Coronavirus

Old Dec 13th 2021, 1:55 am
  #5596  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
It's too much trouble to type "voluntarily unvaccinated" every time, though I did so above. If I use the term "unvaxxed", or some variant thereof, you may assume it to mean "unvaccinated by choice". Similarly, "free" healthcare should be taken to mean "free at the point of service" and not "gifted from God".
OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 1:58 am
  #5597  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
That was only ever true for some people and completely ignored those who had a bout of Covid but would still suffer from returning bouts or long covid.
However, for Omicron:
Until they catch Omicron too. Having recovered from their earlier bout, I'd suggest that they would recover from Omicron too, but I accept you won't accept that. Long covid affects them, it doesn't affect others.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 4:10 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
Please don't refer to "UK" measures. Health is a devolved matter and Boris Johnson is only talking about measures in England.
Good point.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Until they catch Omicron too. Having recovered from their earlier bout, I'd suggest that they would recover from Omicron too, but I accept you won't accept that. Long covid affects them, it doesn't affect others.
It's not that I won't accept that, I'm just pointing out what you said last time - about recovery from earlier strains offering better protection than the vaccine was false information and incomplete according to experts and research and now you are making a similar claim about the latest version.

In many ways you are worse than the anti-vax conspiracy nutters because you sew seeds of doubt under your cloak of respectability.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 4:26 am
  #5599  
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Default "Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.
Yes, the need to find a scapegoat is laughable, the only one to blame is SarsCov2.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 5:05 am
  #5600  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Omicron infecting 200,000 in UK every day and so far only one death. Hopefully a storm in a tea cup.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 6:00 am
  #5601  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Good point.


It's not that I won't accept that, I'm just pointing out what you said last time - about recovery from earlier strains offering better protection than the vaccine was false information and incomplete according to experts and research
Except it isn't. There is lots of peer reviewed papers that show that the protection of those that have recovered lasts longer than those with the vaccines alone.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
and now you are making a similar claim about the latest version.
The latest version was not mentioned by me until my last post. Do you have any evidence that a survivor of a non Omicron version of C-19 has suffered ill effects from the Omicron version?

Originally Posted by BristolUK
n many ways you are worse than the anti-vax conspiracy nutters because you sew seeds of doubt under your cloak of respectability.
Worse in what way? I haven't attempted to sow any seeds. I have simply reported the facts that have been stated in peer review journals that have been published all over the world. I am happy with the decisions that I have made. I am happy for others to make theirs. I simply object to people accusing a huge swathe of people by using language and groups that are way too wide.

What cloak of respectability?

I seek to make an argument without name calling and by asking questions, rather than misrepresenting what others have clearly stated. I appreciate that, online, that is quite rare. You don't seem to have learned that I always take the contrary position when making such comments. That may not necessarily reflect my position, I am simply debating issues.

Last edited by Almost Canadian; Dec 13th 2021 at 6:05 am.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 7:02 am
  #5602  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Okay, here we go again.
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Except it isn't. There is lots of peer reviewed papers that show that the protection of those that have recovered lasts longer than those with the vaccines alone.
Perhaps you plain forgot or maybe you're just being disingenuous again but a couple of days ago you said:
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
What about those that have had C19 and recovered and already have protection that is as good as those with the vaccination and which has been shown to last longer (yes, I know that those that have recovered and have been vaxxed are better protected than either of the other groups)?
That part in parenthesis was because you remembered the previous discussion about natural immunity and a vax being better than just one, but where it was also shown that - as I said just above - only some may have good immunity (if surviving a potential killer virus) but may still have problems with long covid and their natural immunity is still going to wane, more quickly for some than others.
The latest version was not mentioned by me until my last post. Do you have any evidence that a survivor of a non Omicron version of C-19 has suffered ill effects from the Omicron version?
No I don't since it hasn't existed long enough for that to be known. Obviously that also means you have no evidence to back your suggestion that they would recover from Omicron too. I would, however, think it reasonable that what is known to be true of the earlier variants is likely to be true of the latest one.
Worse in what way? I haven't attempted to sow any seeds. I have simply reported the facts that have been stated in peer review journals that have been published all over the world.
What you've actually been doing is giving little snippets of what's been found and reported. Like your original claim that natural immunity was better than the vax, as if it were a universal truth rather than the dangerously incomplete information it was.

Just to refresh a memory, some have died so we never get to know what antibodies they may have gotten to 'protect' themselves and in a third of those recovered antibodies dropped to undetectable levels. It's just not good advice to make the claims you have made without mentioning the other inconveniences.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 7:20 am
  #5603  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.
It depends the evolution of the virus. If it starts to become relatively benign then the a combination of gained immunity and vaccine immunity may lead to a herd immunity. Conversely, if a more virulent strain emerges, then the naysayers will impair herd immunity and be deserving scapegoats.



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Old Dec 13th 2021, 7:24 am
  #5604  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Danny B
Omicron infecting 200,000 in UK every day and so far only one death. Hopefully a storm in a tea cup.
It's been with us a week. Boris sounded a bit rattled yesterday. Precaution seems a sensible strategy given the exponential growth rate.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 11:06 am
  #5605  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
Please don't refer to "UK" measures. Health is a devolved matter and Boris Johnson is only talking about measures in England. In fact, he is simply reintroducing measures in England which are already in place everywhere else in the UK. Measures which he voluntarily relaxed in order to appease the "civil liberties" nutjobs in his party. (As an aside, the same "civil liberties" nutjobs who just voted to criminalise protests...)

I'm in Scotland where the requirement to wear masks in indoor environments (except when sitting at your desk or a pub/restaurant table) has never been relaxed. But I was in London recently and was horrified at the almost-universal lack of mask wearing in shops, pubs and on the Tube.
And some would describe Nicola Sturgeon as the opposite of Boris but has there been a noticeably much smaller number of hospitalizations, deaths and overall cases in Scotland because of the never ending mask mandate? Boris promised (rightly or wrongly) they would go back to some normality and set a date and a target which they did in summer. I don't remember mass hospitalizations or huge death numbers because of this. Yes there were mass cases coming out of some events but it still didn't really lead to much and vaccinations were working. Some would have us wearing masks forever because, well just in case and our Asian friends really don't mind it so why should we. Why should you be horrified at the lack of mask wearing recently in London, it was not mandated so therefore personal choice and clearly despite what we are led to believe the majority do not want to wear them.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 11:42 am
  #5606  
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Default Re: "Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Nand
Yes, the need to find a scapegoat is laughable, the only one to blame is SarsCov2.
I don't know that anyone considers the unvaccinated a scapegoat. They're not helping for reasons noted above but, even if everyone was vaccinated, the coronavirus would continue.

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Old Dec 13th 2021, 11:45 am
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Default Re: "Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't know that anyone considers the unvaccinated a scapegoat. They're not helping for reasons noted above but, even if everyone was vaccinated, the coronavirus would continue.
True
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 11:54 am
  #5608  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
OK

There is heaps of data that show that those that have recovered from C-19 are providing "society" with just as much protection and those with 2 vaccines. By your definition, they would still be "unvaccinated by choice".

BTW, I really don't care about the views of those on this forum. The problem I have is when politicians seek to blame the unvaccinated for the current situation. Time will show that C-19 is here to stay and the world needs to find a more realistic scapegoat than the unvaccinated.
Where is this data?

Most people I know who got covid pre-vaccine still went and got the vaccine after. Especially as two of them went to hospital.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 11:56 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
It's been with us a week. Boris sounded a bit rattled yesterday. Precaution seems a sensible strategy given the exponential growth rate.
Boris is rattled by a lot of things at the moment.

He's probably worried about what the plan is for this years Christmas Party.
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Old Dec 13th 2021, 12:25 pm
  #5610  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
And some would describe Nicola Sturgeon as the opposite of Boris but has there been a noticeably much smaller number of hospitalizations, deaths and overall cases in Scotland because of the never ending mask mandate? Boris promised (rightly or wrongly) they would go back to some normality and set a date and a target which they did in summer. I don't remember mass hospitalizations or huge death numbers because of this. Yes there were mass cases coming out of some events but it still didn't really lead to much and vaccinations were working. Some would have us wearing masks forever because, well just in case and our Asian friends really don't mind it so why should we. Why should you be horrified at the lack of mask wearing recently in London, it was not mandated so therefore personal choice and clearly despite what we are led to believe the majority do not want to wear them.
Good question.

Japan: population 126 million (approx double Britain) deaths 18,737
Britain: population 68 million deaths 146,477

If Britain had the same population as Japan, Britain's deaths would be 271,000 (approx) compared to Japan's deaths of 19,000 (approx). Something our Asian friends are doing is saving hundreds of thousands of lives. If you're wondering why should we? this is good place to focus, because it will save many many lives.


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