Coronavirus

Old Jan 13th 2022, 7:04 pm
  #5881  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Here we go again. The figures in Alberta show that more vaccinated than unvaccinated have tested positive and are in hospital. The reference I made to skewing was to show that I acknowledge that those, like you, that wish to avoid this fact, will likely make reference to the % of vaccinated versus the % of unvaccinated. I don't dispute that. You can do whatever you want to with the facts to support whatever argument you wish to make, but the facts are the facts. On pure numbers, the vaccinated are placing more of a burden upon the health system than the unvaccinated.



So what? If my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle. The numbers clearly show that, in jurisdictions referred to above, there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated in hospital and, if my understanding is correct, it is those in hospital that are causing the burden upon healthcare.
The "pure numbers" argument is irrelevant and refusing to look past unanalyzed data leads to uninformed opinions. For example, say the Alberta vaccination proportion was reversed, and the vast bulk of Albertans were unvaccinated, who do you think would be placing the burden on AHS? Hint: it would be the bulk of the population (not only because they are unvaccinated, but BECAUSE they are the bulk of the population). By using relative measures (percentages) we can better understand where the problem lies.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 12:18 am
  #5882  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Great analogy
He is repeating post #5872.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 1:16 am
  #5883  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
He is repeating post #5872.
I believe I mentioned it first. Post 5861.
And then again 5866.

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Old Jan 14th 2022, 1:31 am
  #5884  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
And on pure numbers sober drivers cause more car accidents than drunk drivers. Would you go round telling people that sober drivers place more of a burden on the emergency services than drunk ones?
Well, if the accidents involving sober drivers caused more people to require the emergency services than those involving drunk drivers, yes, as it would be factually correct, if I was so inclined to care about such matters. That doesn't mean that I believe that driving while drunk is a good thing, just as I believe that I am better off being vaccinated.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 1:38 am
  #5885  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
The "pure numbers" argument is irrelevant and refusing to look past unanalyzed data leads to uninformed opinions. For example, say the Alberta vaccination proportion was reversed, and the vast bulk of Albertans were unvaccinated, who do you think would be placing the burden on AHS? Hint: it would be the bulk of the population (not only because they are unvaccinated, but BECAUSE they are the bulk of the population). By using relative measures (percentages) we can better understand where the problem lies.
It is not irrelevant. Had any jurisdiction wished to argue for such a tax earlier in the pandemic, the numbers would have supported their argument that the unvaccinated are the ones placing a burden upon the health system. Unfortunately for their argument, that is not the case now so their argument fails, IMVHO.

In any case, our opinion really doesn't matter and any law that Quebec wishes to impose will have to be constitutional failing which it will, likely, be subject to legal challenge. I accept that, as Quebec tends to do, it will likely use the notwithstanding clause to bolster its position. However, for the reasons stated above, I can't see the justification for lumping all members of one group together. I accept that you may have a different view
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 1:43 am
  #5886  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Well, if the accidents involving sober drivers caused more people to require the emergency services than those involving drunk drivers, yes, as it would be factually correct, if I was so inclined to care about such matters. That doesn't mean that I believe that driving while drunk is a good thing, just as I believe that I am better off being vaccinated.
Nice lawyer type answer.
So you can see that something that's factually correct but in overall context suggests a different picture- that driving drunk is not actually a good idea.

So when you keep banging on about numbers when there's an identical context in the drunk driving analogy, all you're doing is blaming the wrong group.

And as I said to you before, some people will seize upon that snippet of information (just as initially they seized on that bloke in the videos you posted) and start spreading 'the real truth' that getting vaccinated doesn't protect you - in fact it means you're more of a burden on the health services - and then the "just a hoax" crowd thrives even more.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 2:07 am
  #5887  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Nice lawyer type answer.

So you can see that something that's factually correct but in overall context suggests a different picture- that driving drunk is not actually a good idea.

So when you keep banging on about numbers when there's an identical context in the drunk driving analogy, all you're doing is blaming the wrong group.

And as I said to you before, some people will seize upon that snippet of information (just as initially they seized on that bloke in the videos you posted) and start spreading 'the real truth' that getting vaccinated doesn't protect you - in fact it means you're more of a burden on the health services - and then the "just a hoax" crowd thrives even more.
If you say so. Put simply, the government's argument, at this time, is not factually correct. You can argue that, historically, it was and then the question becomes: Why didn't they do then, that which they intend to do now?

I accept that some wish to argue that it is morally correct

If you believe your drunk driving analogy works; I am pleased for you. However, that doesn't really deal with the arguments above, nor have I ever argued that driving drunk is a good thing.

Successful lawyers have the ability to understand the other side's argument, to make appropriate concessions and to adjust their arguments appropriately. The less successful ones refuse to accept that their position may be incorrect, refuse to accept that the other side's argument has merit and fail to adjust their arguments.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 3:35 am
  #5888  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
If you believe your drunk driving analogy works; I am pleased for you. However, that doesn't really deal with the arguments above, nor have I ever argued that driving drunk is a good thing.
But you are arguing that vaccinated people are the burden in exactly the same way that sober drivers would be the burden until you look at other details.

Successful lawyers have the ability to understand the other side's argument, to make appropriate concessions and to adjust their arguments appropriately. The less successful ones refuse to accept that their position may be incorrect, refuse to accept that the other side's argument has merit and fail to adjust their arguments.
In this case there are those of us who do understand your argument. We do understand those particular examples of yours. Just as you understand the context too, because you know, you actually made the point yourself.

Nevertheless you continue to over simplify it by reference to the vaccinated as being the burden.

It's called misinformation. You might have heard of it.

‘Menace to public health’: An open letter from doctors expresses concern about Covid misinformation.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 3:42 am
  #5889  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
It is not irrelevant. Had any jurisdiction wished to argue for such a tax earlier in the pandemic, the numbers would have supported their argument that the unvaccinated are the ones placing a burden upon the health system. Unfortunately for their argument, that is not the case now so their argument fails, IMVHO.

In any case, our opinion really doesn't matter and any law that Quebec wishes to impose will have to be constitutional failing which it will, likely, be subject to legal challenge. I accept that, as Quebec tends to do, it will likely use the notwithstanding clause to bolster its position. However, for the reasons stated above, I can't see the justification for lumping all members of one group together. I accept that you may have a different view
I wasn't specifically referring to the Quebec case, I was explaining why it's fallacious to contend that the vaccinated are a relative burden on the healthcare system. If you discard the word 'relative' you would have a point (on numbers alone) but not a particularly useful one. Others have tried to convey this scenario through the drink driving analogy.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 3:50 am
  #5890  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

There is a lack of understanding of some very basic mathematical concepts, such as probability. Like talking different languages.

It's a generic problem with the British schools system: they streamline too early and often produce mathematicians who cannot read or humanitarians who cannot count.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 5:10 am
  #5891  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
There is a lack of understanding of some very basic mathematical concepts, such as probability. Like talking different languages.

It's a generic problem with the British schools system: they streamline too early and often produce mathematicians who cannot read or humanitarians who cannot count.
I have access to a great number of actuaries, originally trained in various countries. They know about probability but not humanity, that's a running joke. Like lawyers they have to marry each other because no one else will have them. So, nothing to do with the British school system. They are, of course, all vaccinated and scathing, even compared with me, about the un-vaxxed.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 11:23 am
  #5892  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Someone do the maths please.
Ontario hospitalizations:
686 unvaccinated
167 partially
2035 fully

ICU
168 unvaccinated
19 partially
185 Fully

population
8.7% unvaxed
91.3 % partially
86 % are fully vaccinated

those unvaxed patients comprise more than 8.7% I'm sure. But one of you will enjoy doing the sums

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Old Jan 14th 2022, 3:50 pm
  #5893  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
There is a lack of understanding of some very basic mathematical concepts, such as probability. Like talking different languages.

It's a generic problem with the British schools system: they streamline too early and often produce mathematicians who cannot read or humanitarians who cannot count.
I wouldn't necessarily single out the British school system, but in general there is a high level of statistical illiteracy which confounds discussing simple probabilities. Nowhere has this been clearer than in responses to pandemic data.






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Old Jan 16th 2022, 6:59 pm
  #5894  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Omicron: not out of the woods yet.

​​​​​​https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...crons-severity
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Old Jan 17th 2022, 3:23 am
  #5895  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Omicron: not out of the woods yet.

​​​​​​https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...crons-severity
Indeed. Two elite level footballers at the peak of fitness have heart lesions following brief bouts of covid.
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