Novocastrian

I reloaded my calculator. Yes, your first post was off (but so was mine), Nonetheless, you're talking bulls**t.

Germany 19.4 billion euros per year
France 18 billion
Italy 14.3 billion
UK 11 billion
Spain 10 billion

What's your point?

orly

Not as much as you it seems.

Tony_Tiger

The issue is controlled immigration and having a balanced labour market not immigration itself. The analogy with technology is not a great one. Technology also creates jobs as well as putting people out. Immigration just puts people out.

The idea of a skills shortage is debatable. There is a false conception of foreign being better, when its not. My observation being back for a year was that employers are not really recruiting british workers. I noticed employers asking for qualifications & experience that would be nearly impossible to have in one setting. To obtain the experience even harder as well the labour market is flooded. Catch 22.

I dont see how the UK benefits from me being on the dole and having someone from Europe working instead. If there was a real skill and labour market shortage I would understand. But there is not.

But on the flipside, whilst I was unemployed. I had sod all else to do.. I dated so many hot european women in that year. So I guess free movement of people does have its pros.

Shard

Good post.

Alan2005

No it doesn't; is there a Canadian who is unemployed because of you? Immigrants need feeding, entertaining, they have money to spend. These things create jobs.

Oink

This sort of debate does remind one of the Imperial Banquet in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.

". . . you know very well that the country IS being ruined by foreigners."

"Why, even 'ere in Mugsborough,' chimed in Sawkins . . .- 'We're overrun with 'em! Nearly all the waiters and the cook at the Grand Hotel where we was working last month is foreigners.'

'Yes,' said old Joe Philpot, tragically, 'and then thers all them Hitalian horgin grinders, an' the blokes wot sells 'ot chestnuts; an' wen I was goin' 'ome last night I see a lot of them Frenchies sellin' hunions, an' a little wile afterwards I met two more of 'em comin' up the street with a bear.'

Tony_Tiger

Well in answer to your question. The simplified answer I would say is no. I don't see Canadians unemployed because of me. The labour market is different. Its controlled. To be frank, there are hardly any people here.
An example.
My extended family here used to run three businesses. I managed three of them. The biggest problem we had in Calgary was that there is not enough people. Recruiting was a nightmare. So we recruited foreign workers. But to do so we had to meet strict Canadian conditions to do so. Now once we wanted to renew work permits, we had to get approval (ie labour market opinion). Its tough. When the recession hit, we had to let the foreign workers go as we could not renew the work permits for some. We had to recruit canadians. Not a problem as the economic conditions had changed. It was a bit easier to recruit Canadians. We had more responses with applicants when the economy was down.

Now in London. Its not controlled. Its unbalanced.

Your argument that foreign workers need feeding, entertaining etc. I see your point but its not a strong argument. The flaw I see in your argument is that foreign workers/immigrants spend. They don't. Lets break it down.
How much of the cash flow remains in the UK? If I work cash flow remains in the UK. Money circulates. Foreign workers may not keep the money in the UK.
Secondly they may spend, but as i mentioned, what is the cost of them working and balanced with me being out of work. There is a social and economic cost. Is it really creating jobs, or it is just taking my place when I would be spending cash instead?

Foreign workers are generally savers not spenders. Foreign workers/immigrants do have benefits if controlled to meet the needs of the labour market. . (My example above). This is something that is not happening.

If we take your argument that immigration creates jobs. Lets take it a bit further and open the borders to the whole world. Going by your argument of job creation, millions of people could come to the UK and flood the labour market , lots of jobs could be created and hence perhaps we could have full employment and everyone is happy. Reality is it does not work like that.

The ones you mentioned i.e feeding, entertaining, they have money to spend etc they are called tourists.

I wrote to my local MP(Labour) highlighting my unemployment situation for over a year when I came back to the UK. He stated statistically for every foreign worker coming to the UK, three jobs are created in Europe for British workers. That was his position. I was happy to argue it as I though it was a load of tosh.
I made an appointment and I met him in person. (Very nice chap I must say)he said unofficially the foreign worker/immigration problem is a big issue in London as companies are not giving British workers a chance. He is aware of it. Be cant say so officially.

Alan2005

TL;DR: Immigration is bad, except when it's me cos I create jobs.

Do you think there are less jobs now than there was before EU open borders? If you did you'd be wrong.

Shard

The crucial point continually being missed here is the word control.
Perhaps your are reading it as refusing when in fact it relates to the rate of immigration.

To clarify replace the term uncontrolled immigration with rapid immigration. THAT is the issue.

Immigration does lead to growth, but it is an external impact on the economy and if too rapid creates some unpleasant shocks. Jobs (and replacement jobs) are not created the instant the immigrants roll off Heathrow. It takes time, often years. Hospitals are not suddenly commissioned and paid for, there is a transition period where existing hospitals are stretched and then planned and then eventually paid for. Those British workers who have been undercut or out-competed by new immigrants don't walk into new jobs, they end up on the dole for a while, may retrain or under-employ themselves. Hardship occurs in a big way.

Eventually the economy does adjust and individuals circumstances adjust. It really depends how much volatility the country and individuals are willing to accept. That's the reason to control is important, because the country can slow down the rate of immigration and manage the absorption of new people.

Alan2005

Controlled immigration? I'm not sure what that even means in the context of immigration from other EU countries by people that are legally allowed to come and work in the UK. Are you saying that immigration by citizens of other member states within the EU has been bad for the UK economy or not?

Shard

Well that gets back to the whole point of this thread: whether the commitment to the EU (of which citizen mobility is one aspect) is in Britain's best interests or not. Jobs is one aspect, access to public services is another, cost of building new public services another, lack of housing another, lots of issues to consider. I don't think it's binary choice of has EU immigration made the economy better or not. Especially since that's not something that even can be determined.

Alan2005

Yes it is. Is it "Better" or "Not Better".

Of course it can. You're posting in this thread, so you should have an opinion. What is your view?

Shard

You can measure how the economy has grown and the state of public finances based on what has happened, but you can't measure the growth based on what has not happened.

On balance, I would say the immigration we had did benefit the economy. It happened during the time of a great boom, and comfortable finances. Things have changed a little since 2008. Do I think Britain should have zero control over the number of EU migrants who want to come to this overcrowded island, no. I think it is attractive destination or stepping stone for many Europe, and I think Britain should be able to regulate that flow.

Alan2005

True, but you can say that about many government policies.

Things have changed since 2008, yes. But the "good" thing about workers from other EU countries is that they do productive work, and when the economy goes wrong they tend to go home again. They are, for the most part, the kind of immigrant that most countries welcome.

jimf

It probably suits Germany to have UK in the EU. If that's the case that's what will happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...t-deepens.html