Coronavirus

Old Dec 14th 2021, 12:32 am
  #5611  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by JamesM
Where is this data?

Most people I know who got covid pre-vaccine still went and got the vaccine after. Especially as two of them went to hospital.
this Israeli study says that natural immunity is superior to the 2 shot vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 12:49 am
  #5612  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Danny B
this Israeli study says that natural immunity is superior to the 2 shot vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.
This may well be true, and there may be multiple studies that confirm it. The problem with such findings is that some members of the public will assume that a natural immune response is sufficient/superior to fight an infection, when in fact the infection will kill many more of those unvaccinated than vaccinated.



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Old Dec 14th 2021, 1:03 am
  #5613  
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Default Re: "Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't know that anyone considers the unvaccinated a scapegoat. They're not helping for reasons noted above but, even if everyone was vaccinated, the coronavirus would continue.
Read some of your posts recently? You frequently blame everything on the 'unvaxxed' - (not including those that are unvaccinated for genuine reasons... remember? - this for just one.. Coronavirus )


(**Unvaxxed = anti vax - according to your posts, theoretically, but you appear to mean anyone unvaccinated.. )

Last edited by Siouxie; Dec 14th 2021 at 1:35 am.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 1:25 am
  #5614  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Good question.

Japan: population 126 million (approx double Britain) deaths 18,737
Britain: population 68 million deaths 146,477

If Britain had the same population as Japan, Britain's deaths would be 271,000 (approx) compared to Japan's deaths of 19,000 (approx). Something our Asian friends are doing is saving hundreds of thousands of lives. If you're wondering why should we? this is good place to focus, because it will save many many lives.
Well that would be a good point IF hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved by simply wearing a mask, but i don't buy it. Are we saying that Japan is as good as it is because of masks alone? There is i'm sure many other factors involved. Their culture is totally different to that of the UK for example and therefore impossible to compare. In most instances around the world when masks have been introduced or reintroduced we don't see the curve flattening much and most always we see more restrictions added to compliment the masks.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 1:31 am
  #5615  
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Default Re: "Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Siouxie
Read some of your posts recently? You frequently blame everything on the 'unvaxxed' - (not including those that are unvaccinated for genuine reasons... remember? - this for just one.. Coronavirus )
My position is:

- the unvaxxed, for any reason, should not go out in public as they are a hazard to themselves and to others
- the unvaxxed place an unfair burden on society by choosing to put themselves at risk and then dying in hospital in beds that could be used by people who are in need through no fault of their own

I do not scapegoat the unvaxxed. That is, I do not hold them to be solely responsible for the pandemic.

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Old Dec 14th 2021, 3:09 am
  #5616  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Good question.

Japan: population 126 million (approx double Britain) deaths 18,737
Britain: population 68 million deaths 146,477

If Britain had the same population as Japan, Britain's deaths would be 271,000 (approx) compared to Japan's deaths of 19,000 (approx). Something our Asian friends are doing is saving hundreds of thousands of lives. If you're wondering why should we? this is good place to focus, because it will save many many lives.
Although obesity in the UK is 27% and in Japan it is only 4%.

The average Jap is much fitter.

There is a high correlation between Covid and obesity.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 7:35 am
  #5617  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
And some would describe Nicola Sturgeon as the opposite of Boris but has there been a noticeably much smaller number of hospitalizations, deaths and overall cases in Scotland because of the never ending mask mandate? Boris promised (rightly or wrongly) they would go back to some normality and set a date and a target which they did in summer. I don't remember mass hospitalizations or huge death numbers because of this. Yes there were mass cases coming out of some events but it still didn't really lead to much and vaccinations were working. Some would have us wearing masks forever because, well just in case and our Asian friends really don't mind it so why should we. Why should you be horrified at the lack of mask wearing recently in London, it was not mandated so therefore personal choice and clearly despite what we are led to believe the majority do not want to wear them.
The trouble is that Boris Johnson places his personal popularity as an additional factor in his decision making. If he hadn't relaxed mask-wearing, and promised that relaxations would be irrevocable, then he wouldn't now be facing hostility at the potential reintroduction of distancing measures. He's a typical profit-taker, declaring profits before the contract is actually delivered. So while there may or may not be significant differences in the cases, hospitalisations and deaths between Scotland and England (I don't know), there is a world of difference in the attitude towards tackling the virus. Sturgeon has been consistent. Johnson has flipped and flapped about like a prize salmon. It's not helpful, and the cynic in me wonders if his latest Omicron announcements are just to get rid of the Downing Street party headlines.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 7:56 am
  #5618  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
Well that would be a good point IF hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved by simply wearing a mask, but i don't buy it. Are we saying that Japan is as good as it is because of masks alone? There is i'm sure many other factors involved. Their culture is totally different to that of the UK for example and therefore impossible to compare. In most instances around the world when masks have been introduced or reintroduced we don't see the curve flattening much and most always we see more restrictions added to compliment the masks.
It's not the only reason, but there's such a wide gap that it has to be part of the reason. And of course it's not just Japan, most Korea, Thailand, Taiwan and others have surpressed infection and therefore deaths. Nobody likes wearing a mask or social distancing, but are they that onerous if lives are saved?



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Old Dec 14th 2021, 7:57 am
  #5619  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
The trouble is that Boris Johnson places his personal popularity as an additional factor in his decision making. If he hadn't relaxed mask-wearing, and promised that relaxations would be irrevocable, then he wouldn't now be facing hostility at the potential reintroduction of distancing measures. He's a typical profit-taker, declaring profits before the contract is actually delivered. So while there may or may not be significant differences in the cases, hospitalisations and deaths between Scotland and England (I don't know), there is a world of difference in the attitude towards tackling the virus. Sturgeon has been consistent. Johnson has flipped and flapped about like a prize salmon. It's not helpful, and the cynic in me wonders if his latest Omicron announcements are just to get rid of the Downing Street party headlines.
Well the timing of that was spot on... professional idiot Dominic Raab gets the numbers wrong twice as he admits there are just TEN people in hospital in the UK with Omicron.

The vaccination rollout is the key thing Johnson thinks he won political capital out of this year... so in the middle of sleaze&corruption&cheese&wine headlines, why not have another crack at a big vaccination boris-boost to get the folks back on side and deflect all the negative press?
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 8:02 am
  #5620  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by JamesM
Although obesity in the UK is 27% and in Japan it is only 4%.

The average Jap is much fitter.

There is a high correlation between Covid and obesity.
That would account for some of the fourteen fold difference.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 8:21 am
  #5621  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

I think the obesity correlation is very, very significant. Look at the US deaths for further corroboration of that.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 9:13 am
  #5622  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
I think the obesity correlation is very, very significant. Look at the US deaths for further corroboration of that.
It's certainly significant and we'll established. However, there's a level of denial going on when Western nations attribute lower mortality in Asia to lack of obesity, different culture or different DNA. There is a massive disparity in mortality, and part of that is due to less rigorous mask wearing. That's not to say masks are infallible, the type most of us wear (and the way we wear them) have limited efficacy. But when 99% of the population wear masks that's a significant barrier to transmission compared to say 90% wearing.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 11:30 am
  #5623  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

I thought Asians have been wearing masks for a long time because of SMOG. So prolly they will continue to wear them, uncomfortable or not.
Soon westerners will wear them for SMOG too.
SMOG causes so many bronchial and lung diseases, and its just painful to breath in all that dirty air.
Well, of course that is my just my own experience when I have to walk in smoggy areas, not scientifically verified.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 1:14 pm
  #5624  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
It depends the evolution of the virus. If it starts to become relatively benign then the a combination of gained immunity and vaccine immunity may lead to a herd immunity. Conversely, if a more virulent strain emerges, then the naysayers will impair herd immunity and be deserving scapegoats.
I agree and I don't believe I have stated otherwise.
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Old Dec 14th 2021, 1:20 pm
  #5625  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by JamesM
Where is this data?
A google search will turn them up easily. Alternatively, have a look at Dr. John Campbell's videos on YouTube. He usually presents both sides of the debate and provides links to all of the sources he refers to.

Originally Posted by JamesM
Most people I know who got covid pre-vaccine still went and got the vaccine after. Especially as two of them went to hospital.
I have never suggested that they did anything wrong.
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