Shard

Hey, my poll worked. I used to be a Yes...I'm tending more toward No now...but would like a quick referendum and a full national debate.

Almost Canadian

I think it was a political experiment that, for the most part, has worked well but which the average Joe on the street simply doesn't understand sufficiently to be able to make a reasonable choice.

"Brussels this and Brussels that" is all I recall the media reporting in the UK, even though most of the best legislation came from Brussels.

I think it should remain in (but not sign up for the Euro). I have no idea how things will play out if the Tories win the next election.

Shard

I agree. Though lack of sovereignty in a situation of economic or political distress would be tough to bear. Witness Greece now, falling apart at the hands of Franco-German austerity. And I suspect that fiscal union is inevitable in the future. The kid of EU that Britain wants is probably not on offer.

Almost Canadian

Greece is reaping what it sowed. The Greeks only have themselves to blame.

Again, the lack of sovereignty argument is, IMO, a weak one. The politicians in the various jurisdictions are the ones that put forward and implement policy at the European level too. Opt outs are available.

A very large number of the electorate don't bother voting in their local elections. For them to then complain about lack of sovereignty is a tad hypocritical.

From what I have been reading in the international press, it does not appear that the Tories' intentions are as unobtainable as you suggest. Time will tell.

Shard

The Greeks certainly are reaping what they sowed. Nevertheless, the breakdown of society there, and rising racism is worrying in a European context.

I don't think sovereignty is a weak argument; it is precisely because opt outs are becoming increasingly resisted by the EU members that the issue is arising. Speak to the Quebecers, Scots or Catalans about how feasible it is to reclaim sovereignty once relinquished!

Steve_

Interesting comment, didn't think anyone would say that but that was what I was going to say.

Yes, let's leave the EU because Parliament does such an excellent job...

Not that it is directly related to the EU, but I always think the Human Rights Act 1998 is the best illustration.

So the UK basically had to join up to the European Convention on Human Rights, it was one of the early signatories, before joining the EEC and the ECHR was originally dreamt up to stop civil rights abuses that had occurred before and during WW2.

However it was very difficult to get a case to the ECHR and sometimes the ECHR would rule against what were seen as UK interests, for example ruling that sentencing "at the Queen's pleasure" was a violation of civil rights (which it clearly was).

The tories being paranoid skeptics wouldn't incorporate the ECHR into UK law, so Labour did in 1998. And... then British courts started to rule against very stupid British laws, kudos to them. For example, electoral rolls being published without your consent.

And then even Labour while they were still in power started talking about amending the Act and the tories started talking about repealing it, even though it is an incredibly weak piece of legislation.

Well here's an idea - how about Parliament stops passing stupid laws that violate civil rights instead? Stop ASBOs, removing the right to remain silent, interfering with people's property, detaining people for lengthy periods without charges, letting Chief Constables issue dodgy search warrants, issuing "control orders" that violate all sorts of civil rights under the guise of anti-terrorism, interning people etc. ad naseum.

Almost Canadian

The vast majority of the useful rights employees/consumers have came from Europe. Take those away and you are left with: the laws that Canada has.

Almost Canadian

Sovereignty is not a weak argument for those that wield the power (the politicians), or for those that vote, but IMO it is weak argument for those that refuse to participate in elections.

I believe that the EU is reaching a tipping point whereby those States that have had a much more affluent existence will need to determine to what extent they really are prepared to subsidize those that have not had such affluence, but wish to attain it, and under what conditions. Throwing money and hoping those receiving it will spend it wisely simply hasn't worked.

Steve_

The Acquired Rights Directive. Probably the reason "cloud" computing will never be as popular as people seem to think it should be.

Have you read the Alberta Employment Standards Code? OMG.

Jingsamichty

I haven't voted in this poll because I really don't know if the UK would be better in or out. I can see merit in the arguments of both sides.

Ideally I think I'd like to see the UK remain in the EU, but with a radical review of what the real remit of the EU is. I wonder if anyone really foresaw the bloated and expensive beast that it has now become.

I would like to see a clear explanation of the powers of individual countries and the powers of the EU over them. I'm afraid I simply don't know enough about the real balance of power to be able to say whether the UK would be better off in or out, and I suspect I am very far from alone in that position - in itself, that's a sobering thought.

Shard

Ok, I see what you mean on the sovereignty point (some voters just using it as a blanket rejection).

Yes there is a kind of tipping point going on; it also applies to immigration within Europe (freedom of movement) and how shifting populations are being integrated. In this regard Britain will always be a popular destination because of the value inherent in being able to speak English. And, of course, our fine cuisine!

Shard

Err Jingy, it's not the ACTUAL referendum! just a poll on BE. Make your mind up and vote please!

I have exactly the same thoughts as you, by the way, so I know it's hard to decide. You'll have another chance, Just-Call-Me-Dave has said so...!

Almost Canadian

I only became aware of its structure as I had to study if for my law degree, it was an eye opener as, until then, I only had what the media gave me as my knowledge base.

This provides a relatively good explanation:

How does the EU work?

It was a similar eye opener when I studied UK constitutional and administrative law too. I am, quite frankly, amazed that such things are not taught in schools, as least to a basic level.

MarkG

The EU was always supposed to be a bloated, supernational government. If I remember correctly, even the cabinet papers from the 70s showed the government knew that when they were pushing for Britain to join the EEC, while claiming that it was nothing of the kind.

In the unlikely event that Cameron does actually give a referendum after backpedaling on his earlier promise, I'm sure the EU will follow their established policy of forcing people to vote again and again until they finally give the 'right' answer.

Almost Canadian

Will the UK care what the EU wants? It will simply amend the legislation that allowed it to become part of the EU in the first place; won't it? I can't believe (but accept I don't know) that the EU can prevent someone from leaving the club.