funded and encouraged by the CIA in the Middle East and Pakistan as a bulwark/ counter strategy to American concerns about the spread of communism. At the time, though retrospectively rather naively, Islam was not considered to be a threat to US/ Israeli/ western interests, though communism was, and CIA were handing out sacks of cash to any Islamist prepared to stand up to any incipient communist movement. The strategy began to unravel with the revolution in Iran in the late 70's, but that didn't stop the CIA delivering $100's of millions in aid to the mujihadeen in Afghanistan in the 80's and the US government delivering $billions to Pakistan that continues to this day despite Pakistan harbouring Bin Liner himself for several years, and the very cosy relationship between the Pakistani government/ army/ military intelligence and numerous Islamic paramilitary organizations.

Shard

Sounds about right. In retrospect, it is bizarre that the Americans were so paranoid about communism, and virtually prepared to engage in nuclear warfare over what is simply an alternate economic system.

iamthecreaturefromuranus

So the Cold War was all about having less choice of beans in the supermarket?

Perhaps the nations and peoples of Eastern Europe would disagree with your synopsis?

Shard

Yes completely about baked beans, surprising they didn't strike actually.

Jingsamichty

That was all no more than usual sabre-rattling, posturing and politicking, with a side dish of run-of-the-mill terrorist shenanigans. Generally though, we kept ourselves to ourselves, and so did they. Despite what the Ayatollah called for, not many people listened.

The KEY difference between then and now is that we now have hundreds of thousands of troops in THEIR lands, killing their borthers and mothers on a daily basis. Can't you see that their reason to hate us has gone beyond the usual extremism? The man on the street now has a very valid reason to hate us and to wish us harm.

Add that to the 90s/00s boom in immigration, and we now have a generation of home-bred people who have been raised on the stories of the imperialist actions of the West. Young men have always been prime fodder for rebellious causes, and there's certainly no lack of people eager to fill their heads with reasons to hate us now. We are just reaping what we have sown.

caretaker

AS makes a good point about the genesis of Anti-American sentiment in Iran but it was not only in the Middle East but SE Asia and Latin America and the Carribean. At some point a lot of the people suffering under US backed tin-pot dictators like Batista and Marcos got up and began saying Yanqi Go Home, and that was proof enough the domino theory was true and good old gun-boat diplomacy was needed. Godless communists were fair game and putting ruthless assholes in power in any under developed resource-rich country and keeping them there with US military assistance kept the world safe from the end of WW2 into the '90s. And in all the Moslem countries the extremists were kept chained to dank walls so the dictators wouldn't have to deal with them. Until now, and they will be represented in the governments of the Arab Spring nations sooner or later.