Coronavirus

Old Jan 23rd 2022, 11:38 pm
  #5941  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Fortunately, I'm not one of the 3.7 million "clinically vulnerable" Brits (at least to my knowledge) but it does seem like the Government's hell-bent policy of "normality" will put a number of them unnecessarily at risk. It would be good to see more discussion of this in the media . How many lives we're willing to extinguish for the convenience of not wearing masks or distancing etc. Seems to be a taboo subject. If the number is low (100's) it's a simple trade off if it's high (10,000's) it bears further public debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nd-axes-plan-b
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 1:14 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Fortunately, I'm not one of the 3.7 million "clinically vulnerable" Brits (at least to my knowledge) but it does seem like the Government's hell-bent policy of "normality" will put a number of them unnecessarily at risk. It would be good to see more discussion of this in the media . How many lives we're willing to extinguish for the convenience of not wearing masks or distancing etc. Seems to be a taboo subject. If the number is low (100's) it's a simple trade off if it's high (10,000's) it bears further public debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nd-axes-plan-b
Is there any reason why those at risk can't take steps to avoid the risk? Work from home, don't go out, have groceries delivered, continue to wear masks if they wish to?
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 1:30 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Is there any reason why those at risk can't take steps to avoid the risk? Work from home, don't go out, have groceries delivered, continue to wear masks if they wish to?
In a multi-person household - probably the majority of households in the country - there may be someone at risk.
(I seem to recall that taking into account age and at risk for health reasons, this could be as high as half the households in the country)

How do they avoid the risk where someone in the same house is in situations - school, college, Uni, workplace, clubs where there may be little risk to themselves but there would be a risk to others in the same household?
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 3:15 am
  #5944  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Is there any reason why those at risk can't take steps to avoid the risk? Work from home, don't go out, have groceries delivered, continue to wear masks if they wish to?
That's the kind of question and debate that's needed. Where does the risk lie, what level of protections and caution is necessary. There is very little insight and disclosure into the analysis the goverment does on this. Plenty of statistical data and forecasts of the epidemic itself, not much marrying that back to the economic consequences and the fatality outcomes.

The precautions you suggest (WFH, isolation, groceries, masks) have an impact at population level, and a (much) lesser impact at individuals level. A proper debate would clarify whether this is sufficient or not.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 3:34 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
Cool. Its also irrelevant.
To clarify, it's irrelevant because the paper deals with measuring test accuracy and the test is for Covid-19 as opposed to vaccination status. It's first time I am being told that a 5-months old paper is too old, but guess there is the first time for everything. And while peer reviewed and published papers can be challenged by people who understand the subject, this isn't the right forum. Briefly, it's a better source of information on test accuracy than "someone I know told me an anecdote".
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 4:03 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

It is still true that the majority of deaths are in the elderly, I believe the average age of death from Covid is 82.3 years of age.

There is definately a big risk to elderly people living in multi generational households as soon as the relief from masks, passes and social distancing are put inplace.

I no longer understand the agenda or the goals from the government's point of view, they are not telling.

There will be more natural immunity coming and more deaths in elderly people with the upcoming changes, is my guess.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 4:08 am
  #5947  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
To clarify, it's irrelevant because the paper deals with measuring test accuracy and the test is for Covid-19 as opposed to vaccination status. It's first time I am being told that a 5-months old paper is too old, but guess there is the first time for everything. And while peer reviewed and published papers can be challenged by people who understand the subject, this isn't the right forum. Briefly, it's a better source of information on test accuracy than "someone I know told me an anecdote".
The convenient rule of thumb I heard on the rapid tests is take notice of a postive (i.e. infection) but don't pay too much attention to a negative. False negatives being far more prevalent that false positives.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 4:50 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Nand
It is still true that the majority of deaths are in the elderly, I believe the average age of death from Covid is 82.3 years of age.

There is definately a big risk to elderly people living in multi generational households as soon as the relief from masks, passes and social distancing are put inplace.
Who knows what to believe with increasing numbers of younger people suffering? Just looking at something from the mayo clinic recently.
In the U.S., about 81% of deaths from the disease have been in people age 65 and older.
I suppose it's possible that's not many at 65 and loads of 90 years olds, but it could still be a significant number especially if you're one of them.
For 'mixed-risk' households, here's something from a couple of previous posts of mine.
For a previous post I did some googling and found that in North America 25% of Seniors share a household with non seniors and something like one in five households include someone with a disability. Of course not all disabilities mean 'at risk' but then there's a bunch of medical conditions that do mean 'at risk' but don't count as a disability.

I wasn't able to find figures for households with Seniors in the UK but there are lots of references to many seniors living alone. So perhaps there are fewer elderly people sharing than the USA's 25%.
There's no reason for wide variations in the other at risk groups. Over 5m people currently being treated for Asthma in the UK. 4m with Diabetes. Over 1m with COPD. High blood pressure affects 1 in 4 adults. 1 in 5 have disabilities.

If they are all the same people and/or they all live alone then there aren't that many mixed risk households. A more reasonable view would be that some have this condition while others have that one and that they do not all live alone. Add them all up and you get a not insignificant number living with "no risk" types..

Anecdotally everyone of my friends and family I remain in touch with in the UK is also in a mixed risk household. Of course most friends and family are at the upper age range so you'd expect me to know older people, but they still have young healthier people with them.

When you add in the non seniors who have as yet undiagnosed conditions (they call them silent killers for a reason) that would put them at risk you might have at least half households containing someone at risk.
Which ever way you look at it there are a lot of households with at risk folk sharing with much less risk.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 5:04 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
In a multi-person household - probably the majority of households in the country - there may be someone at risk.
(I seem to recall that taking into account age and at risk for health reasons, this could be as high as half the households in the country)

How do they avoid the risk where someone in the same house is in situations - school, college, Uni, workplace, clubs where there may be little risk to themselves but there would be a risk to others in the same household?
That shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of most households. The at risk person remains isolated from the others in the household or, where that is unavoidable, takes the appropriate measures (not spending too long in the vicinity of others, sanitizing the crap out of everything they come into contact with). You know, the things the authorities have been suggesting everyone does for the past couple of years.

You may recall the ridicule I faced on here when I asked the question as to whether everyone intended to wear masks when at home when masks were first being discussed. I couldn't understand why, if transmission was to be avoided at all costs, members of the same household should not continue to wear them when at home. I know that, if I was so vulnerable that catching it could kill me, I would take all necessary steps to avoid catching it, even if that made my life uncomfortable/inconvenient.

If the evidence is to be believed, this isn't going away and the vulnerable are going to remain vulnerable for the remainder of their lives, unless a more effective vaccine can be discovered.

My daughters have not been at uni since September 2020. I believe that most of society would much prefer that the vulnerable isolate, rather than the whole of society having to, as many eminent epidemiologists have been suggesting all along.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 5:48 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Nand
It is still true that the majority of deaths are in the elderly, I believe the average age of death from Covid is 82.3 years of age.

There is definately a big risk to elderly people living in multi generational households as soon as the relief from masks, passes and social distancing are put inplace.

I no longer understand the agenda or the goals from the government's point of view, they are not telling.

There will be more natural immunity coming and more deaths in elderly people with the upcoming changes, is my guess.
This would suggest that the people in charge are going to have to start changing their positions regarding the unvaxxed and I understand that you have to survive catching it:

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Old Jan 24th 2022, 10:08 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

^ that’s the nurse who promoted Ivermectin and other nonsense for particularly gullible. Gets his clicks though so all is good.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 10:32 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
That shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of most households. The at risk person remains isolated from the others in the household or, where that is unavoidable, takes the appropriate measures (not spending too long in the vicinity of others, sanitizing the crap out of everything they come into contact with). You know, the things the authorities have been suggesting everyone does for the past couple of years. If the evidence is to be believed, this isn't going away and the vulnerable are going to remain vulnerable for the remainder of their lives, unless a more effective vaccine can be discovered.
Yes, all fair enough. But it only goes so far as well as placing all the responsibility on the vulnerable.
I believe that most of society would much prefer that the vulnerable isolate, rather than the whole of society having to...
Or instead of it being one or the other, we start talking about compromises.
Just as an example England is scaling everything back including doing away with requirements to wear masks. Would it be such a hardship to continue with mask wearing on public transport and certain work situations for example. Mask wearing at the cinema no longer needed and it appears no capacity limit. Perhaps either require masks or limit capacity in some way.

Pubs. Do they have to open all day, every day? There must be hundreds of ways that they and other businesses could operate - reduced opening hours, every other day, reduced capacity and so on.

Much like how cities restrict traffic on bad air quality days by limiting who can drive there on those days.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 11:38 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes, all fair enough. But it only goes so far as well as placing all the responsibility on the vulnerable.

Or instead of it being one or the other, we start talking about compromises.
Just as an example England is scaling everything back including doing away with requirements to wear masks. Would it be such a hardship to continue with mask wearing on public transport and certain work situations for example. Mask wearing at the cinema no longer needed and it appears no capacity limit. Perhaps either require masks or limit capacity in some way.

Pubs. Do they have to open all day, every day? There must be hundreds of ways that they and other businesses could operate - reduced opening hours, every other day, reduced capacity and so on.

Much like how cities restrict traffic on bad air quality days by limiting who can drive there on those days.
I think that there should be some sensible approach on masks for example i see no issue with requiring masks in medical settings or whilst attending close up personal services and in care home settings to some degree but it seems plain nonsense to be required to wear one to walk from restaurant door to table or when ordering a take out coffee and sandwich whilst stood behind a large plexi screen. Similarly walking around a large half empty mall is certainly a less risky situation to sitting in a doctors waiting room shoulder to shoulder. Also if the vulnerable or those who are concerned are given good advice on protecting themselves it would certainly help. Maybe some better more direct advertising campaign for those that are at risk advising them of what they can do to protect themselves and of course this may help those of us that aren't "at risk" but are sometimes in contact with those that are. Way back the UK introduced the "shielding" advice for all elderly and those at risk basically telling them to see no one and go nowhere, this was clearly not sustainable in the long term. Giving those people sensible advice on the best mask to wear, the places to avoid, the things that are relatively safe.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 12:18 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
I think that there should be some sensible approach on masks for example i see no issue with requiring masks in medical settings or whilst attending close up personal services and in care home settings to some degree but it seems plain nonsense to be required to wear one to walk from restaurant door to table or when ordering a take out coffee and sandwich whilst stood behind a large plexi screen. ...
I'm in broad agreement although I would say that in a restaurant, keeping your mask on until food or drink (whatever comes first) arrives at least keeps it in mind. A very clear when you must wear and when you needn't would concentrate the mind not just while dining. Allow removal for the walk to the table and you can bet you'll have people removing them when they're all backed up "waiting to be seated" in that crowded area by the door.

As for the take-out coffee, your fellow customers are the same side of the screen as you are.
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Old Jan 24th 2022, 12:58 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
This would suggest that the people in charge are going to have to start changing their positions regarding the unvaxxed and I understand that you have to survive catching it:
<snip video>
I didn't get very far with this video. I know a lot of people like the guy - but he's just another Joe Bloggs - not a scientist, not a medical doctor, but an ex nurse and teacher so knows how to present / say things people will listen to (and that is how he earns his money these days having retired from nursing/teaching).

I get that you get some natural immunity - but only for a specific strain, and as that mutates then you have no immunity for the new strain.

There are numerous reports of people having COVID twice - and at least one report of a patient who passed having two strains simultaneously.
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