Exactly. Even for those of us who say believe that force should be applied against so called terror, it clearly is not working.

Hate breeds hate, terror breeds terror, killings breed killing. At least that is what it looks like to me.

(As to Almost Canadian, I don't want to get into that too much. Sure we can say that terrorism is any act that brings or uses "terror" - and I guess in modern times, if there is a political or religious ideology behind it, it seems to be more applicable. I would say personally a terrorist is someone who uses forces of terror - as means or as an effect. But then a serial killer is also a terrorist too, so are people who commit genocide or try to instil fear in groups through violence or threats of violence.

And what we call terrorists in the West are seen as heroes on the other side. We call our soldiers heroes but to those being killed (or see their people being bullied or killed) they are seen as terrorists. The same dynamic is being played out.

In these days, terrorists seems to be used against anyone who is deemed to have a different ideology and an "enemy". So instead of saying s/he is an enemy, the government, press, all of us say s/he is another "terrorist" (the term has gained mainstream use and application since 9/11). I believe it has the important psychological element of self justification. i.e. Maybe I don't want to kill Sameem with 2 children and a grandmother he loves and cares for, and feels angry and suffocated by years of what he sees as unjst killing, but I can sure kill that "terrorist". Dehumanising people - anyone - gives us the capacity to kill it much quickly and easier.

I am saying this goes for all sides, likewise the West is seen as the enemy pit, the head of the snake, the demons of blah blah etc.

I am saying these dynamics are all round, and cyclical and actually all sides of the same, bloody coin.

I personally recognise and see the means and methods of the Jihadist groups and some elements of Islam interpretation are grossly unjust and barbaric. And I think it is certain traits and elements of the human personality that like this story - to be called to violence, and to have a means of justification or perhaps for others it is an outlet for anger and injustice that know no other way. In other words, sure call them terrorist, but don't think that is the whole of the story.

As I said before, Clean Skin is a movie that explores this a bit more. And the Israeli writer Gideon Levy also tries to bring some perspective to the issues I guess.

Not arguing for any side, but I remember reading decades ago that much of the Islam world viewed America as the "head of the snake" as the Jewish presence/dominance/influence in the States is very strong.

IOW they see the US as doing the bidding of Israel, one of their arch enemies. They have always despised the States, and 9/11 was a sad, but for them probably a mammoth, "achievement".

(This obviously does not explore exactly what role the States have played in relation to Middle East politics)

Basically I think the whole situation is horrible, and as can be seen even by a cursory discussion of some of the core matters, it is not easily, or ever, "resolvable". But I guess I think a detailed and more comprehensive understanding of the root causes, feelings, perceptions shared on all sides with some empathy is important. (And yes with the recognition that some people are just barbaric and violent, but there are fundamentalistic elements in ALL countries and parties including the UK, States etc) Basically I think without understanding, it can only get worse.

Thanks, and interesting. History has good lessons to impart, but we are usually a bit late to the party. Ditto for today.

Yes, the Arab Spring was an unsettling time in effect. But in defence of poor America, which can be easily criticised, what would you do? That is always the question - not what would you do in your armchair and with a Mac, but what would you do, if you faced the world elements as they are?

There's no easy answers, but as Jig says, the elements are now much more in our face now. Let's face it, as long as it's on the news or away from us, do we even really care?

I think there was a bit more to it than that. You might want to check some history books.

I have seen Clean Skin. I fail to see why the content of that film is relevant ot this debate.

I accept one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But, it seems to me that, by any sensible definition, the subject matter of this thread was an act of terrorism and those that did so were terrorists, irrespective of whether you believe the words are being used the the governments of the West to dehumanise the perpetrators.

Could you please explain to me when Jews have persecuted Muslims? I don't know if they have, but I have no recollection that they have.

It talks about the turning of British to Muslim fundamenatlist activities. It didn't pertain to the strict definition of terrorist per se, but to the wider topic of what might make a 'normal' Muslim guy decide to maim innocents. I have never seen that noted as off topic before, except you seem to want to control the subject matter here.

You want to discuss what you believe is important and relevant, but I think that there is a lot more that is relevant than your dictionary definitions, Almost Canadian. And these matters should invoke much wider discussion, not just the rigid labelling of people/circumstances.

Can you imagine a justice system that did not reflect, look at the circumstances of actions and events, nor consider the effects of judgements and language it applied?

Yes I can imagine you could, but I am sure you can accept other people may see it differently.

Did I even say that or are you just baiting?

If you are interested by all means, read up on history yourself. Or to the sources linked. Or that Jewish journalist, Gideon Levy, he seems to talk a lot about this.

And as I said before I was only recalling what I had previously read.

If you want to bait, bait elsewhere.

I can understand how young men can turn their back upon the society in which they live. I can see how a film can explain that to those that don't understand how.

I have a question for you: Was the act committed a terrorist act and were those that did it terrorists? If not, why not?

I can accept that some will justify their actions (I am not suggesting you are). I am not arguing whether their actions were "justified".

Your post above suggested that members of "Islam" had an issue with the US supporting Jews. I merely asked what the Jewish had done to member of Islam that was so offensive. I am not baiting anyone but, if you allege something, you must clarify when asked.

Which "arch enemies" of Islam have the US assisted?

Created Israel.

Don't feed him. He's probably got some semantic objection he's dying to trot out.

Not at all. I didn't realise that 75% of the people of Palestinian territories are Muslim. I have read some Google search results and now I know. I, honestly, didn't before, which is why I asked the question above.

Clearly, in light of this, I can see why Muslims would have an issue with those they believe support Israel.

Plenty of Muslim hate now in the UK I hear. Here is a video doing the Face book rounds. Women arrested for carrying a flag. Except she wasn't arrested ! And she had two flags, one had hate slurs on it, oh dear major fail.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=r22np...eature%3Dshare