You misunderstood….Im am talking about the United States we know today, that was a country born after a bunch of colonies declared independence from Britain…states were added over the years but independence was basically the birth of the United States….. .thats the country I am talking about…. Its grown as one country ever since, and is bascailly the same culture, just like the United Kingdom is basically one culture. All I am saying is that you cant form a United States of Europe in such a short space of time….is a different thing altogether.

Im not asking anyone to believe my post, its my opinion, no one really know what will happen in the future, we all make "guesstimations" on our personal beliefs, it same as who other than remainers will believe your posts? as I said at the end of my last post, this is a political issue and we as people all see things differently….there is no right or wrong…that’s politics…which is why you don’t talk about it in the pub! because most political issues are divisive subjects, and people are very passionate about their beliefs..

I used Germany and Greece as an example as their economies are poles apart, which has been formed from the culture of its people, and that is the point I am trying to make what suits one European country won’t suit another.

It works both ways.
Remember some of the untrue claims made by the Remain lobby if vote Leave had won?
The Emergency budget?
The Stock market collapse?
The 4300pounds cost per family?
Both sides stretched the truth to push their case and they may have convinced a few voters one way or the other so continually pushing the argument that lies were only made by the Leave side is untrue itself.
The case I make is that none of this dented the reality that there are areas of the country that have not felt that the largesse of EU membership has made any beneficial impact into their lives and they saw little or no benefit to membership.
It's clear that had Cameron taken the time to pop out from the Westminster bubble for a few minutes and ask people what they actually thought then he might thought better of acting as he did.
Blaming those who voted Leave is a little like shooting the messenger, each seeks to apportion blame elsewhere.

Many non-Tory (eg. SNP, LibDem, half of Labour) don't want to Brexit, so they reject it as a means to continue the fight to Remain. Others may not like the backstop as that is a fundamental flaw with the WA (especially for Leavers).

I believe most of these points were not about the WA itself but about the political declaration that came together with the WA and they both came as 1 deal

https://labour.org.uk/issues/six-rea...l-bad-britain/

Philip Hammond, who replaced George Osborne as chancellor after the referendum, didn't produce a full budget until March 2017. But in his autumn statement, he acknowledged that the UK would borrow an additional £122 billion during the 2016-17 fiscal year, largely as a result of the economic effects of the Brexit referendum vote. He also abandoned all pretence of meeting Osborne's (probably always unachievable) aim of running a surplus by the end of the Parliament - then scheduled for May 2020, before Theresa May, with all-party support, called an early election in May 2017.

According to the Office of National Statistics, there are 19.1 million families living in the UK. That £122 billion, then, amounts to £6387 for each family - so your estimate is actually significantly understating the burden on UK families.

False claims, eh?

£ crashed. Heard of Yellowhammer, the document about all the extra spending plans that when leaked was "base case scenario" and when the redacted version was released had mysteriously become worst case scenario?

As well as what Oakvillian said how can you claim something was untrue when the departure hasn't actually happened yet? It's only untrue if it becomes untrue. That's not the same as something demonstrated as an outright lie from the beginning.

Just how far are you willing to go along with proven lie after proven lie, especially the one exposed this week?

I was going to explain it to you, but the posters below have already said it better than I would have.

As for shooting the messenger, Leavers weren't the messenger. You voted for this shit-show, own it!

For the record.
My wife and I refused to take part in the referendum. We didn't vote either way.
We judged that since we were living in Canada, and had no plans to return, we had no right to impose our will on those who will live with the consequences.
I, personally, believe that the UK will flourish outside the EU in the medium to long term . Short term disruption will be inevitable and of course short-termism is what's driving political thought today.

I couldn't have said it better myself....as a person living in Canada I too didn't take part in the vote, as I thought it was unfair to impose my vote, having no plans to return to the UK....however I still have an interest owning property there, so I could have jusitfied it, but didn't.....

As you say Dave, I think the UK will flourish outside of the restrictions of the EU.....after a couple of years of a bumpy road....following which, other EU countries will want out....and the EU as it stands will collapse....

Just hope the UK gets a deal.

I couldn't have said it better myself....as a person living in Canada I too didn't take part in the vote, as I thought it was unfair to impose my vote, having no plans to return to the UK....however I still have an interest there owning property there, so I could have jusitfied it, but didn't.....

As you say Dave, I think the UK will flourish outside of the restrictions of the EU.....after a couple of years of a bumpy road....following which, other EU countries will want out....and the EU as it stands will collapse....

Just hope the UK gets a deal.

Oh, so that's why you're a leaver. I too have considered zipping over there in November and snapping up a castle or two.

I cannot, I don't think leaving is a good idea but, that's as good a deal as is going to happen so better to take it than dither. I think Corbyn is a real villain in this piece. Labour has been hopeless in failing to take a position on the most important issue of the day; as it is Johnson looks more electable than Corbyn despite being the worst Prime Minister to date.

Do it! there are one or two desirable residences around for a man of your means.

Why are you hoping to get a deal with a EU on the brink of collapsing ?

A trade deal....the EU or what ever it becomes will always need to trade with one and other... thats all the EU ever should have been, as I said keep it simple.